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Author: Subject: Which 1ltr bike engine
punkindrublic

posted on 29/11/19 at 10:37 AM Reply With Quote
Which 1ltr bike engine

I've got an R1 (5pw) powered fury. I broke the engine - there was a little puddle, the puddle turned out to be a pond, I didn't slow down enough, ingested quite a bit of water...)

As with all good disasters, I'm looking for a happy ending and thinking of more power. The new 1ltre ngines seem to make more than 200bhp, so...

Do any of them drop in without make modifications? Is there a preferred engine of choice? I want to keep the install as simple as possible - No dry sump, etc.

I had a long chart with Andy Bates who was very helpful and he will either supply or install for me an cbr1000rr. It sounds like a well proven reliable solution. However, it's not cheap!

What are my alternatives?

Cheers

Mike

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kingster996

posted on 29/11/19 at 12:17 PM Reply With Quote
Whatever you get, just make sure it doesnít make the car even more likely to throw a driveshaft at the bloke in the car behind whoís trying to keep up with you! :-D

Wish Iíd had the GoPro on...






I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not so sure

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motorcycle_mayhem

posted on 29/11/19 at 01:22 PM Reply With Quote
Simply add engine mounts to your chassis (or adapt the ones you've got) and fit this?

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HowardB

posted on 29/11/19 at 05:09 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by motorcycle_mayhem
Simply add engine mounts to your chassis (or adapt the ones you've got) and fit this?

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mmmmm porn before the watershed!





Howard

Fisher Fury was 2000 Zetec - now a 1600 (it Lives again and goes zoom)

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kingster996

posted on 30/11/19 at 10:27 AM Reply With Quote
Whatís the power output of the gixxer?

I know mike is looking at either fixing his R1 or upgrading to something newer with more power - ideally around 200 to make it worth the expense and hassle.






I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not so sure

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punkindrublic

posted on 30/11/19 at 10:42 AM Reply With Quote
What age/ spec is it?
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motorcycle_mayhem

posted on 30/11/19 at 09:01 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kingster996
Whatís the power output of the gixxer?

I know mike is looking at either fixing his R1 or upgrading to something newer with more power - ideally around 200 to make it worth the expense and hassle.


This engine package will sadly not meet the criteria, it's only 188.0 BHP at 11,323 rpm, 96.4 lb/ft at 8776 rpm.

Mike really needs to look at the latest Kawasaki ZX10 (or at least beyond the 2011 revision), or a late model BMW 1000rr. The former is somewhat more affordable, both have electrical issues that really warrant aftermarket ECUs. GSXR1000, late models, or a K8 (preferably bored to 1070/1080, a favourite of the hillclimb brigade) could also be a solution. Standard K8 ECU can be romraided for tuning/device/sensor elimination which saves a some money, if that's important.

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TimC

posted on 1/12/19 at 09:26 AM Reply With Quote
Have you heard the Big Bang / flat plane crank R1s? I think Raptor Sportscars have some experience there. Iíd be very tempted in your shoes.






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AdamR20

posted on 1/12/19 at 10:20 AM Reply With Quote
How handy are you with the tools Mike?

AB does good installs but as you have found he is not cheap by any means!

If you already have most of the BEC-related kit I reckon you could get a modern CBR1000 in for £3-4k if you get stuck in yourself. I dropped a little bit lucky on mine and got a cracking engine for not a lot of money, but ended up with north of 200bhp for about 5 grand all in, having started with bare CEC chassis. I did do pretty much everything myself though, only a final tweak of the map was outsourced. If you have a little time to wait for bits to come up you can get some great deals - I have a spare very low mileage 2012 engine which cost me less than a grand, for example.

I had a 5PW Fury for a while - the CBR1000 is a totally different beast, so if it helps broaden your engine search I would say you absolutely don't 'need' 200bhp... Keep things light and simple, it makes a huge difference. I think I remember AB saying they did a ZX14 to CBR1000 swap and saved nearly 100kg!!

Sorry for lack of cohesion but keep thinking of extra info... any power figures quoted in the bike can largely be converted to wheel power figures in a car, providing the install is good. For example a standard CBR1000 is about 175bhp in the bike, you'll see that at the wheels in a car due to the less restrictive manifold (we don't have the physical size and shape of the bike constraining things) and the fact that we have to remap the ECU (or it a Power Commander, etc) for the car application.

There is a LOT of info around for the CBR1000 and many people have done DIY conversions, it's probably the simplest install to make work reliably (important factor!!). For me having a bit less bhp than the latest Kwacker or BMW is absolutely offset by the ease of getting the thing to work reliably in the first place.

This is a long thread but covers my install in detail: https://forum.wscc.co.uk/forum/topic/130867-the-lobster-88-se-rebuild/?tab=comments#comment-1382826

[Edited on 1/12/19 by AdamR20]

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Mike Wood

posted on 1/12/19 at 12:00 PM Reply With Quote
Rather than lots of power, what would be the low budget bike engine of choice these days?
Also is there anything that can be run on carbs and without an ECU?

Cheers
Mike

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kingster996

posted on 1/12/19 at 11:20 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
This is a long thread but covers my install in detail: https://forum.wscc.co.uk/forum/topic/130867-the-lobster-88-se-rebuild/?tab=comments#comment-1382826

[Edited on 1/12/19 by AdamR20]


I did point Mike to your build thread Adam - might even have contributed to why heís looking for 200bhp :-)






I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not so sure

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AdamR20

posted on 3/12/19 at 09:48 PM Reply With Quote
Ha! Fair play Chris

I don't think you need as much power in a Fury mind you, even with a 919 'Blade (probably 120-130bhp) mine kept pulling at 100mph... with that little power a Se7en type car hits a metaphorical brick wall.

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The Knobs

posted on 4/12/19 at 11:44 AM Reply With Quote
Just replace like for like and have a few grand to play with. Rotrex maybe?
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punkindrublic

posted on 4/12/19 at 12:59 PM Reply With Quote
Cheers all.
I read your build thread Adam. I can swing a hammer and hit my thumb, but my skill level isn't upto lots of fabrication.

I built my own fuel injection system for a westy years ago, so happy to play around but struggle for time.

The sensible thing to do is simply drop another r1 in.

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scootz

posted on 4/12/19 at 02:00 PM Reply With Quote
I've always been interested in how the more recent CBR1000RR's would go without the air-box shower-injectors.

Obviously not very well if removed in isolation and run with the rest of the standard Honda kit. Instead deleted (along with the bike air-box) and then some experimenting undertaken during a dyno session using a standalone ECU, different sized main-injectors, differing lengths of velocity stacks, and fiddling with the fuel pressures?

Anyone gone down this road?

PS - love some of your out-of-the-box thinking Adam!





It's Evolution Baby!

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Andy B

posted on 5/12/19 at 10:39 PM Reply With Quote
Problem with the CBR is itís ignition system
The lack of a missing tooth set up makes it a complete bitch to run aftermarket ECUs with
This is further compounded by the fact that itís pick up draws crank speed from 12 evenly spaced teeth on the flywheel
Knocking off one tooth as a trigger doesnít provide a clean enough signal for most systems
I have done it by water jet cutting a 32-1 ring but then the flywheel has to be turned down to allow fitment clearance
It then has to be welded to the flywheel in an oil bath to stop the heat dissolving the glue bonding the magnets in the flywheel
When you turn down the flywheel it weakens it massively as the material is very thin to start with
Of the three we did one flywheel parred comany with the base material and two split the ring gear at high rpm
In short it really needs an external boss bringing through the clutch cover side to drive a trigger
A lot of work to do it though 😀

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AdamR20

posted on 6/12/19 at 05:30 AM Reply With Quote
Why is that a 'problem'? Why on earth would you want to make life hard (and expensive) for yourself and run an aftermarket ECU, when the OE one and a Woolich system (or ECU flash) will do everything you need?

Granted I guess there can be a tiny advantage if you are chasing every last bhp or optimising the cold start / enrichment maps (and charging customers for the privilege), but for the hobbyist building cars in sheds / garages I don't really see it as a problem.

I do hope this isn't the start of 'Honda-bashing' because you've found a new toy to play with Andy

[Edited on 6/12/19 by AdamR20]

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Andy B

posted on 6/12/19 at 07:54 AM Reply With Quote
Not at all Adam
The CBR remains the mainstay of our fleet of cars and we will be using it for several years yet
The point of my post was to explain the difficulties of using aftermarket ECUís with that particular engine
We are working on the new GSXR in much the same way we developed the iriginal package for the blade back in 2008 as it represents a step forward in power and torque for our race focussed cars
It will however, not be a cheap package compared to the Honda with quite a sophisticated electronics package, ecu and a lot more to get it working
We will in time be looking at the new blade too however we have to know that a model run is going to be long enough to justify the huge development costs in getting them car fit

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scootz

posted on 6/12/19 at 10:27 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Andy B
Problem with the CBR is itís ignition system
The lack of a missing tooth set up makes it a complete bitch to run aftermarket ECUs with
This is further compounded by the fact that itís pick up draws crank speed from 12 evenly spaced teeth on the flywheel
Knocking off one tooth as a trigger doesnít provide a clean enough signal for most systems
I have done it by water jet cutting a 32-1 ring but then the flywheel has to be turned down to allow fitment clearance
It then has to be welded to the flywheel in an oil bath to stop the heat dissolving the glue bonding the magnets in the flywheel
When you turn down the flywheel it weakens it massively as the material is very thin to start with
Of the three we did one flywheel parred comany with the base material and two split the ring gear at high rpm
In short it really needs an external boss bringing through the clutch cover side to drive a trigger
A lot of work to do it though



Cheers Andy.

Are the HRC ECU's flexible enough to 'forget' about the shower injectors?





It's Evolution Baby!

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scootz

posted on 6/12/19 at 10:38 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AdamR20
Why is that a 'problem'? Why on earth would you want to make life hard (and expensive) for yourself and run an aftermarket ECU, when the OE one and a Woolich system (or ECU flash) will do everything you need?

Granted I guess there can be a tiny advantage if you are chasing every last bhp or optimising the cold start / enrichment maps (and charging customers for the privilege), but for the hobbyist building cars in sheds / garages I don't really see it as a problem.

I do hope this isn't the start of 'Honda-bashing' because you've found a new toy to play with Andy





The 'problem' is that whacking great airbox sticking out of a 7-style bonnet. Fine on a race-car, but otherwise ugly!

I'm aware that Andy has been working on a Caterham friendly induction system which keeps all the Blade gizmo's below the bonnet-line, but I'd imagine that the level of workmanship required ain't going to come cheap. I was therefore simply wondering that if someone already had a good standalone ECU sitting redundant, then would / could deleting the shower-injectors be a more cost effective way of keeping it all under the bonnet?





It's Evolution Baby!

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scootz

posted on 6/12/19 at 10:49 AM Reply With Quote
Crikey - just looked at the most recent Gixxer 1000 figures.

199 bhp and 87 ft-lbs are pretty impressive - those numbers should creep-up reasonably well with the less restricted packaging space that a car offers.

Secondary injectors again though, so I'm guessing that it'll be a similarly 'tall' install.





It's Evolution Baby!

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scootz

posted on 6/12/19 at 05:45 PM Reply With Quote
... and what about the 2016 Kwacker ZX10R - BONKERS! 207bhp!





It's Evolution Baby!

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