Beeker
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| posted on 2/7/03 at 01:47 PM |
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Ron Champion's book
Can anybody help?
I've just got a copy of "Build your own Sports car". After reading about the chassis it only gives plans for a "fixed
axle".Since I'm using a Sierra and not a Mk2 Escort,I would like to use the IRS from the Sierra! Does anybody know where to get the plans
for a IRS chassis.Thanks for any help or advice..
[Edited on 2/7/03 by Beeker]
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ned
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| posted on 2/7/03 at 01:50 PM |
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Beeker,
There are plans in existance, can't remember where, but they are on the web somewhere. I'm sure someone will be along soon with the
address....
Welcome to the madness....
Ned.
beware, I've got yellow skin
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James
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 posted on 2/7/03 at 02:01 PM |
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Ron Champion's Book...
... is full of lies ...
Hi Beeker,
Good luck with your build. Can I suggest that before you start you visit Jim McSorley's fantastic site: http://www.mcsorley.net/locost/
from where you can download an accurate (as opposed to The Book's very innaccurate) chassis cutting list and set of plans.
It's live axle (as opposed to IRS) but atleast the front 2/3 will be correct!
Can I also suggest you think very carefully before going down the IRS route- it's a pain to design your own system and the whole thing will take
you much longer.
HTH,
James
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stephen_gusterson
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| posted on 2/7/03 at 02:03 PM |
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seconded
a live axle will be faster to build and simpler with less risk of getting it wrong.
dosent the (tiger avon?) book describe the building of an irs car?
atb
steve
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Beeker
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| posted on 2/7/03 at 02:14 PM |
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Thanks
Thanks for the help. I was just wondering how easy would it be to squeeze a few more inches into the seating area as I'm a bit on the stocky
side??
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Simon
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| posted on 2/7/03 at 02:14 PM |
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Beeker
I've gone IRS route using Sierra diff/driveshafts and homemade wishbones/uprights.
If I was starting again, and from what I now know, I'd go live axle.
If you insist on IRS, get a copy of Jim Dudley Avon book and follow the design for the IRS and graft to RC chassis.
That's my suggestion for the day!!
ATB
Simon
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kingr
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| posted on 2/7/03 at 02:20 PM |
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Yes, it does, and is what I have done, and haven't had any major problems (so far). It does take a little longer, but it's in my view a
far nicer system, potentially more tunable, a good range of diffs that are easy to swap in and out, including LSDs, rear discs (unneccesary, but look
much better behind your alloys.... the list goes on. I've not mentioned performance or comfort, as this always a controvercial point, although I
think most people consider IRS to be more comfortable. Surfice to say that both types are rarely found wanting in performance, or are particularly
comfortable for that matter, but then that's not what it's all about.
Kingr
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kingr
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| posted on 2/7/03 at 02:22 PM |
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dammit, go to reply to steve, and before I've finished writing to other post have gone up!!
Kingr
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PerspexIt
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| posted on 2/7/03 at 02:49 PM |
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3d edition, when?
Hi,
some months ago some people was talking about the imminent 3d edition of the RC's book with the IRS option.
Any news about it?
-P
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Viper
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| posted on 2/7/03 at 02:55 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Simon
Beeker
If you insist on IRS, get a copy of Jim Dudley Avon book and follow the design for the IRS and graft to RC chassis.
That's my suggestion for the day!!
ATB
Simon
I wouldn't do that, with the Tiger design you are loading the top wishbone bushes should you want to dial in toe in, and the bottom wishbones
??why arent they symetrical and made the correct size to fit the chassis rather than have to pack them back or forward to fit the arches??
seems like lack of development to me.
if it helps (which it probably won't) take a look at my pics to see how i have done things.
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bob
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| posted on 2/7/03 at 04:34 PM |
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If you do decide on live axle and want a few extra inches in the width area,get yourself a complete mk3/4/5 cortina or an old capri mk2/3 as a donor.
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theconrodkid
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| posted on 2/7/03 at 04:54 PM |
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or buy an mk or luego,dont work out too much more money and a lot less agg,bin there got the t shirt
who cares who wins
pass the pork pies
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craig1410
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| posted on 2/7/03 at 06:16 PM |
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Hi,
Nobody has mentioned it so I will:
The third option is de-dion which is widely regarded (by me anyway) as a very good half way house between Live and IRS. It is renouned for exceptional
traction and has reduced unsprung weight compared with live axle and so handles the bumps better. It also uses a standard Sierra diff along with a
virtually standard book chassis so I think it is the best option.
I have some detailed plans on how to make the de-dion axle or you can buy a ready made axle from Dax as used on the Dax Rush. Stu16V has used this Dax
kit and swears by it (Stu?)
Check out my website (www button below) for a look at what it looks like but disregard the fact that my trailing arms are inboard of the seat back.
This is because the de-dion kit I got was designed for a standard width chassis and mine is a McSorely 7+4. You can fit the de-dion to a book chassis
albeit ideally with a minor mod to the back end to give more room for axle articulation (very easy mod)
Drop me an email (email button below) if you want more details.
Cheers,
Craig.
[Edited on 2/7/2003 by craig1410]
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Stu16v
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| posted on 2/7/03 at 08:58 PM |
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*waves hand* I'm here!
Everything Craig says is right, although the only minus point is making one yourself. Although not a big problem, an inaccurately made dedion tube
will be there for life, unless you are able to make the bearing mountings adjustable (not impossible, thats what Caterham do IIRC). With IRS, you make
it adjustable as it is fabricated, and with a live axle, all you have to do is weld the brackets for the trailing arms on as accurately as possible.
This is why I persuaded DAx to make me a tube minus their suspension brackets. That way I knew that both wheels were pointing the same direction, it
was just up to me to put my brackets on straight......
In fact, in some ways, the dedion in conjunction with an LSD on my car makes it a little boring. Even with a healthy 16v Vauxhall motor in it,
smacking the loud pedal to the floor just makes the car go forwards, not sideways, even mid roundabout (off road, of course)
No wonder they fit this axle setup to Cozzy and V8 powered Dax's.....
HTH Stu.
Dont just build it.....make it!
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Mark Allanson
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| posted on 2/7/03 at 10:31 PM |
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I've gone for good old fashioned live axle (capri), but my trailing arms are the rear radius arms from a Nissan Bluebird (£10 for 4 adjustable
and one set length from a scrappy near you). these could be used on a DeDion setup and give you all the adjustabiltiy you could want. Use the set
length as a datum and the 3 adjustable ones attached to the axle, the last adjustable is extended with 19mm seamless to make the panhard rod (again
adjustable) It save a load of bother making you own trailing arms and gives you a fully adjustable rear end. Simple really
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craig1410
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| posted on 2/7/03 at 10:52 PM |
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Hi Stu, I knew you'd back me up 
Yes the alignment is quite critical but I think I managed it quite easily by making a couple of "railway tracks" which were held exactly
parallel by clamping them either side of a piece of 2"x2" SHS tubing. I then laid my large tubes (the ones the driveshafts go through) on
these tracks at the correct spacing and lowered the de-dion/ears assembly onto the top. I then made sure that everything was plum/parallel/centered as
appropriate before packing the inboard ends of the large tubes up by the width of two hacksaw blades to give me some toe-in. I calculated using trig.
that this was the required amount to give me 1 degree of toe-in on each side (2 deg total). I would be happy with zero toe but in case my alignment
was off I introduced 2 degrees so that I am relatively certain not to get any toe-out which would tend to make the back end twitchy under power.
Once everything was aligned and triple checked I put in some tack welds carefully making sure that nothing was moving between welds. Oh yes, the other
thing I did was to make sure that the hub carrier mounting plates were exactly square to the ends of the large tubes before tacking them separately.
My intention is to seam weld the rest of the chassis but leave the "sturdy" tack welds on the de-dion setup until I can get it on a wheel
alignment jig where I can check my handywork. If it's wrong then I can adjust before final welding (or just buy a Dax setup if it would suit a
wider chassis okay)
If you have access to a proper building table with a solid metal top and V blocks etc then alignment would be easy.
HTH,
Craig.
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Rorty
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| posted on 3/7/03 at 01:28 AM |
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Well done to one and all. That's a good array of helpful information for a newbie. Really good thread.
Cheers, Rorty.
"Faster than a speeding Pullet".
PLEASE DON'T U2U ME IF YOU WANT A QUICK RESPONSE. TRY EMAILING ME INSTEAD!
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Beeker
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| posted on 3/7/03 at 06:26 AM |
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Thanks for all the advice.It's good to know there are other people out there that been in the same situation and are willing to help out.Thanks
again
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craig1410
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| posted on 3/7/03 at 12:00 PM |
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Yes we have our moments. There are in fact very few questions which have not been asked and it is always tempting to just say to a Newbie to go search
the forum but having been a Newbie myself not that long ago (maybe I still am...) it was always better to get direct help rather than try to find and
filter out good information from bad. There are older threads which provide information which is simply not in line with currect thinking and
techniques and this can be very bad for any newbies who come across it.
I'd like to see a facility on this website for us to create "maintained" articles detailing current techniques where newbies can go
for a databurst before starting anything. A bit like an FAQ but more detailed and structured. The documents themselves wouldn't need to be all
that complex but they should be a distillation of the most commonly held opinions based upon the best information available and would change over time
as new ideas are born. Someone would be assigned as the editor for each topic and would be responsible for filtering out good ideas from bad and would
have the final say on what goes in and what doesn't. Obviously our webmaster would govern at a higher level to ensure that nobody goes off on a
power trip. Suggestions could be provided to the editor by anyone and potentially added to the distillation if constructive.
Topics that I would suggest as examples would be: Chassis design, Front suspension, Rear suspension; Chassis Protection (paint/powder/galv); Steering;
Braking; Drivetrain; Electrics; Bodywork; Interior; Engine (Various - RV8, Ford xflow, etc etc). There are many more that I can think of but you get
the idea.
I think it would be important that personal preferences be ruled out of the documents. We should just state the facts and figures and pro's and
con's of any choices to keep it balanced. If someone doesn't want to maintain the document any more then it could be passed on to someone
else.
What do you guys think?
I'd be happy to handle something like rear suspension or RV8 engine for starters to get the ball rolling. There is so much good (and some
bad/outdated) information on this forum that it seems a shame not to "wrap it up" into a more accessible package.
Cheers,
Craig.
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ned
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| posted on 3/7/03 at 12:29 PM |
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sounds good, this has been mentioned before. eg sections for which uprights & balljoints etc, which engine/gearbox combo's, sump mods,
steering rack & column mods, what radiator to fit (polo, micro etc) etc etc.
Perhaps we should drop this into anything else / website probs as another thread?
Ned.
beware, I've got yellow skin
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Viper
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| posted on 3/7/03 at 12:36 PM |
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OH boy Chris is gonna love you two for that suggestion
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ned
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| posted on 3/7/03 at 12:39 PM |
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we aim to please!!
that said, I'd be quite happy to build the pages if supplied enough access details to templates/server.. & content obviously!
Ned.
beware, I've got yellow skin
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blueshift
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| posted on 3/7/03 at 06:08 PM |
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If there are interested editors out there I could look into setting up a wiki or somesuch. though I don't have a snazzy locosty domain name like
this one.
give me a shout if you need some hosting though, this sounds like a good idea, I'll host it for nowt
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craig1410
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| posted on 3/7/03 at 08:09 PM |
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Glad you all see it as a good idea, I'm not surprised that it's been mentioned before to be honest.
Let's see what Chris has to say on the matter. I don't know if this is something which can easily be incorporated into the existing
website design or not. I'd be happy to help on the technical side as well if required as I am an IT consultant and perhaps more importantly I
have website relevant skills. (Not that you'd know it from looking at my site... )
It would be best I think if we could keep it all under the LB forum blanket so hopefully Chris has some aces up his sleeve and can set things up to
host some content. At the simplest each editor could just maintain a specially created forum message/thread within a separate "How To"
section of the website. Each thread would have a name such as "Rear Suspension Design" and within the thread would be purely messages by
the editor detailing all that there is to know about that topic. Only the editor (and webmaster) would be allowed to post to these controlled threads.
Thinking about it, isn't there a "moderator" facility available (Chris?) where the editor could just be the moderator of that thread
and thus block (or accept) any replies as appropriate.
I dunno. This may be a load of unwanted hassle for Chris but let's wait to hear from him. I'll drop him an email to point him to this
thread and see what he says.
Cheers,
Craig.
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Viper
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| posted on 3/7/03 at 08:53 PM |
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That is assuming the editor/moderator of that section new what he was talking about and not just pushing his opinions..
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