KFC
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| posted on 11/11/14 at 08:27 PM |
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Duratec 30 / Jag V6 bare weight kg??
Get all,
I'm doing an engine conversion on a Mazda RX8 and do have a mock up 2.5L V6 that I plan on putting in but asked the question about the best way
to get more power out of it, turbo, stroking it or supercharging it.
Someone mentioned about putting a 3.0L in as it would be a cheaper option. I measured some key points on a jag V6 that are critical on my build, the
difference is next to nothing so when people say the klde engine is tiny, it's only millimetres different at key points. What I don't know
is the bare weight of the duratec or jag V6 3.0L. The KL is 105kg bare, sump, manifolds, ignition, looms, pipe work the lot. Has anyone weighed their
engine? I'm looking at a honda V6 3.0L as well. I want to make the right decision. The aim of the power range I would like is 240bhp to 275bhp,
not 190bhp.
This klde is about to be weighed sitting on jacks without the sump, bare.
Bare klde engine.
klde rear
Jag V6 3.0L S-type
[Edited on 11/11/14 by KFC]
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40inches
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| posted on 11/11/14 at 11:46 PM |
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I weighed mine in at 140 kilos with some ancillaries, I have stripped the engine back now. If I weigh what I have taken off, then deduct from the 140,
would that be OK for you?
To be honest, if the difference is, say, 20/30 kilos I think the 240bhp and 220ish torques would more than take care of it 
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40inches
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| posted on 12/11/14 at 02:17 PM |
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I have weighed everything that I removed, the total was 16 kg = 124 kg
However, the engine still has the sump and lower injection manifold/fuel rail fitted, another 8/10 kg?
Looking at your photo of the KLDE, my AJ30 still has the cam chains and front cover fitted, although the cover is Magnesium, so not much weight there.
[Edited on 12-11-14 by 40inches]
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v8kid
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| posted on 12/11/14 at 02:32 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by 40inches
I have weighed everything that I removed, the total was 16 kg = 124 kg
However, the engine still has the sump and lower injection manifold/fuel rail fitted, another 8/10 kg?
Looking at your photo of the KLDE, my AJ30 still has the cam chains and front cover fitted, although the cover is Magnesium, so not much weight there.
[Edited on 12-11-14 by 40inches]
Plus the flywheel/flexplate weight to be deducted!
Not much difference in the weights really
Cheers!
You'd be surprised how quickly the sales people at B&Q try and assist you after ignoring you for the past 15 minutes when you try and start a
chainsaw
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KFC
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| posted on 12/11/14 at 03:35 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by 40inches
I have weighed everything that I removed, the total was 16 kg = 124 kg
However, the engine still has the sump and lower injection manifold/fuel rail fitted, another 8/10 kg?
Looking at your photo of the KLDE, my AJ30 still has the cam chains and front cover fitted, although the cover is Magnesium, so not much weight there.
[Edited on 12-11-14 by 40inches]
Ah that's brilliant! Thanks very much! I'll weigh my crank pulley and can belt assy with the sump to see what I get, I think it will be
around the 115kg mark. A good datum.
Thanks again. Oh, are you using megasquirt management to run it? Will you be able to adjust the rpm where the vtec or valve timing come on?
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KFC
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| posted on 12/11/14 at 09:37 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by v8kid
quote:
Originally posted by 40inches
I have weighed everything that I removed, the total was 16 kg = 124 kg
However, the engine still has the sump and lower injection manifold/fuel rail fitted, another 8/10 kg?
Looking at your photo of the KLDE, my AJ30 still has the cam chains and front cover fitted, although the cover is Magnesium, so not much weight there.
[Edited on 12-11-14 by 40inches]
Plus the flywheel/flexplate weight to be deducted!
Not much difference in the weights really
Cheers!
What, mine or the Jag? I never weighed the jag V6 that you see in the piucture. For my klde I weighed the timing belt assy/ pulleys ect, sump and
crank pulley. So my original weight was 105kg and the added weight is 7.9kg, that makes it rounded up to 113kg. There's nothing on the engine,
no thermostat housing, flywheel. What is included in the photo is the timing belt assy/ pulleys ect, sump and crank pulley.
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KFC
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| posted on 12/11/14 at 10:01 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by 40inches
I weighed mine in at 140 kilos with some ancillaries, I have stripped the engine back now. If I weigh what I have taken off, then deduct from the 140,
would that be OK for you?
To be honest, if the difference is, say, 20/30 kilos I think the 240bhp and 220ish torques would more than take care of it
Yeah, agreed, 10 to 20 kgs more with a difference of 50 to 60 bhp!!
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DIY Si
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| posted on 13/11/14 at 07:06 PM |
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Since you won't be wanting your underpowered KLDE any more, I'll give you a tenner to take it off your hands!
“Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War
My new blog: http://spritecave.blogspot.co.uk/
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KFC
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| posted on 13/11/14 at 07:54 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DIY Si
Since you won't be wanting your underpowered KLDE any more, I'll give you a tenner to take it off your hands!
I paid £100 for it and it has 195psi accross the board so it's a good one, no thanks cheapo! Ha ha. I'm keeping it now as I found a
fundamental problem engine mounting points! Way too high on both 3.0L engines. Exhaust can not be fitted as well.
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KFC
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| posted on 13/11/14 at 10:50 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DIY Si
Since you won't be wanting your underpowered KLDE any more, I'll give you a tenner to take it off your hands!
I have to keep the klde now, this is why.
This is where the mounting plates are going because of the exhaust manifold and available threaded holes.
This is the Jag engine with the same position.
[img] [/img]
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v8kid
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| posted on 14/11/14 at 03:43 AM |
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What's wrong with the four holes just above?
You'd be surprised how quickly the sales people at B&Q try and assist you after ignoring you for the past 15 minutes when you try and start a
chainsaw
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KFC
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| posted on 14/11/14 at 07:06 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by v8kid
What's wrong with the four holes just above?
The mount is directly in the way of the exhaust manifold and the threaded holes are all above the 3 holes of the engine mount. I've made wooden
mock up adapter plates to bolt on the engine then the factory mount bolts into the plate. My design has all the engine threaded holes in between the 3
mount holes, the 3.0L jag or honda has the threaded holes above and outside the 3 engine mount holes. Way too springy and unsafe, bad engineering
practice. Just wouldn't work. I'll do another sketch to show what I mean.
[Edited on 14/11/14 by KFC]
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Nickp
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| posted on 14/11/14 at 07:20 AM |
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TBH it doesn't look like good engineering practice to have the engine mounts as low as you're proposing on the KLDE. I reckon you'll
need an extra mount or 2 towards the top of the engine to stop it from trying to rip itself off its mounts 
Personally I'd go Jag and make heavy steel adaptor plates (6mm+) that extend down to where you need them.
[Edited on 14/11/14 by Nickp]
[Edited on 14/11/14 by Nickp]
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40inches
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| posted on 14/11/14 at 09:13 AM |
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Not sure what you mean about the mounts, the standard Jag brackets are ally (light) and with the original hydraulic mounts are pretty low.
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KFC
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| posted on 14/11/14 at 09:13 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Nickp
TBH it doesn't look like good engineering practice to have the engine mounts as low as you're proposing on the KLDE. I reckon you'll
need an extra mount or 2 towards the top of the engine to stop it from trying to rip itself off its mounts
Personally I'd go Jag and make heavy steel adaptor plates (6mm+) that extend down to where you need them.
[Edited on 14/11/14 by Nickp]
[Edited on 14/11/14 by Nickp]
If you mean me, KFC (Kev From Canada) then the adapter plates would be 290mm long? That doesn't sound good to me. I just thought if it would fit
the same then I would change it. I have a lot of parts made for the klde, a lot of work to change it for more power when the alternative would be
bolting on a supercharger.
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DIY Si
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| posted on 14/11/14 at 09:31 AM |
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How steep are your planned mounts? Whilst not ideal, I had to fit my mounts roughly as low as yours, but mine are quite steep in an attempt to control
the engine.
I also don't have much choice over where to fit the mounts, as I am rather limited on space in my Sprite. At least the KL has a good stiff block
that can let you get away with something other than ideal for the mounts. Equally, I won't be too surprised if I have to fit another mount
somewhere near the top of the block.
“Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War
My new blog: http://spritecave.blogspot.co.uk/
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KFC
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| posted on 14/11/14 at 11:11 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by 40inches
Not sure what you mean about the mounts, the standard Jag brackets are ally (light) and with the original hydraulic mounts are pretty low.
That looks nice but I'm not re-designing my engine mounts, if I was starting from scratch or minimal mods to what I've already done then I
would. My chassis av mount will sit around 170mm to 200mm below those. It would mean a lot of work to sort it on the RX8 chassis. I might have to run
a strut brace further up the engine to compensated for my low mounts. Where did you get that exhaust? Looks a nice tidy configuration!
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40inches
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| posted on 14/11/14 at 08:25 PM |
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Manifold from here,
ebay
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v8kid
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| posted on 15/11/14 at 08:42 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by 40inches
Manifold from here,
ebay
Can't find it there how much was it?
Cheers!
You'd be surprised how quickly the sales people at B&Q try and assist you after ignoring you for the past 15 minutes when you try and start a
chainsaw
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40inches
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| posted on 15/11/14 at 10:50 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by v8kid
quote:
Originally posted by 40inches
Manifold from here,
ebay
Can't find it there how much was it?
Cheers!
£199 delivered. eBay
Can't find any for the S-Type, but all the parts are there to modify. A problem with the S-Type is that the oil filter mounting is used as an
engine mounting So either the oil filter needs to be remotely mounted, or use the S-Type cast iron manifolds.
I went for the Bling factor
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v8kid
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| posted on 15/11/14 at 11:15 AM |
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Ha! You anticipated my next question my thoughts were similar.
1. Is the 2.5 manifold big enough (pipe diameter) for the 3.0 and are the exhaust ports the same size - I assume so
2. Are you going to be plumbing in an oil cooler? The jag has a thermostatically controlled one but that is when it is dragging a heavy body about -
does it really need an oil cooler for a lighter car? I.E. Can i not bother with the oil cooler.
3. The mounting that's used as an oil filter connection has 3 bolts one of which appears to be the oil connection by the size of it ( I
haven't taken it off yet) I planned to use one of the A/C mounting holes as 2 fixings seemed to be to be too few. Thoughts?
Cheers!
You'd be surprised how quickly the sales people at B&Q try and assist you after ignoring you for the past 15 minutes when you try and start a
chainsaw
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KFC
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| posted on 15/11/14 at 11:17 AM |
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I think most transverse mounted engine converted to longitudinal you'll have problems. I have to remote mount my oil filter housing on the
klde.
Right...... Garage time...
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40inches
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| posted on 15/11/14 at 09:36 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by v8kid
Ha! You anticipated my next question my thoughts were similar.
1. Is the 2.5 manifold big enough (pipe diameter) for the 3.0 and are the exhaust ports the same size - I assume so
2. Are you going to be plumbing in an oil cooler? The jag has a thermostatically controlled one but that is when it is dragging a heavy body about -
does it really need an oil cooler for a lighter car? I.E. Can i not bother with the oil cooler.
3. The mounting that's used as an oil filter connection has 3 bolts one of which appears to be the oil connection by the size of it ( I
haven't taken it off yet) I planned to use one of the A/C mounting holes as 2 fixings seemed to be to be too few. Thoughts?
Cheers!
The exhaust ports are the same, and primaries are 38mm into 50mm so more than enough for 1.5 litres a side 
Not sure about an oil cooler, wouldn't think it will need one, but I am fitting an oil temp gauge, just to be sure.
I have used the original filter based mount, but have cut off the oil cooler/filter housing and threaded the ports to take
1/2 BSPP fittings. You can see the connections in the photo between the mount and exhaust down pipe.
Good luck unscrewing the large banjo bolt on the engine mount. That is one tight mother
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KFC
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| posted on 16/11/14 at 01:10 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DIY Si
How steep are your planned mounts? Whilst not ideal, I had to fit my mounts roughly as low as yours, but mine are quite steep in an attempt to control
the engine.
I also don't have much choice over where to fit the mounts, as I am rather limited on space in my Sprite. At least the KL has a good stiff block
that can let you get away with something other than ideal for the mounts. Equally, I won't be too surprised if I have to fit another mount
somewhere near the top of the block.
This my mock up adapter plate in wood that will be finalized in ally. You can see how low they are so I probably will need a top strut brace to help
support the engine vibration. I can't change the height of of where the mount bolts onto the av mount.
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Ugg10
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| posted on 16/11/14 at 03:42 PM |
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If you have access to a cad system and can draw this up then I can recommend Lasermaster in Redruth to get it cut. I have access to autocad, this has
a feature for importing images so for my mounts I scanned the card template part with a ruler in the image, cropped the image to a set dimension,
imported it, scaled it and then drew around it. Just send of the dwg file, qoted in a couple of days, part arrived within the week. Great service.
Gearbox mount, two engine mount plates, two large washers (part of engine mount assembly), infill parts for exhaust/collector welding - 5mm mild
steel
Inlet throttle body adapter plate - 10mm aluminium
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1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com
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