Sideshow_Bob
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| posted on 21/8/07 at 07:19 AM |
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Sierra Upright Bottom Taper Reaming
Hi guys, just about to put my front suspension together, but need to get the sierra uprights modified to take the Maxi-bottom ball joint. Could anyone
give me details of the correct taper to ream out on the sierra upright?
Cheers in advance
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TGR-ECOSSE
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| posted on 21/8/07 at 07:38 AM |
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It was mentioned here LINKY
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40inches
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| posted on 21/8/07 at 08:00 AM |
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Do it yourself
http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.asp?src=07_wk33a&pf_id=23107&name=taper+reamers&user_search=1&sfile=1&jump=4
You need the 19mm reamer. Plenty of lubrication and steady pressure.
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SyKaTurbo
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| posted on 21/8/07 at 08:09 AM |
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Will either of those parts have the correct taper? I would have thought it would need a specific angle?
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40inches
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| posted on 21/8/07 at 08:17 AM |
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Yes,also same taper as track rod ends,cut taper on my Sierra uprights easily,very snug fit on taper and for £3.50 (the Robin Hood 2B
instruction?video recommends wobbling a drill around the hole )
[Edited on 21-8-07 by 40inches]
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SyKaTurbo
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| posted on 21/8/07 at 08:23 AM |
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well thats handy! Shall get one bought at that price 
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Sideshow_Bob
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| posted on 21/8/07 at 09:47 AM |
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Cheers guys ...putting my order in now!!
:-D
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afj
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| posted on 21/8/07 at 05:18 PM |
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this site is good ya know, i was gonna ask that very same question edit just a quick one Track rod ends -sierra? what year
transit drag liks/arms what year and
bottom ball joint austin maxi what year
[Edited on 21/8/07 by afj]
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big_wasa
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| posted on 21/8/07 at 05:56 PM |
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Locost Top Ball Joint -- Transit 1965 to 84 Drag Link End Right Hand Thread
Ford Part Number :17996516
QH (Quinton Hazel) Part Number QD1117RHT
AP (Automotive Products) Part Number TA298
Moprod Part number MDL1117R
Heyd Part Number F22.73
Lemforder Part Number 000.111.017.536
Redaelli Part Number F35
TRW Part Number 15ES0874
TVA Part Number F7.1
Unipart Part Number GSJ112
Frap Part Number 168
Ehreneich Part Number 022-8146-134-291
Track Rod Ends -- Cortina Mk3 to 5, Escort Mk2, Granada MK1 & 2
Ford Part Number 1476246
QH Part Number QR1384S
AP Part Number TA684
Moprod Part Number MTR1384
Firstline Part Number FTR4040
TRW Part Number 14ES0334
Unipar Part Number GSJ119
Bottom Ball Joint as per book Cortina MK3 to 5
Ford Part Number – not applicable
QH Part Number QSJ663S
AP Part Numbe TC73
Moprod Part Number MBJ663
Unipart Part Number GSJ123
Moprod Part Number MBJ663
Firstline Part Number FBJ5025
Alternative Lower Ball Joints suitable for MK style 2 bolt fixing to wishbones
Austin Maxi QSJ602S or Hillman Hunter/Chrysler 180 QSJ253S
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afj
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| posted on 21/8/07 at 06:01 PM |
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sorry forget to mension mk indy with sierra uprights
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Alan B
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| posted on 21/8/07 at 06:22 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by SyKaTurbo
Will either of those parts have the correct taper? I would have thought it would need a specific angle?
I agree....I'd be very sceptical that they were exactly the right angle....I may be wrong they may be the exact 1:8 taper needed......close is
not good enough, the tapers must match perfectly.
If the angle is perfect then I'll gladly hold up my hand and say I was wrong to have doubts......
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40inches
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| posted on 21/8/07 at 07:32 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan B
quote:
Originally posted by SyKaTurbo
Will either of those parts have the correct taper? I would have thought it would need a specific angle?
I agree....I'd be very sceptical that they were exactly the right angle....I may be wrong they may be the exact 1:8 taper needed......close is
not good enough, the tapers must match perfectly.
If the angle is perfect then I'll gladly hold up my hand and say I was wrong to have doubts......
I didn't measure taper of reamer,just drilled and tapered a test piece,it blued up perfectly. The weight of the chassis on lower ball joint is
enough to require using a ball joint separator. I'm happy with this and don't have a problem driving the finished car on track days,but
others must make their own minds up. The joint could always be lapped in with fine grinding paste.
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Alan B
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| posted on 21/8/07 at 08:14 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by 40inches
.......I didn't measure taper of reamer,just drilled and tapered a test piece,it blued up perfectly. The weight of the chassis on lower ball
joint is enough to require using a ball joint separator. I'm happy with this and don't have a problem...............
Can't argue with that.......... hand held up saying "I was wrong to have doubts"
Sounds like the reamer was a great deal.
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40inches
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| posted on 22/8/07 at 09:00 AM |
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Can't argue with that.......... hand held up saying "I was wrong to have doubts"
Sounds like the reamer was a great deal.
Time for me to hold my hand up to say it wasn't my idea, bookmarked this post http://locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=20446 this subject
was covered
years ago. Knew it would come in handy one day
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seventhheaven
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| posted on 4/2/13 at 09:46 AM |
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Reamer
Sorry Guys, I've bought a Axminster Reamer (as recommended above - plus a biscuit tin full of brands recommended on other forums) and found that
the taper angle isn't the correct 7.15degs (1.5 inches per foot) and therefore shouldn't be used. Some were over a degree out.
I had a good look for the correct reamer in the UK and failed. Maybe if I was in the trade, I'd know someone that could custom grind me one, but
I had to import mine from the states (not super cheap at £60). The only UK quote I had was over £160!!!
Our Yank friends have been doing this since the 50's and many of the big custom car suppliers sell special reamers. Tractor restoration
specialists are worth a look, as some were listed really cheaply but unlucky for me at the time, they were all 'out of stock'. I bought
mine on fleabay from these guys 'Chadwick reamers' #85020. The nicely ground
shaft, unlike the hand reamers, fitted my pillar drill chuck.
The keen eyed out there will spot this 4x4 upright has been professionally TIG welded. I'm not necessarily recommending this route, it's
just an experiment. The guy that welded the upright said they were good castings with few impurities which welded very well (about 30 seconds work).
He handed me the uprights seconds after the were welded and they were 'warm', not smoking hot. I have 2 sets of uprights, one welded the
other left with bolts. I think I'll go with the welded ones as they machined really cleanly without the gap. I think the gap caused some really
minor vibration on the unwelded ones and left a slightly pitted/dimpled surface. The welded ones however, look precision ground.
Cheap hand reamers....
Once you've got this cheap miracle hand reamer -what are you going to do with it? Hand ream a hole? A rabbit could dig a rounder hole in half
the time.
Come on! Are you just hoping the cast iron will deform around the ball joint when you tighten the bolt?
Unless you've got the worlds biggest chuck or a mill, the hand reamer would be too big to use in most powered devices.
Yeh, Yeh Yeh.... The hand reamed hole could be as good as the 20 year old rusted ones you see on some cars, but wouldn't you rather drive a car
that you know is right?
If you have access to a mill you're lucky, but I welded up a jig to hold my upright correctly on a large tilting bed pillar drill.
Also.... Be aware of some of the mushroom adaptors available. I bought some cheap from fleabay, only to find the reamed hole was 7degs not 7.15. (I
told the vendor and he's since stopped selling them) I wasn't so worried about these as the aluminium deform more easily as you tighten
down the ball joints nut and the reamed hole was at least round. Also as my roadster is 4x4, I found that I couldn't use off the shelf adaptors
as they as the 4x4 has a 50mm strut, whereas the 2wd has a 45mm strut and they fell through the hole. So I had to make my own after all.
Personally if I was an IVA tester, the question 'did you hand ream those uprights?' would be on my list of questions, as it's
potentially very dangerous.
Sorry, to harp on guys.....I know I sound grumpy.... Plus this thread is old now.......Just trying to share advice.....
25 years ago, a core plug blew on a drag strip at over 90mph and I came to halt unharmed, just over the line, on my door. Therefore things like ball
joints give me the heebie geebies.
[Edited on 4/2/13 by seventhheaven]
4wd 3.9 Rover V8 Locost 7 - Super 7th Heaven
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britishtrident
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| posted on 4/2/13 at 07:44 PM |
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There is a big difference between enlarging and existing taper and cutting a tapper into a plain hole that probably isn't even round.
Personally I regard welded suspension up casting are a major no - no before welding any safety critical part you really need to be 100% sure
of the metallurgy of the part and the resulting weld.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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seventhheaven
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| posted on 15/4/13 at 04:39 PM |
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I'm a little confused by the above comments, firstly,
There is a big difference between enlarging and existing taper and cutting a tapper into a plain hole that probably isn't even round. -
Is this addressed at me? Or is it condoning poor workmanship and wrong tooling? Surely not?
Secondly, this is the one I need help on. Surely, the metallurgy of the part is not in question, as the standard item is strong enough and TIG welds
very well. The question is the differential change in the flexing characteristics caused by the welding.
My understanding
Welding cast cast metal causes a differential change in the strength and heat absorption characteristics. In this case the weld is much stronger than
the material around it. If I welded a long cast bar then flexed it, it would no longer flex in a single arch, but 3 separate arches until it's
breaking point is reached. It would probably shear at the fixed end side close to but not inside the welded joint.
With the standard upright I'm guessing the weak points, where bottom joint fractures would occur on the limit; would be fore and aft of the
tapered hole where the material is thinnest. I could see potential for fractures to occur closer to the horizontal clamp bolt it the tapers did not
match, the ball joint was loose or the bottom joint had hammered in too hard. But what really happens when you weld up this gap?
I spoke to the old guy that welded the upright. He's a 4th generation welder, with 30 years experience in welding heavy farm machinery, military
engine blocks etc. He simply said 'trust me it's strong and it won't break', 'I could get it tested for you, but all
that would show is, I can weld'.
I really needed to stress test them but that would mean breaking several welded and un-welded items, so computer FEA is the only real option.
Unfortunately, my FEA (Finite Element Analysis) guy has emigrated, and I struggle lots with the software as it locks my laptop lots every-time I even
move the cursor. I gave up with that root. HELP all you FEA guys!
I had welded 2 uprights as a test, so now, I have 2 sets, one welded with perfect reaming on the bottom and the other with 'ok' reaming
and non-welded.
If I used the welded uprights,
- Is a greater strain placed on the ball joint lock nut?
- Are the shear points moved closer to the weld?
- The hole dimensions are down to the reaming operation, so is there a minimum diameter of the top and bottom holes?
If I used the non-welded uprights,
- Percentage wise, how much strain does the horizontal lock bolt take?
- What happens if the wrong taper, a loose joint or a over inserted joint have?
I reamed out the upright so the small-end diameter of the hole is 12.8mm. This means the threaded section of the balls joints I have starts 0.75mm
below the surface of the upright. About right? Too far? I wouldn't suggest people copy this figure blindly as a)It might be too far b)I'm
using Ambassador not Maxi ball joints (they are the same taper angle but might be different lengths).
Due to the uncertainty, I probably will go with the non-welded, but it would be good to get solid evidence it's the right choice.
There must be someone out there with 'real' FEA or Stress testing experience??? Am I asking too much? Sorry!
4wd 3.9 Rover V8 Locost 7 - Super 7th Heaven
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seventhheaven
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| posted on 17/4/13 at 08:52 AM |
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I don't know what made me type 12.8mm (ignore that - I had another job I was working on in my head!
I think it ended up about 15mm and 3mm below the surface.
This is the problem:
The diameter of the hole in the standard upright is 17mm. The small diameter of the ball joint taper is 15.5mm and the largest diameter 17.4mm.
In the above shot you can just see the sides of the standard hole (before reaming) highlighted yellow.
The upright is in Grey and the Maxi Ball Joint is in white.
The Red lines show the result of reaming out the sides of reaming the hole out to 7.15°. As you can see the ball joint can't be pressed too much
further into the hole as movement would be restricted and the rubber dust cover would also be pretty bunched up. You'd also have to put some
packing washers under the lock nut, as the ball joint would poke out of the top. If anything you want it to sit 3mm further out.
It would be simple if the ball joint was bigger wouldn't it?! Next Auto-jumble I'm going to measure every ball-joint I can see.
If you simply tightened up the clamping bolt, the the casting would distort and be put under abnormal amounts of stress. Sure there are loads of cars
with this modification already on the road and track but does that make it acceptable?
You could push the ball joint further into the hole so that the taper protrudes out of the top but you'd then have to insert packing spacers
under the lock nut.
Choice is yours.............Weld or not to weld....
There is loads more info on my blog here :
http://www.super7thheaven.co.uk/blog/sierra-upright-maxi-ba
ll-joint-reaming-a123.html
[Edited on 17/4/13 by seventhheaven]
[Edited on 17/4/13 by seventhheaven]
4wd 3.9 Rover V8 Locost 7 - Super 7th Heaven
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dave_424
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| posted on 17/4/13 at 10:24 AM |
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For my autograss project that used cortina uprights, I drilled out the tapers, added two top hats that would be inserted in both ends and used a
studded rose joint like this:
Probably not up to road legal specs, but it got the job done.
I did have a studded rose joint pull out of it's press fit when I was doing about 80mph down a field, pretty much plowed 10m of field.
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Camber Dave
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| posted on 18/4/13 at 09:17 PM |
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As Drawn it appears that your ball joint will bottom out when the nut (and spacing washer) is tightened.
How about Turning a 7.15 deg internal tapered bush. Check the taper/penetration with Engineers blue.
Turn the outer diameter to suit an enlarged parallel hole in the upright.
Retain a flange to take the vertical load. (top hat bush with the flange on the narrow end of the taper)
This also 'absorbs' the 'excess' thread
Use the Ford cotter bolt to locate the bush in an unwelded upright.
You may even find a buyer for the reamer....
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Irony
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| posted on 19/4/13 at 08:14 AM |
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I bought the hand reamer from Axminster as recommended by so many people on here. After struggling for hours I finally got the knack and reamed them
out. I was dubious at first but now there done I cannot detect any wobble or misalignment at all by hand.
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