JC
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| posted on 4/2/18 at 07:04 PM |
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I have commented saying pretty much the same - I suggest everyone does the same. I also pointed out that we are 'recycling' engines that
had they been left in the donor vehicle, would be required t meet a lower standard.
I'm not sure whether my 1.25 Zetec Se (1995) will pass - I have deleted the oil breather recirculation gubbins....
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PorkChop
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| posted on 4/2/18 at 07:41 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by gremlin1234
quote:
Originally posted by PorkChop
quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
Does the proposal means Euro6 or later emission? Or do they just want post '92 engines to be used in future IVA submissions?
No, it does not; it tells you this in section 4.10.
You can fit any engine if you can get it to meet the limits.
as far as I can tell the proposed limits will be the current MOT limits (and after 20 May '18 mot changes too)
Which is what has already been said.
Unless there is something I've missed, a change in the emissions limits is not part of the proposed MOT changes, so why are you bringing it up?
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gremlin1234
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| posted on 4/2/18 at 07:47 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by PorkChop
Unless there is something I've missed, a change in the emissions limits is not part of the proposed MOT changes, so why are you bringing it up?
because its important to know that its not changing. and what the limits will actually be.
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PorkChop
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| posted on 4/2/18 at 07:56 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by gremlin1234
quote:
Originally posted by PorkChop
Unless there is something I've missed, a change in the emissions limits is not part of the proposed MOT changes, so why are you bringing it up?
because its important to know that its not changing. and what the limits will actually be.
I agree that it's important to know, that is not what you said nor insinuated in your previous post.
[Edited on 4/2/18 by PorkChop]
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gremlin1234
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| posted on 4/2/18 at 08:46 PM |
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apologies, I might have been clearer had I written:
...current MOT limits (and these don't change with the 20 May 2018 updates )
rather than
...current MOT limits (and after 20 May '18 mot changes too)
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mikeb
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| posted on 4/2/18 at 08:54 PM |
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Assuming this goes through, when would it be applied. I’m nearly ready for IVA on carbs
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jps
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| posted on 5/2/18 at 06:30 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mikeb
Assuming this goes through, when would it be applied. I’m nearly ready for IVA on carbs
The consultation doc is not clear on when the kit car element comes in. But May 18 is referred to on one of the links Craig provided.
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mikeb
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| posted on 5/2/18 at 09:56 AM |
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IVA paperwork going in this week!
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gremlin1234
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| posted on 5/2/18 at 11:05 AM |
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page 15 secn 4.6
quote:
4.6 We are proposing to apply the new WLTP cycle for vehicles approved via IVA
with effect for vehicles whose manufacture is completed on or after 1 July 2018.
This earlier (than NSSTA) date for IVA is to encourage manufacturers to
transition to the new cycle as soon as possible.
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craigdiver
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| posted on 5/2/18 at 11:40 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by gremlin1234
page 15 secn 4.6
quote:
4.6 We are proposing to apply the new WLTP cycle for vehicles approved via IVA
with effect for vehicles whose manufacture is completed on or after 1 July 2018.
This earlier (than NSSTA) date for IVA is to encourage manufacturers to
transition to the new cycle as soon as possible.
So if I IVA my haynes roadster with BMW (year 2000) euro 3 engine after this date it will fail on emissions?
If it ain't broken, fix it anyway (just because).
Building - BMW powered Haynes Roadster/442E hybrid.
Volvo C30 T5 Polestar
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jps
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| posted on 5/2/18 at 01:03 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by gremlin1234
page 15 secn 4.6
quote:
4.6 We are proposing to apply the new WLTP cycle for vehicles approved via IVA
with effect for vehicles whose manufacture is completed on or after 1 July 2018.
This earlier (than NSSTA) date for IVA is to encourage manufacturers to
transition to the new cycle as soon as possible.
But 4.10 starts by saying that "4.10 Kit cars and reconstructed classic cars undergoing IVA will not be required to meet WLTP". So it is
not clear that the date of 1 July 2018 applies to the proposed change for kits as they won't have to meet WLTP - and 4.6 is about WLTP applying
to vehilces approved via IVA....
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JonBowden
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| posted on 5/2/18 at 01:05 PM |
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It seems to me that there are two key issues for us.
Point 1
If we are forced to use the latest emissions standards in force at the time of IVA, then this may be very difficult.
It will probably force us to use new or nearly new engines.
Imagine a situation where one of us starts to build a car using a nearly new engine that meets current standards. Three years later, the car is ready
for IVA but by that time, the standards may well have moved on.
I would suggest that ideally, there should be no change and that the emissions standards appropriate to the engine should be applied. Failing that,
enforcing an older standard would allow us to have at least a chance of getting hold of suitable engines.
we shouldn't be required to comply with the latest standards - that seems impractical.
Point 2
The short implementation timescale would be very unfair.
I would suggest a MINIMUM of 2 years for a significant change along these lines.
Jon
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craigdiver
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| posted on 5/2/18 at 01:22 PM |
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This forum has 13,000+ registered members, should we submit a group response?
I think as other have said;
a) Give us time to finish our current builds - at least 24 months.
b) ????
c).......
If it ain't broken, fix it anyway (just because).
Building - BMW powered Haynes Roadster/442E hybrid.
Volvo C30 T5 Polestar
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Tinks1
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| posted on 5/2/18 at 01:29 PM |
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Now i'm confused ...... I have an MK Indy using a 1983 Ford Pinto, which was SVA'd and registered in 2009. Therefore under the new MOT
will I have to pass the emissions criteria for 2009?
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 5/2/18 at 01:31 PM |
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They'll not give any consideration to cars currently being built - anyone could claim that and get away for the next 2 years, and they
don't have time to assess each on merit.
I think we need to not knee-jerk at this, however I think you not only need a modern engine, but most of the emissions ancillaries and control
electronics, which makes it borderline impossible in this kind of vehicle. If the IVA updates with current MOT requirements, what we have today as a
pass criteria (isn't THAT hard to hit) may become really hard.
At what stage do you start needing charcoal canisters, full evap recirc systems, OEM-level tuning, cats with pre and post wideband etc..
They've recently started the 40 year rolling MOT exemption due to the small number of cars and high level of enthusiast care - this flies in the
face of that logic.
I'm in two minds.
[Edited on 5/2/18 by coyoteboy]
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JonBowden
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| posted on 5/2/18 at 01:49 PM |
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It's not consideration to cars being built, it's a straightforward delay of at least two years that's needed.
It is not reasonable to apply such a change with short notice (5 months is very short notice).
I also agree, requiring compliance with the moving target of current MOT standards is getting towards impossible.
We should be requesting either sticking with current engine based standards or require compliance with older standards.
Jon
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theduck
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| posted on 5/2/18 at 04:00 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by andyace
I agree with the above ... I too am in the middle of a Pinto build ... would cost me a fortune to switch now !!!!
a 24 month grace period sounds fair ... would also give me the kick up the arse to get it finished :-)
Have you got that motor in yet?!
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jps
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| posted on 5/2/18 at 04:11 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by theduck
quote:
Originally posted by andyace
I agree with the above ... I too am in the middle of a Pinto build ... would cost me a fortune to switch now !!!!
a 24 month grace period sounds fair ... would also give me the kick up the arse to get it finished :-)
Have you got that motor in yet?!
I don't know about Andy - but I put in 3 hours on the build last night as a consequence of this, will be looking to work on the car every week
day now if I can - and have negotiated with her-indoors to have 'until midday on a Sunday' every weekend - so i'll be putting in
some 4am Sunday starts until it is done now! Any bets on how quickly I can get mine finished??!!
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joneh
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| posted on 5/2/18 at 06:37 PM |
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Think I'll hold off spending £200 on bearings, rod bolts, rings and a timing chain for my xflow then. Plenty of other jobs to do in the
meantime.
Hopefully they'll give some notice as I've already spent 100s on this engine...
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andyace
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| posted on 5/2/18 at 06:39 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by theduck
quote:
Originally posted by andyace
I agree with the above ... I too am in the middle of a Pinto build ... would cost me a fortune to switch now !!!!
a 24 month grace period sounds fair ... would also give me the kick up the arse to get it finished :-)
Have you got that motor in yet?!
Lol .... the motor is in bits !! If anything this whole thing has speeded the build up and I too have been in the garage the last few nights, you may
have to start doing a video of my build, i'm sure between us we can put it together in a few weeks :-)
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theduck
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| posted on 5/2/18 at 07:51 PM |
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You know where I am if you need me!
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obfripper
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| posted on 5/2/18 at 08:44 PM |
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These rules will not be retrospective, however there is one change to the emissions requirements in regard to the draft mot manual as below;
**
Vehicles first used before 1 September 2002 fitted with a different engine must be tested to the requirements of whichever is older, the engine or the
vehicle. For example; a 1995 car fitted with a 1991 engine (of whatever make), must be tested to 1991 standards for emission purposes. The onus is on
the vehicle presenter to prove engine age.
Vehicles first used on or after 1 September 2002 fitted with a different engine must to tested to the requirements relating to the age of the
vehicle.
**
This second paragraph indicates that an engine change in a 01/09/2002> vehicle will fall under different rules to present.
With a Q plate or where the emissions are stated on the V5 this isn't a major problem, but an engine swap or original non cat engine without the
preceeding criteria it will default to a full cat test requirement.
I have emailed the DVSA regarding the lack of emission limits being present on a proportion of V5 logbooks, and whether it is feasable to formally
accept the MAC certificate type code as proof of emissions limits for a vehicle and state this in the mot manual (at present it is only a draft and
changes can be made).
This would simplify things for those who have incomplete V5 details, as the DVLA are slower than treacle in dealing with these things.
Dave
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PorkChop
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| posted on 5/2/18 at 09:03 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by JonBowden
Point 1
If we are forced to use the latest emissions standards in force at the time of IVA, then this may be very difficult.
It will probably force us to use new or nearly new engines.
Imagine a situation where one of us starts to build a car using a nearly new engine that meets current standards. Three years later, the car is ready
for IVA but by that time, the standards may well have moved on.
I would suggest that ideally, there should be no change and that the emissions standards appropriate to the engine should be applied. Failing that,
enforcing an older standard would allow us to have at least a chance of getting hold of suitable engines.
we shouldn't be required to comply with the latest standards - that seems impractical.
No it will not - did you read the proposal? Section 4.13 talks about Euro 1 engines being used, about which is a point I made in my first post on this
thread.
The most stringent MOT limits have not changed since 2002, and are not going to change in the near future.
I think this is being blown out of proportion a bit and people are getting confused; the people that really need to worry about this is those fitting
80s or earlier engines. As I said earlier, the DfT seems to have made the assumption that if you have a Euro 1 or later engine, then you have the
hardware to meet the 2002 MOT limits. This is an assumption I can understand, a big enough cat with enough precious metal, enough temperature and not
running rich should be enough to oxidise enough CO and HC to meet the limits.
To put it in perspective, I have a very early, pre Euro 1 MX5 engine (which does have a cat and EFi). I'm not overly concerned about the
proposals, it's just the exhaust line will need a bit of thought.
I would suggest that if anyone wants to feedback on the proposal, they do it individually. If there is a common thread to the feedback, then a group
response would mean that it will only come up once in the DfT's analysis.
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JC
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| posted on 6/2/18 at 07:18 AM |
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I think the confusion is over the limits....
Cars undergoing IVA will have to meet the current MOT emissions NOT production emissions.
At the moment, it ‘shouldn’t’ cause issues for any car with fuel injection, an ECU and a CAT........it’s mainly those who have not yet passed IVA who
are using carbs that will be affected.....probably 
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scootz
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| posted on 6/2/18 at 08:18 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by nelmo
I hate this sort of pointless regulation - is forcing a couple of hundred cars off the road going to save any polar bears? 
I hate this sort of pointless post.
We are living on a dying planet, and every little helps... even if it miffs big kids at play!
The universe does not revolve around me, myself, or I.
So we have to get with the emissions programme!? So what! Deal with it!
I agree, though, that the date for implementation should be such that it gives folks a reasonable amount of time to finish their part-builds under the
current emissions rules.
It's Evolution Baby!
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