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Author: Subject: EU Referendum II
JoelP

posted on 25/6/16 at 10:03 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
quote:
Originally posted by joneh
Not limited to the leave campaign, they're all the same. The uneducated, nationalists and old have just handed complete power to a bunch of lying bankers.


Must be a very strange place you inhabit with that world view. So, to paraphrase, anyone who doesn't agree with you is stupid, a racist and old and now the bankers are in charge (who lie)

Well as an Old Stupid Racist (allegedly on the last two) I can tell you this is the last thing the 'lying bankers' wanted.




He inhabits reality. If you look at the demographics, this vote was won by the old and the uneducated.

Do you have a degree?





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02GF74

posted on 25/6/16 at 10:09 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
No serious politician on either side wants to sort out the mess, .



Please someone tell me what mess we are in? Friday was a normal day and Monday I expect will be the same as will the rest of the week.

Ignorance and racism won. I think it was the wrong decision but the common market which UK signed up to in 1974 (?) had mutated into something no longer acceptable and successive government weren't able or unwilling to stand up to it.

There is no reason for anything to change in the short term, long term wise we will end up paying more e.g. import tax, VAT when buying from Europe, pay for visas to travel etc than if we had remained but it is a wake up call to the beauracrats who run the EU that something is not right.





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jeffw

posted on 26/6/16 at 04:14 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JoelP

He inhabits reality. If you look at the demographics, this vote was won by the old and the uneducated.

Do you have a degree?


Since when did a degree define education? If you look at the voting 9 out of 12 regions voted to leave, basically everyone except London, Scotland & NI. I'm pretty sure there are educated people outside of these regions.

[Edited on 26/6/16 by jeffw]






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mark chandler

posted on 26/6/16 at 06:31 AM Reply With Quote
"If you look at the demographics, this vote was won by the old and the uneducated."

Jez, what a narrow minded view, thanks for that! Average intelligence is the same whatever age you are once grown up, older tend to have more common sense, it's called life experience!

i cannot remember ever not being in the common market, I work with lots of mixed race people and we off-shore loads of work, the Indian and Pakistan workers that come over need Visa's, it is not a problem for them although the majority exist at the end of a piece of wire. If you want to work abroad what is wrong with having a few controls, it does not stop you if you have a plan and not a criminal record.

For myself I have only met the hard working Polish/Romanian/German/Spanish/Italian etc. And they are all lovely, I have also met plenty of lazy native British and I know which ones I would want as my neighbors.

i voted on the 'take back control", nothing to do with race or money apportionment, the remit and direction has exceeded the goal of a common market, even they admit to much meddling in other countries affairs.

All this bull about workers directives, minimum wages etc, the U.K. Has always been a leading light and I am sure we will continue to be so.

Let's flip your comment on its head, "the election was lost by the young and the clever" does not make much sense either does it?

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Phil_1471

posted on 26/6/16 at 08:00 AM Reply With Quote
Erm.... Wasn't this petition set up before the actual result? Back work the dates.... Making it void?





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Sam_68

posted on 26/6/16 at 08:10 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 02GF74
Please someone tell me what mess we are in? Friday was a normal day


Put simply, it was a normal day in which the pound lost more value that it ever had before (at least since leaving the gold standard - twice as much as Black Wednesday), and hundreds of £billions were wiped off the value of UK companies.

It was a normal day just like the one that started the Great Depression in 1930's America, in other words.

And the instability is going to be there until at least some time after the actual Brexit has been negotiated and implemented, accompanied by a number of very complex political problems that may now drag on for many years more (Scotland and NI, for a start).

I think British Trident has pretty much summed it up: as a politician, you'd have to be a complete idiot to want to take on this particular poison chalice.

Congratulations to that 52% of the UK voters who chose to walk us off the edge of an economic and political cliff, but that's democracy and we now have to abide by and live with the outcome.

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ballcock

posted on 26/6/16 at 09:39 AM Reply With Quote
I find it strange to see so many members on this topic against leaving the EU. If the EU had its way no one on this forum would be able to build their own car and run it on the road, or modify other vehicles to their own use without jumping through so many hoops it would not be worth while. I voted to leave an undemocratic union that does our country no justice. Yes there are benefits belonging to the EU but there are far more restrictions. As for democracy if the younger age group feel they have been shafted by the elders they have the ability in the future to build a stronger unified Europe under a different leader ship rather than the existing system. Other Europeen countries might be willing to join an association with the uk which challenges the faults of the present administration. As for Scotland wanting a second out referendum because the majority voted to stay. The same system of democracy that has voted out of Europe also gave them a greater no of Westminster seats than other parties with a larger percentage of the vote. Hope fully we can take the UK to greater hights than whilst being in Europe. Yes it will be a challenge but what have we got to loose, if we had voted to remain in Europe they would have forced more of their policies on us as we would not be in a position to fight back. So forget the bickering and get on with the future.
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02GF74

posted on 26/6/16 at 01:00 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
quote:
Originally posted by 02GF74
Please someone tell me what mess we are in? Friday was a normal day


Put simply, it was a normal day in which the pound lost more value that it ever had before (at least since leaving the gold standard - twice as much as Black Wednesday), and hundreds of £billions were wiped off the value of UK companies.

It was a normal day just like the one that started the Great Depression in 1930's America, in other words.

And the instability is going to be there until at least some time after the actual Brexit has been negotiated and implemented, accompanied by a number of very complex political problems that may now drag on for many years more (Scotland and NI, for a start).

I think British Trident has pretty much summed it up: as a politician, you'd have to be a complete idiot to want to take on this particular poison chalice.

Congratulations to that 52% of the UK voters who chose to walk us off the edge of an economic and political cliff, but that's democracy and we now have to abide by and live with the outcome.


I am not expert here but I understood the ftse100 to be indicator of uk companies value, re:

The Financial Times Stock Exchange 100 Index is a share index of the 100 companies listed on the London Stock Exchange
with the highest market capitalization. It is seen as a gauge of prosperity for businesses regulated by UK company law.

Over the past year the ftse100 has been lower and has dropped before and nobody panicked.
Description
Description


It will go up and it will go down, let's see what happens over the coming week before we start running round like headless chickens screaming of doom and gloom. If we shout it loud enough, we will make it happen.

The smart people will turn the situation to the advantage.

A politician worth his salt would take on a crisis, not that I'm saying there is a crisis, not walk away from it.

What economic and political cliffs are you referring too? That's just scaremongering about what has not happened and no one really knows what will happen. And as for Scotland and NI leaving UK, let them go - where is the problem with that?

For better or for worse, the decision has been made so let's carry as best we can instead of being gloomy about the future.





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Slimy38

posted on 26/6/16 at 01:34 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 02GF74For better or for worse, the decision has been made so let's carry as best we can instead of being gloomy about the future.


Hear hear!!

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Sam_68

posted on 26/6/16 at 01:39 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 02GF74 And as for Scotland and NI leaving UK, let them go - where is the problem with that?


Well, for a start, do you seriously think that NI could leave the UK without the whole sectarian thing kicking off again and a lot of people getting killed?

But presumable you're cool with the idea of people dying, so long as you've got a warm glow of satisfaction from only havingto take orders from a political elite in Westminster instead of a political elite in Brussels?

The latest is that Nicola Sturgeon is saying that the Scottish Parliament would have a veto on exit , anyway, so that's another little treat for any politician 'worth their salt' to have to deal with.

Even Cameron is reported as having said (off camera) that he doesn't see why he should have to be the one to deal with the sh1t that has been voted upon us by people to stupid to recognize the full implications. Why would anyone take on that much grief, for the relatively low salary that goes along with being PM?

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mark chandler

posted on 26/6/16 at 02:12 PM Reply With Quote
"the sh1t that has been voted upon us by people to stupid to recognize the full implications"

And around we go again ! So anyone that goes against what you wanted is by default stupid?

Pity the clever people did not get there poo together to make the vote go the other way then.

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steve m

posted on 26/6/16 at 03:08 PM Reply With Quote
"Pity the clever people did not get there poo together to make the vote go the other way then."

Absolutely !!


Its a shame there are so many loser's that want their ball back because they lost to a democratic vote

If they wanted to stay in, perhaps they should of tried harder, not whinge whinge whinge after the votes have been counted
as its a bit late

72 % of the UK population of voters voted of which 52% voted for us to leave, and EVERY single one of those voter's got it wrong ? No, they didn't, they voted for what they believe and wanted,

The other 48 % who also wanted their say, also made a statement, but lost, but at least they tried the very best

What about the other missing 28% ? who didn't bother to vote ? they are the ones both sides should target, as no vote at all, means either a undecided decision or "who gives a poo Neanderthals", who do not care

I had a few friends who were in the undecided camp, at least they were honest (I think)

I will agree that as a nation, a 52/48 split is very close call, but... any more than 50.01% is a win

I am very happy with the decision, and what I voted for, however if it had gone the other way, would I be complaining,
no, I would take it as what will be will be,

steve





Thats was probably spelt wrong, or had some grammer, that the "grammer police have to have a moan at




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britishtrident

posted on 26/6/16 at 03:08 PM Reply With Quote
Leaving the EU is also going to cause immense problems over Gibraltar, and don't be amazed if the Argies don't take support from that an cause trouble in the South Atlantic.





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BenB

posted on 26/6/16 at 03:57 PM Reply With Quote
What's interesting about the suggestion of a second referendum is that the two fairly prominent sources of support for the idea are

1) Farage saying the week prior to the vote that if it was close (and even quoted 52/48) it "wouldn't be the end"
2) The "2nd referendum" petition was actually started by a "leave" supporter

When both of these occured it was looking likely they were going to lose. So when the leave camp think they were going to lose they were all banging on about how if it was close there should be a re-vote. Now they've won it's a different story! In fact the leave camp as a whole have been fairly quiet in the last few days!

Fact is there isn't going to be one. At a time of uncertainty any wavering would be disasterous for the economy which (whether we like it or not) we're all rather relient on. The result of dithering could be even worse than that of leaving.

Truth is that many people who voted for leave didn't know the basis on which they were voting. Same as when Boris became mayor of London- it was mostly a protest vote against Ken Livingston! If you asked people what his policies were they have no idea and still don't. Most know "Boris bikes", ignoring the fact that that was one of the last things Ken actually initiated and had basically nothing to do with Boris. I'm not saying that all people who voted Remain are aware of the facts either- I suspect much of it was "I'm alright Jack".

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Sam_68

posted on 26/6/16 at 05:13 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by steve m
I will agree that as a nation, a 52/48 split is very close call, but... any more than 50.01% is a win

I am very happy with the decision, and what I voted for, however if it had gone the other way, would I be complaining,
no, I would take it as what will be will be...



Yes, as I posted above that's democracy and we have to abide by the result.

I'm certainly not suggesting that there should be another referendum. Though I suspect that if there were, having now had a chance to see even just the tip of the iceberg on the real implications, it probably would go the other way - I was over in a part of the country that voted overwhelmingly for Brexit for the last couple of days, and I've seen a lot of shocked I'm-sorry-I-didn't-mean-to-break-it responses from people who had seen the initial outcome.

But neither am I willing to stick my head in the sand and pretend that everything will now be rosy if only we pull together, because that's nonsense - it's created a bloody mess that will take decades to sort out and that will be to the permanent detriment of this country.

We're in for a very rocky ride and if you voted out you're going to have to get used to many years of 'I told you so' from the almost-half of the population who could plainly see that it really wasn't such a clever idea, and a lot more complex than 'wouldn't it be good if we could stop taking orders from Brussels and keep the immigrants out'.

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steve m

posted on 26/6/16 at 05:27 PM Reply With Quote
No one I know voted out, is regretting it, infact the opposite





Thats was probably spelt wrong, or had some grammer, that the "grammer police have to have a moan at




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Sam_68

posted on 26/6/16 at 05:46 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by steve m
No one I know voted out, is regretting it, in fact the opposite


Really?

Well, perhaps they're just not admitting it yet?

There was a definite mood of 'Oh, f***, what have we done?!' in rural Lincolnshire.

Though given that I was among an agricultural economy that relies almost totally on eastern European transient labour, that's possibly not surprising. More surprising that they voted so overwhelmingly 'out' in the first place, when to leave would be so obviously cutting their own throats. Boston (Lincs) will be a ghost town, and the crops will be rotting in the fields and glasshouses if all the Poles go home... so you can expect a big hike in food prices, too, if they have to pay enough to attract lazy English people to do the job on UK produce and a 4% import tarriff on EU produce.

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Sam_68

posted on 26/6/16 at 05:54 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by steve m...however if it had gone the other way, would I be complaining,
no, I would take it as what will be will be.


Incidentally, are you aware that the big 'second referendum' petitions was actually set up by a Brexiteer?:

Ooops!

Apparently he started his campaign of complaint just a wee bit too early!

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BenB

posted on 26/6/16 at 06:08 PM Reply With Quote
I suspect a few brexiters have had that "oh sh!t" moment- that pit of the stomach sinking feeling- the kind you have when you honk a car for cutting you up and shout at them to f off and then realise it's a police car When you wince slightly and hope you haven't completely right royally screwed yourself over. The "it seemed a good idea at the time" thing.
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BenB

posted on 26/6/16 at 06:16 PM Reply With Quote
.... like that moment when you painfully come round after a heavy night out to find you had a Prince Albert done in a peak of youthful exuberance and nothing seems to work anymore and you think "WTF have I just done"?

Okay, that analogy not working for anyone else?

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rusty nuts

posted on 26/6/16 at 06:16 PM Reply With Quote
This country is supposed to be a democracy , we have just had a democratic vote , if you don't like it then go and live in a dictatorship and see how you like that . In or out we should accept whichever way the vote went and make the best of it.
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Sam_68

posted on 26/6/16 at 06:26 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rusty nuts
This country is supposed to be a democracy , we have just had a democratic vote , if you don't like it then go and live in a dictatorship and see how you like that . In or out we should accept whichever way the vote went and make the best of it.
.

Wind yer neck in.

Nobody on this thread - on either side - is suggesting that we should disregard the democratic result.

But a democracy also means that we have the right to debate that result, and that we are NOT obliged to make the best of it - you might not like it, but we have the democratic right to argue that a bad decision has been taken.

If you want an election where the choice is not open to question and the outcome is always right, there are a number of 'Democratic Republics' in West Africa that come (not very) highly recommended.

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steve m

posted on 26/6/16 at 06:26 PM Reply With Quote
Exactly Rusty

But Sam thinks better

But of coarse we all know this is Sam's forum, as he has an opinion on everything, and hes always right

NOT, he's a clown,





Thats was probably spelt wrong, or had some grammer, that the "grammer police have to have a moan at




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Sam_68

posted on 26/6/16 at 06:37 PM Reply With Quote
Incidentally, this country is NOT a democracy.

It's a 'Parliamentary Democracy', which is a euphemism (not unlike those 'Democratic Republics' ) for an oligarchy; just that they've managed to fool most of the people into thinking that the ability to vote for one of two ruling cliques once every 4 years gives them a real say in things.

The one undeniable thing in the referendum's favour is that it was a very rare opportunity for the electorate to genuinely decide upon a single, clear issue.

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phelpsa

posted on 26/6/16 at 06:42 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by steve m
Exactly Rusty

But Sam thinks better

But of coarse we all know this is Sam's forum, as he has an opinion on everything, and hes always right

NOT, he's a clown,


Sam, like most on here, posts mainly on topics about which he is reasonably knowledgeable and experienced, and hence is usually right.

The problem with a referendum is that it gives the nation the opportunity to have a say on something about which 90% know virtually nothing.

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