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Author: Subject: Jag V6 dyno results (at last)
andygtt

posted on 11/10/19 at 06:03 AM Reply With Quote
I used to run a ford mondeo ST220 gearbox (that's what's fitted stock in the noble)... but Ive made an adapter plate and moved to a more modern box with beefier internals so I can release more torque (it was capped at around 630ftlb in the mod range). Not run the new box yet.

I developed a triple plate clutch to fit the engine, very light and responsive... so light it allows flat shifts going up (similar shift times to a sequential) but has to be heavily blipped going down as it drops to idle between shifts if you change normally. kinda tainted the driving experience on the road but I wasn't prepared to take a backwards step so am going DBW to control the down shifts and retain the awesome upshifts.

Its not a dyno queen engine either, totally usable the car does 0-150mph in sub 10 seconds... that's with no traction aids, which shows the spread of power and contrail nature of the engine.

I love this engine which is why i'm continuing to tweek it and find the best places to make more power for less boost.





Andy

please redefine your limits.

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RWD Focus

posted on 11/10/19 at 06:45 AM Reply With Quote
Hi Andy
You say you have developed a throttle body set up. What actual throttle bodies are you using?
Thank you
Richard






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andygtt

posted on 11/10/19 at 08:22 AM Reply With Quote
M3 throttle bodies with a carbon lower manifold to adapt from the ITB's to the head.





Andy

please redefine your limits.

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CosKev3

posted on 11/10/19 at 08:41 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by andygtt
I used to run a ford mondeo ST220 gearbox (that's what's fitted stock in the noble)... but Ive made an adapter plate and moved to a more modern box with beefier internals so I can release more torque (it was capped at around 630ftlb in the mod range). Not run the new box yet.

I developed a triple plate clutch to fit the engine, very light and responsive... so light it allows flat shifts going up (similar shift times to a sequential) but has to be heavily blipped going down as it drops to idle between shifts if you change normally. kinda tainted the driving experience on the road but I wasn't prepared to take a backwards step so am going DBW to control the down shifts and retain the awesome upshifts.

Its not a dyno queen engine either, totally usable the car does 0-150mph in sub 10 seconds... that's with no traction aids, which shows the spread of power and contrail nature of the engine.

I love this engine which is why i'm continuing to tweek it and find the best places to make more power for less boost.


Nice

Must agree on the power delivery,from the moment you touch the throttle to the rev limiter it's so linear, no torque spikes etc.

You've made the carbon parts yourself for ITBs?

Pics would be great please

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andygtt

posted on 11/10/19 at 09:03 AM Reply With Quote
there is a picture above of the carbon plenum I made... my whole car is carbon, just making a new dash ATM.

Really must stop playing with the noble and get back to the carbon capri... Im easily distracted with my hobby projects lol

I must admit i'm really looking forward to playing with the VVT on the jag heads, the ford ones were on the absolute limit at 8000rpm (due to the rockers but I never actually had a failure despite going to 8100rpm), I've gone dry sump so I can go higher with the jag ones (oil pump is the limitation on revs on the Jag BTW) but i'm not sure if the VVT is going to cope at those rev ranges.

The fact the stock engine with a decent intake and exhaust can go to 270-280bhp bodes well compared to the Ford heads that can't get close to that.

I get excited by threads like this by people bucking the trend and trying there own ideas... so many armchair experts when it comes to these areas its hard to sift the facts from the bull.





Andy

please redefine your limits.

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CosKev3

posted on 11/10/19 at 09:23 AM Reply With Quote
The VVT restricted top end power on mine,so now it comes on at 1800rpm and goes off at 5800rpm,rev limit set to 7100rpm and power was still climbing but mapper wasn't too keen to rev it higher!

My m8 has deleted the VVT,runs Piper cams and a 8500rpm rev limiter,running a dry sump system along with forged rods and pistons and Jenvey Itbs,that made 326bhp.

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andygtt

posted on 11/10/19 at 09:49 AM Reply With Quote
On stock pistons I wouldn't rev it too high either, I run forged pistons.

Main reason to run ITB's on mine is so I could make the plenum to whatever size I wanted, my stock ford one becomes less efficient above 6500rpm and can't flow enough air for much more than 700bhp... the gains Im expecting will be from that rather than the ITB's themselves.
As I said earlier, whilst good looking the Rocketeer plenum doesn't look the right volumes for NA to me, if its slightly wrong it will loose power all over the place... its this reason I went ITB, as the plenum size is less sensitive, its just about getting runner lengths correct on ITB's and they are relatively easy to get right.

On the dyno on a stock ST220 engine my ITB's gained power everywhere except between 4500-6500rpm... and I cap torque to save the box in that rev range..... now don't get me wrong the ITB's never bettered the stock plenum as the engines peak was in that range, but stock it goes off a total cliff at 6500rpm and my ITB's kept it climbing to 7100rpm were the engine hit its cam limit.
I expected the mid and top end results, but it was a total surprise to find they were better slightly low down, I was expecting it to be rubbish there.

Im also hoping to unleash some music from the engine, the turbo makes it loose the V6 song and just becomes angry sounding rather than tuneful if that makes sense.





Andy

please redefine your limits.

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Oddified

posted on 11/10/19 at 09:54 AM Reply With Quote
My goals are only 450/500bhp (at least for now lol). Plan is just fit k1 rods, forged pistons, drill for the oil squirters (but also fit jets, not just drilled holes...), mild porting/cleaning up in the heads and it should make what i'm after with less than 1 bar boost. Interesting that your running up to 8000rpm on the st220 heads/finger follows, standard valve springs or uprated?.

Ian

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andygtt

posted on 11/10/19 at 10:13 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Oddified
My goals are only 450/500bhp (at least for now lol). Plan is just fit k1 rods, forged pistons, drill for the oil squirters (but also fit jets, not just drilled holes...), mild porting/cleaning up in the heads and it should make what i'm after with less than 1 bar boost. Interesting that your running up to 8000rpm on the st220 heads/finger follows, standard valve springs or uprated?.

Ian


Stock noble engines with cast pistons and short rods make reliable 450-500bhp, add forged pistons and you can go to 550bhp.

What you plan should see your target at 0.6-7 bar... the ford heads respond fantastically to mild flowing (much better than the jag versions).... with my massive old truck turbo mine made 480bhp at 0.6bar and a very usable power band, I could give it full beans in wet with this actuator pressure it was so smooth.

DONT run stock valve springs, fit the piper upgraded ones, boost makes the valves bounce with stock springs even at low revs and in worst case can cause the valves to fail (ie head drop off), its rare, but it has happened.... its for this reason noble retarded the exhaust cam one tooth to reduce the engines top end rpm range.

The noble block just has welding tips drilled and tapped into the block, I've had the valve versions but am moving away from them as its another thing to fail without you being aware... I can monitor and manage idle oil pressure.

The oil pump is the mechanical limitation for revs as past 8000rpm it cavities and can also break, the followers are claimed to fail, but I've not know of them failing even though I've rev'd to that for 8 years and know of others who have taken them to 8600rpm (big issues for the ST220 engine at those revs tho).

edited to add a video of my lardy ST220 powered car on Silverstone... gives you an idea what this engine is capable of with a turbo.


ST220 engine with a turbo


[Edited on 11/10/19 by andygtt]





Andy

please redefine your limits.

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Oddified

posted on 11/10/19 at 10:22 AM Reply With Quote
That's great info thank you very much, i'll add valve springs to my list of parts i'm gathering at the moment

Ian

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big_wasa

posted on 11/10/19 at 12:16 PM Reply With Quote
Wow that moves.
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CosKev3

posted on 11/10/19 at 04:16 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by andygtt
quote:
Originally posted by Oddified
My goals are only 450/500bhp (at least for now lol). Plan is just fit k1 rods, forged pistons, drill for the oil squirters (but also fit jets, not just drilled holes...), mild porting/cleaning up in the heads and it should make what i'm after with less than 1 bar boost. Interesting that your running up to 8000rpm on the st220 heads/finger follows, standard valve springs or uprated?.

Ian


Stock noble engines with cast pistons and short rods make reliable 450-500bhp, add forged pistons and you can go to 550bhp.

What you plan should see your target at 0.6-7 bar... the ford heads respond fantastically to mild flowing (much better than the jag versions).... with my massive old truck turbo mine made 480bhp at 0.6bar and a very usable power band, I could give it full beans in wet with this actuator pressure it was so smooth.

DONT run stock valve springs, fit the piper upgraded ones, boost makes the valves bounce with stock springs even at low revs and in worst case can cause the valves to fail (ie head drop off), its rare, but it has happened.... its for this reason noble retarded the exhaust cam one tooth to reduce the engines top end rpm range.

The noble block just has welding tips drilled and tapped into the block, I've had the valve versions but am moving away from them as its another thing to fail without you being aware... I can monitor and manage idle oil pressure.

The oil pump is the mechanical limitation for revs as past 8000rpm it cavities and can also break, the followers are claimed to fail, but I've not know of them failing even though I've rev'd to that for 8 years and know of others who have taken them to 8600rpm (big issues for the ST220 engine at those revs tho).

edited to add a video of my lardy ST220 powered car on Silverstone... gives you an idea what this engine is capable of with a turbo.


ST220 engine with a turbo


[Edited on 11/10/19 by andygtt]


That sounds lovely fairdos

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CosKev3

posted on 28/1/20 at 09:39 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 40inches
quote:
Originally posted by CosKev3
Did you experiment with the VVT?

Did the mapper say it's worth while/noticeable when the VVT is used?

[Edited on 28/2/19 by CosKev3]


The VVT was set to cut in at 5200rpm as on the S-Type, and yes you can see the blip on the graph, worth about
15bhp and 10 torques
I am going back, in about an hour, to have a play with the VVT. A power run with and without it fully activated, the logic being that there should be a cross over point that will become the switch point
The ST200 plenum and ST220 throttle body work well, still accelerating past the 7200RPM red line.
If you are running MS2 Extra I can email you the Msq file, when it is finalised?


Hi
Just been shown a diagram from Jag that shows the VVT being 'advanced' from 1000rpm to 5200rpm,and 'retarded' from 5200rpm to the red line.
Bit strange!

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CosKev3

posted on 28/1/20 at 09:41 AM Reply With Quote
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JjiGmJXOjAea5lGTwCKgG8o_xC9wuCXM/view

Page 24 in that

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Oddified

posted on 28/1/20 at 10:11 AM Reply With Quote
Very interesting/useful document for info, i've saved a copy just in case in the future i want to play with a mix and match engine combination of st220/jag hybrid
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CosKev3

posted on 28/1/20 at 10:53 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Oddified
Very interesting/useful document for info, i've saved a copy just in case in the future i want to play with a mix and match engine combination of st220/jag hybrid


Hows the running in going?

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Oddified

posted on 28/1/20 at 02:07 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CosKev3
quote:
Originally posted by Oddified
Very interesting/useful document for info, i've saved a copy just in case in the future i want to play with a mix and match engine combination of st220/jag hybrid


Hows the running in going?


All good got a few hundred miles on the engine now. As suspected it is a bit quicker with the head porting even though the compression has been dropped a bit. Just gathering the last few parts and machining/making/welding up the parts for the turbo install...next week is the plan

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CosKev3

posted on 28/1/20 at 05:34 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Oddified
quote:
Originally posted by CosKev3
quote:
Originally posted by Oddified
Very interesting/useful document for info, i've saved a copy just in case in the future i want to play with a mix and match engine combination of st220/jag hybrid


Hows the running in going?


All good got a few hundred miles on the engine now. As suspected it is a bit quicker with the head porting even though the compression has been dropped a bit. Just gathering the last few parts and machining/making/welding up the parts for the turbo install...next week is the plan


Nice one.

Pics via email please of the turbo parts

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Oddified

posted on 25/4/20 at 04:06 PM Reply With Quote
With the lock down, i've been using the car for essential journeys/shopping, and perhaps a little bit of mapping/fine tuning along the way. Started with 0.6bar boost, then shortly after increasing that i needed larger injectors again and a stronger clutch and upped the wastegate spring, boost solenoid/closed loop, ecu knock detection/control, water/meth injection over 1 bar and data logging everything. The engines really do like a bit of boost! , 3 switchable maps set up now with 0.85bar, 1 bar and 1.25 bar...for now!. It does go very well indeed

Ian

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big_wasa

posted on 25/4/20 at 05:52 PM Reply With Quote
Very very cool
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Nevtiger

posted on 2/5/20 at 07:48 AM Reply With Quote
Hi guys a bit of advice if I may.

Iím using the AJ30 with an RX8 gearbox in a Chrysler Sunbeam With some of the Rocketeer parts.

What exhaust manifolds are being used? I can find Moneo tubular ones but I canít seem to find any RWD application ones that I can then modify?

Nev

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CosKev3

posted on 2/5/20 at 08:25 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Nevtiger
Hi guys a bit of advice if I may.

Iím using the AJ30 with an RX8 gearbox in a Chrysler Sunbeam With some of the Rocketeer parts.

What exhaust manifolds are being used? I can find Moneo tubular ones but I canít seem to find any RWD application ones that I can then modify?

Nev


I used a aftermarket mondeo one modified on the passenger side.

On the drivers side I've used a aftermarket Mitsubishi FTO one with a AJ30 flange welded onto it.

DanST engineering sell AJ30 manifold flanges.

I've run the drivers side under the sump,using a Jag xtype sump,then merged them together into one exhaust system on the pass side as I didn't want twin exhausts on the outside of my car.

If you want some pics email me teare820@btinternet.com

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big_wasa

posted on 2/5/20 at 09:01 PM Reply With Quote
Mine


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Nevtiger

posted on 3/5/20 at 07:25 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by big_wasa
Mine




Did you have those made or are they from something else? They look nice.

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big_wasa

posted on 3/5/20 at 07:36 AM Reply With Quote
They are from a Ginetta G50 with the 3.5/3.7 cyclone engine.

Iíve chopped the flange of and bought some thick stainless steel Aj/Duratec30 flanges. Iíve only got as far as tacking one side on due to multi projects.

They will suit a Gt style car but probably not my 7.

If you have been lucky enough to be able to buy Rocketeer parts would they not sell you a pair of thereís ?

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