Pseicho
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| posted on 31/5/06 at 09:25 AM |
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What engine for middy?
Hi guys!
I want to build a small mid-engined car, but I can't decide which engine to use.
It can be either 4, 5 or 6 cilinders, has to be powerful and light, but above all, it has to be relatively cheap!
Some options I've considered but haven't rejected yet:
- Honda 1.6 VTI 160 hp
- Honda 2.2 VTI 185 hp
- Toyoya 2.0 Turbo (3SGTE) 200+ hp but may be hard to find
- Audi 1.8 20v Turbo 150+ hp but may be too expensive
- Volvo T5 225+ hp but may be too heavy
I'm assuming buying a damaged car and using as many parts of it as possible would be the cheapest option.
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12a RX-7
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| posted on 31/5/06 at 09:32 AM |
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mazda 2.5 v6 as used in nobles and the like, can find them in 626GT's MX6's also the same engine in the probe and Mondeo ST's they
also come in 1.8l V6 and 2l V6 flavours in the mx3 , 323f and Xsedos range.
Nice light all alloy V6's that have been used all over the place
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nitram38
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| posted on 31/5/06 at 09:52 AM |
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I bought a 21K miles rover 214 that had been t-boned for £400.
It provided a fuel injected 16 valve 1.4 ltr k-series engine, Exhaust header and cat, gearbox, driveshafts, Brakes, steering column and handbrake.
I choose the 1.4 because it would keep my roadtax and insurance low, but there is nothing stopping you from using a 1.8 ltr engine.
I would recommend a cambelt change and check the radiator for oil. The k-series does sometimes have head issues, especially if no anti-freeze use.
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NS Dev
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| posted on 31/5/06 at 10:09 AM |
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for transverse mounted power per pound spent the SAAB 9000 2.3 turbo takes some beating.
You can buy a complete car for £500, they are 225hp as std (in the griffin) and with a few ecu tweaks and suitable charge cooling will easily push
350hp.
They will go to much more with further mods, the base engine is incredibly strong.
Volvo T4 is also a good bet though less cheap.
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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Pseicho
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| posted on 31/5/06 at 11:17 AM |
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Thanks for the replies!
The mazda v6's are interesting but they don't have enough power
I'm still going to look into the saab but I think it's old.
I'm now leaning towards the Honda 1.6 VTI engine because it seems to be the lightest and cheapest of my list to me.
If possible I would also like to use the steering column and rack, hubs, uprights, maybe brake compontents and pedals and a lot of minor stuff.
Any thoughts on that?
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DarrenW
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| posted on 31/5/06 at 11:30 AM |
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A lad round the corner from me used the 2.2 Honda Vti in his Mojo 2. I think the gear links were awkward to get right but its quite a potent performer
(he fitted throttle bodies and ECU as well).
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Hellfire
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| posted on 31/5/06 at 11:39 AM |
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Mid engine cars were made to take bike engines weren't they? Just look at the Elise's, they're ripping the engines out and replacing
with Hyabusas - Definitely powerful and light. 
OK, maybe not the cheapest engine but there are other similar engines out there for less money.
Phil
[Edited on 31-5-06 by Hellfire]
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 31/5/06 at 11:40 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by 12a RX-7
mazda 2.5 v6 as used in nobles and the like, can find them in 626GT's MX6's also the same engine in the probe and Mondeo ST's they
also come in 1.8l V6 and 2l V6 flavours in the mx3 , 323f and Xsedos range.
Nice light all alloy V6's that have been used all over the place
The Noble and Mondeo use the Ford Duratec V6, the Mazda engine is an entirely different beast.
The B16 engine is certainly light and powerfull for it's size, but they are not particularly cheap to buy or tune and are somewhat lacking in
torque.
The 3SGTE is not hard to find, there are now thousands of MR2 turbos in the country, which regularly get thrown into various hedges. The GT4 celica
has the same engine but with 4x4 running gear that won't be suitable for your project. It is however a physicaly large and quite heavy engine
and box, though of course you have up to 245ps in stock form with plenty of scope for tuning.
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nitram38
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| posted on 31/5/06 at 12:18 PM |
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For my next project, it will be R1 powered.
I think the engine only weighs 48Kg and is approx 140bhp (unless someone knows the proper figures!)
Not only will it sound like a race car, the paddle shift option looks like a good idea.
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NS Dev
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| posted on 31/5/06 at 12:49 PM |
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I am a bit puzzed at how you can say that the Mazda/Ford V6 is short of power and then say you will use a Honda 1.6!!!
SAAB engine may be a little older but.....well, up to you, can't be bothered to go into it but needless to say it will make a honda 1.6 seem
akin to a go-ped!!
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 31/5/06 at 12:51 PM |
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Is the SAAB lump all alloy or does it have an iron block?
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NS Dev
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| posted on 31/5/06 at 01:15 PM |
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iron block I'm afraid, but not too bad weight-wise. Certainly lighter than the Volvo T5 that was mentioned!!
I have looked into using this engine pretty extensively myself, in the back of a mid engined class 7 autograss car, hence my suggestion.
The weak point is really the GM gearbox, which is pretty marginal, certainly risky at 350hp.
I know that Dave Walker (of Newark Engines, who used to post on here a lot) has had a bit to do with class 7 saab turbo powered mid engined pug 205,
and said it worked extremely well.
I got put off that route when I saw the 604hp wildcat V8 engined rwd mini at the autosport show, made me realise that 350hp with car engine weight
wouldn't cut the mustard, so I am going for 2 bike engines instead.
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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Pseicho
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| posted on 31/5/06 at 02:52 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by NS Dev
I am a bit puzzed at how you can say that the Mazda/Ford V6 is short of power and then say you will use a Honda 1.6!!!
SAAB engine may be a little older but.....well, up to you, can't be bothered to go into it but needless to say it will make a honda 1.6 seem
akin to a go-ped!!
I looked the hp figures and the 2.5 liter ford has only 170 hp (unless you go for the ST220 or a Noble)
The mazda V6's had even less power, I believe 140 hp for the 2.0.
I'm sure the hp/torque graphs of those engines are better, but then again, they're probably a lot heavier too.
Anyone has any idea what a volvo 5-cyl engine weighs? (compared to a 4-cyl engine)
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 31/5/06 at 04:30 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Pseicho
I looked the hp figures and the 2.5 liter ford has only 170 hp (unless you go for the ST220 or a Noble)
2.5 Duractec 170bhp, 162 lb ft
Honda B16A 158-170 hp & 111-116 lb ft depending on exact model.
The Honda engine is more like a bike engine, you really have the screw the nuts of it to make it go. The Duratec will pull hard from very low RPM.
I have a Honda B18C4 in my everyday car, and whilst it is a lot of fun to drive, keeping the engine spinning above 6000 RPM can get tiring!
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DIY Si
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| posted on 31/5/06 at 04:47 PM |
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The duratec engine is much better than those power figures would suggest. Ford fitted THREE cats and once removed, and you add a decent inlet/exhaust
system and you'll see 200+bhp from the standard v6. If you start with the 220 bhp version, you'll get 240-250+ with a few bits and pieces.
And the sound of a lovely v6. Oh, and it's all ally, so weighs not much too.
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Hellfire
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| posted on 31/5/06 at 05:23 PM |
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£ for lb - a bike engine is the only choice.
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Johnmor
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| posted on 31/5/06 at 05:51 PM |
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Alfa V6, 200bhp, all alloy, fuel injection and cheap.
Stratos replicas use them for good reason
Looks and sounds good to.
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atomic
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| posted on 31/5/06 at 06:14 PM |
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Forget the B16/B18 Honda engines unless you plan to also use the gearbox and diff from the donor as they spin in the opposite direction to most other
engines. Honda only started making engines that rotate clockwise from about Y2K with the F20C and K20's. Never had any dealings with the 2.2 out
of the Accord not 100% on that one but I guess that also spins the anti-clockwise as it was available before 2000.
Getting decent power out of the B16/B18 is easy though, TB's, Cam's and a mappable ecu are a very good place to start.
Why not have a look for a Civic Type-R with the K20A engine. 197BHP and plenty more available if you are willing to spend some money. Standalone ecu’s
of note for the Honda engines are Motec M4, dtafast S60Pro, AEM EMS, Emerald, Hydra and Hondata.
A motorsport gearbox which spin’s anticlockwise is available but it will cost about 4/5K plus import duty.
A good place to start for Honda parts/tuning are and advice....
http://www.mardigras.co.uk/
http://www.clockwisemotion.co.uk/
Mardi-Gras are a good set of guys and know what they are talking.
You could also give Johnny a call at bookatrac as he usually has a few K20's knocking about.
If you need any further help with the Honda engines let me know as I've been racing the m for a few years now.
Don't dismiss the Duratec 2.0/2.3 as it is a cracking engine with huge potential. They are easy to tune and you would see greater rewards for
your money then you would with the Honda's.
Have you though about the 1.8T from Audi, there are plenty of crashed TT and the like around.
[Edited on 31/5/06 by atomic]
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Pseicho
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| posted on 1/6/06 at 07:32 AM |
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After some research I think the Ford V6 would be the cheapest option, so it's definately worth considering. But I think it would need some
tuning, does anyone have any links about that?
And what does the V6 weigh?
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atomic
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| posted on 1/6/06 at 09:40 AM |
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Another option would be a 2ltr 16v Toyota 4AGE and fit a 20V head. These are very capable engines and can be found for very little money.
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Pseicho
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| posted on 1/6/06 at 11:31 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by atomic
Another option would be a 2ltr 16v Toyota 4AGE and fit a 20V head. These are very capable engines and can be found for very little money.
The 4AGE is only a 1.6 litre, but it's definately cheap and powerful. Although it doesn't make the power I have in mind (150+ hp).
Does anyone know how all these engines compare in weight?
How much heavier is the Ford V6 than the 4AGE and Honda 1.6 VTI for example?
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atomic
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| posted on 1/6/06 at 02:54 PM |
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just a typo. My fingers working quicker that my brain. Happens alot :-)
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martyn_16v
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| posted on 1/6/06 at 07:17 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by atomic
Forget the B16/B18 Honda engines unless you plan to also use the gearbox and diff from the donor as they spin in the opposite direction to most other
engines.
What stops you trying to run one 'backwards' though? I'm struggling to think of a reason why the crank has to spin in a particular
direction (that doesn't mean there isn't a blindingly simple reason though ), as far as the piston travel is concerned it doesn't
make a difference does it, they'll still go up and down either way? In a four cyl the pistons are 180 crank degrees apart so the direction
shouldn't make a diference to the order. The original engine management might have a bit of a fit but that's not insurmountable, just bin
it and fit something else...
I know i'm missing something important 
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JoelP
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| posted on 1/6/06 at 08:11 PM |
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just the cams would need to be made backwards
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ned
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| posted on 1/6/06 at 08:14 PM |
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no offence but you said you'd rather use a 1.6 hinda engine than a 2.3 saab, you recon a 200bhp v6 would need 'tuning' have you been
in a car similar to what you have in mind or another lightweight sportscar of a similar power/weight ratio of what you are trying to achieve? If not I
think you'd be very suprised - most 7's don't make 200bhp - i'd bet money that a very small percent - probably less than 5% of
road going examples do and none of them in my experience could be called slow.
please don't take offence, i'm just trying to put it into perspective. i spent a fair amount on my engine and to a degree got worried
about figures, but having seen it on the rolling road and my experience in similar powered cars it should be more than enough to start with.
Ned.
beware, I've got yellow skin
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