Andybarbet
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| posted on 15/2/06 at 02:28 PM |
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Help ! What engine ????
Hi,
I need some help as to which engine choice to go for,my kit is a Luego VelocityXT,sierra donor is stripped & originally i was going to use the
2.0litre pinto ive got & fit the standard fuel injection system with a cut down plenum,i also have a type 9 gfearbox.
Question is,before i go too far,what bhp is my engine likely to give me in standard
form ?
what sort of 0 - 60 times will i get with it ?
And if i were to go for a 1.8/2.0 Zetec or Redtop Vauxhall,roughly how much more will it cost & what are the advantages for the extra outlay ?
Also, would i be able to fit the fuel injection bits from these 2 engines or would it mean getting twin carbs etc ?
im not after a track car but would like it to be pretty fast 
Lots of questions i know but any feedback will be appreciated thanks
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richijenkin
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| posted on 15/2/06 at 02:34 PM |
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Bike engine is the way to go!! Alot lighter and alot easeir to work with/on. get a spin in one before you decide!
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donut
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| posted on 15/2/06 at 02:37 PM |
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Is it Hellfires day off???
Andy
When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/andywest1/
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DarrenW
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| posted on 15/2/06 at 02:41 PM |
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Ive done a 0-60 dash in 6.4secs with my pinto ZR and its not set up properly yet - also couldnt get traction due to cold icy weather. I should get
below 6secs when its set up better and i learn how to launch. There are tuned 2.1's out there that can do it in a little over 5secs.
Bike engines are a whole different league - allegedly!!! (queue Hellfire....)
I know a guy with a megabusa. Loves it on the track but says its a nightmare on the roads. Thats the extreme of bike engines. If i was building again
id probs go for zetec - more power than i have currently, more modern engine, nice to drive on the roads but still fun for occasional trackday.
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Andybarbet
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| posted on 15/2/06 at 02:53 PM |
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Im afraid bike engines arent really my thing,but that pinto 0-60 sounds good,if that is the case and im gonna be looking at 6.5 second 0-60's -
it wont cost me much,just a precautionary strip down and rebuild.
Any more takers ????
Im hoping the car will be used most of the time as my daily driver,so dont want anything too tuned as reliability is quite important too.
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alister667
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| posted on 15/2/06 at 02:59 PM |
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Saying Hellfire is missing I thought I'd weigh in with the BEC thing!
A blade is going to cost somthing like 700-1000 quid, if you're going to rebuild a pinto, new cam maybe, few bits and pieces, you're going
to be very quickly up to half the cost of a blade - and your'e still going to have an engine with maybe 80,000 miles on it. Most superbike
engines seem to have way lower milage on them - mostly they're only for occasional use, and they require very little tuning. Just drop
'em in a go!
A blade locost will get you to 60 in around 4 seconds, but much more impressive is the extra cornering speed and braking improvement caused by the
weight saving.
I've done about 6000 miles on the road, and if you get your gearing right, they are a pleasure to drive on the road. The sequential gearbox
alone making a BEC worthwhile IMHO.
The only down side I can think of is the hassle of the emmissions test at SVA, but it can be done, other wise a BEC is the cheap easy option to a
pretty quick car.
That's not to decry anybody's CEC, CEC's do have a reverse, and are less hairy on the road, a car with 280-300bhp/ton isn't
everyone's cup of tea, but if you're interested in 0-60 times that might not be a problem.
Ultimately I'd urge you to get in touch with someone who lives near you to take you for a run in a BEC, it'll paint a far better picture
than anything I can waffle on about.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/alister667/
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DarrenW
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| posted on 15/2/06 at 03:01 PM |
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Just to give you more info on mine. Bottom end is stock, straight out of donor with no rebuild. If it lets go ill whip it out and rebuild to 2.1. Carb
is 38DGAS. Head is mildly diy ported with FR32 cam - i followed Des Hammil book instruction for porting - very easy just took some time. Exhaust is
Mac#1 stainless 4-2-1 system - sounds great. Ignition is new std sierra electronic.
15" wheels with Toyo proxes - nowt flash.
In terns of costs:
Exhaust £475 (now £500).
Cam £35 ebay special.
Head porting and refurb approx £90.
Engine - £180 (i paid good money cos i was impatient, can be had for a lot less, i got a load of new bits with it as well).
Dizzy - new - £65.
Ign Amp - new - £28.
Rebuild to 2.1 will be approx £250 if i assemble. few quid extra for gaskets.
Change of carbs approx £350.
So far ignoring exhaust cos a bec will need one anyway - ive spent £400, blade will be closer to £1000. BEC will be faster and have sequential bo
tho'. Horses for courses really - depends what you are after. If mine breaks i could get another engine for 50 - 75 and put my head on it.
Cant wait for better weather to try it again. Carb is running rich as well, should be better when tuned properly (timing roughly set to 12deg at the
mo). In future id like to upgrade to bike carb or twin 40's. I was talking to Mac#1 - they were getting low 5's in there old demo car with
2.1 on twin 40's and 285 cam with big valve head.
If you want further advice on getting more power Mookaloid is the man. There is still life in the ole pintos yet.
[Edited on 15/2/06 by DarrenW]
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mookaloid
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| posted on 15/2/06 at 03:07 PM |
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I believe my Pinto Indy is giving me a 0-60 of about 4.5 sec if that gives you any encouragement.
BTW I would bin the original Fuel injection system and go for bike carbs or throttle bodies and megasquirt.
Bogg Bros seem to think that bike carbs will add about 30 BHP on their own to a standard pinto. if you do a little head work and fit a decent exhaust
then so much the better.
I'd be happy to answer questions about the Pinto if you go that route.
Cheers
Mark
[Edited on 15/2/06 by mookaloid]
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mookaloid
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| posted on 15/2/06 at 03:13 PM |
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[quote
If you want further advice on getting more power Mookaloid is the man. There is still life in the ole pintos yet.
Thank you kind sir
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DarrenW
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| posted on 15/2/06 at 03:13 PM |
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You are most welcome Mark.
Have a read of this. Rare posting by Dave Walker on page 2.
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=23342
Does anyone know what fuel system is recommended if you go the 2.2 conversion route? ie is bike carbs or twin 45's up to the job?
[Edited on 15/2/06 by DarrenW]
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Andybarbet
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| posted on 15/2/06 at 03:34 PM |
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Ok guys,
Basically if im looking at 6 seconds 0-60 i will be happy,i meant to say the exhaust cost doesnt really come into it because i will need one whatever
i use,if i stick with pinto i will get exhaust from Luego.
2.1 sounds interesting as do the bike carbs,how much would the bike carbs be with a manifold ?
Forgot to mention its a 205 block.
As i already have the pinto,im edging towards using it at the mo,if i were to go Dgas twin choke will i gain anything over my standard fuel injection
?
[Edited on 15/2/06 by Andybarbet]
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zxrlocost
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| posted on 15/2/06 at 03:38 PM |
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mate go ahead and do your car engine then when youve finished it and are drivng around etc youll go to a meet and someone with a BEC will be there
and youll regret the day you ever fitted the car engine
There is no sound like a Bike Engine at 11,000rpm.
chris
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DarrenW
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| posted on 15/2/06 at 03:48 PM |
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Bogg bros will do you a complete bike carb conversion for around £630.
Andy Donut has just been getting his bike carbs fitted to a manifold, jetted and cleaned for £200 ish. On top of that he will need cables, pump,
filters etc.
original injection is restrictive. Mark Allanson got his working and reports very positively. I have been led to believe that 38DGAS might gain yopu
10 - 15bhp but you will never know as you wont be able to before and after comparisons. With a DGAS you can simply junk the injection and easiily
replace (mine is injection head - flows better than carb head as std). After that twin 40's and twin 45's are next up the ladder. Some
people say you have to have twin 45's after 150bhp, i know of a 2.1 that had in excess of 150 with twin 40's correctly jetted (i think
chokes were bored out to 37mm).
With Pintos there is a plethora of reading material. Id suggest reading des Hammil and David Vizard bibles to give you some background.
Dont discount other engines, but if you have the Pinto already there is no need to spend mountains of more cash. bike engines will give you huge grin
factor. To get the Pinto to bike engine power it will cost you similar amounts in the end but if you want to go the nromal road car route then there
is nothing wrong with the Pinto. It is very simple to work with and hugely foregiving if you make mistakes when setting it up (mine was still running
even when hugely advanced way too far!!).
if you want to change in the future that can be another nice winter project.
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smart51
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| posted on 15/2/06 at 04:26 PM |
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2.0 carbed pinto made a quoted 95 BHP when new. The 2.0i pinto gave 105 BHP, mainly due to improvements in the head. I have heard it said that the
best pinto is an injection engine converted to carbs because it has a better flowing head. that said, if you are going to have the head flowed, it
might not matter which one you start out with.
2.0i zetecs had 135 BHP and are likely to be a lot newer than the pinto that you have. these too can be either carbed or megajolted to give more
power. The zetec is lighter than the pinto meaning that your car will have quicker acceleration even for the same power.
Bike engines are much quicker still and can be had for the same cost as a tuned and fitted car engine. a carbed R1 makes about 150 BHP and can be
picked up quite cheap. Mine cost £600 ish from eBay and included the wiring loom, carbs, radiator and fan. You should be getting 3.5 - 4 seconds 0 -
62 times with this engine. I fitted a foam filter and £100 worth of dynojet kit to mine, rather than adapting the airbox to fit under the bonnet and
upto 160 BHP is claimed from this setup.
Bike engines are by far quicker but are louder and don't have a reverse gear. If you want a sprinter then a bike engine is the one to have. If
you want a cruiser for steady 60MPH A roads, then a car engine will be [a bit] more civilised. Overall, both engine types are fast but loud. It is
more a matter of emphasis.
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bimbleuk
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| posted on 15/2/06 at 05:25 PM |
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Just to add a bit of variety you could consider a Toyota 4AGE engine. Relatively light and compact engines with a very good reliability record.
I went for the "blacktop" 20V 4AGE because I wanted a standard engine with reasonable power (150 BHP). They come with individual throttle
bodies and 30% lighter internals compared to a phase 3 4AGE 16V. Mated to a light flywheel the response is fantastic with 8000+ RPM considered the
norm!
There is a premium for going this route but all the bits are readily available. The bare engine from Fensport is £750 or more like £1200 with all the
ancilleries. Then you need the type nine bell housing and conversion kit from RAW. For best results an OMEX 600 series ECU and wiring loom will cost
£550 approx. Mapping is no problem as my map data for example would just copy staight over.
Just another possibilty!
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britishtrident
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| posted on 15/2/06 at 08:00 PM |
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The Zetec, Toyota and K series engines are light years ahead of the Pinto. Even if you get power out a Pinto it is never going to be free revving the
way a 4 valve unit is.
1.8 Zetec are dirt cheap the bigest fitting cost is the Megasquirt.
Like wise a 1.4 K16 engine makes 104 bhp as it comes out a Rover 214Sei and is a lot lighter than a Pinto.
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wilkingj
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| posted on 15/2/06 at 08:47 PM |
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You could just put in the pinto "as is" as long as it passes the Emissions for the SVA... dont worry.
You could go with an older engine, and get through the SVA then next winter convert to what you want, or even rebuild the Pinto.
ie for now spend the minimum on the engine you have.
Are you going for a Q plate or an age related, or a New 06 plate?.
I ask as the Emission regs at later mots will be different.
I am going Q plate, as its Visual ONLY for emission at Mot's. OK still have to pass SVA.
Later engines need a Cat and have stricter emissions.
Think of now, and the SVA.
Then think of Next Winters project to change to what engine you want.
Type 9 Gearbox will Take a Pinto, DOHC, and Zetec (someone correct me if I am wrong).
OK, its more work, but its will get you on the road. There is nothing to stop you changing to a Zetec, or a hayabusa later when its on the road.
Just take into account the exhaust etc now, so you dont cut too many holes etc in the bodywork, snookering yourself for later changes.
After all, you are building the whole car... An engine change next winter will be a doddle, and give you all summer to collect the bits, and spread
the cost.
1. The point of a journey is not to arrive.
2. Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.
Best Regards
Geoff
http://www.v8viento.co.uk
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billy
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| posted on 15/2/06 at 09:17 PM |
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you cant beat the powa of the old xe ask ned
luego-lo-cost finished,vauxhall 16v 2.0,twin 45s de-dion rear set up
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cossey
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| posted on 15/2/06 at 09:25 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by wilkingj
You could just put in the pinto "as is" as long as it passes the Emissions for the SVA... dont worry.
You could go with an older engine, and get through the SVA then next winter convert to what you want, or even rebuild the Pinto.
ie for now spend the minimum on the engine you have.
Are you going for a Q plate or an age related, or a New 06 plate?.
I ask as the Emission regs at later mots will be different.
I am going Q plate, as its Visual ONLY for emission at Mot's. OK still have to pass SVA.
Later engines need a Cat and have stricter emissions.
Think of now, and the SVA.
Then think of Next Winters project to change to what engine you want.
Type 9 Gearbox will Take a Pinto, DOHC, and Zetec (someone correct me if I am wrong).
OK, its more work, but its will get you on the road. There is nothing to stop you changing to a Zetec, or a hayabusa later when its on the road.
Just take into account the exhaust etc now, so you dont cut too many holes etc in the bodywork, snookering yourself for later changes.
After all, you are building the whole car... An engine change next winter will be a doddle, and give you all summer to collect the bits, and spread
the cost.
i thought with the new computer mots the q plate thing wont hold up for emissions tests anymore.
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iank
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| posted on 15/2/06 at 10:08 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by cossey
i thought with the new computer mots the q plate thing wont hold up for emissions tests anymore.
I'm interested, where did you see that? I just did a search on vosa's website and couldn't find any reference to a change of
regulations in that area. Did find one explicit reference that Q reg cars just get a visual check, but that was rather old.
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 15/2/06 at 11:01 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by zxrlocost
mate go ahead and do your car engine then when youve finished it and are drivng around etc youll go to a meet and someone with a BEC will be there
and youll regret the day you ever fitted the car engine
There is no sound like a Bike Engine at 11,000rpm.
chris
Yep, no sound like it if you have to drive on the road for a few hours as well  Give me a car engine, with man sized amounts of torque any day.
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zxrlocost
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| posted on 15/2/06 at 11:37 PM |
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boring
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stevebubs
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 12:52 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DarrenW
Bogg bros will do you a complete bike carb conversion for around £630.
Not exactly locost....my whole FI system cost me less than that....
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Sean
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 08:17 AM |
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How about a good old V8? All that torque and pretty good power, and as for the sound. Well, can you really beat the sound of a V8 on twin pipes?
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 16/2/06 at 08:42 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Sean
How about a good old V8? All that torque and pretty good power, and as for the sound. Well, can you really beat the sound of a V8 on twin pipes?
It has one of the best soundtracks, but I think V8's go too far the other way from bike engines, low revving, lazy power (unless you get one of
those fantastic V8's made from 2 bike engines!).
I still reckon the ultimate power uint for road use is the K20 from the S2000.
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