Richard Quinn
|
| posted on 5/9/08 at 09:51 AM |
|
|
Autograss engine suggestions...
Ok, as you lot are quite used to lateral thinking I thought I would share a challenge that I have been presented with...
Just to set the scene, my mate who builds and races Autograss Specials is currently racing a Class 8 with a decent, but not excessive spec'd
'busa in it. He generally builds a new car for himself each season and is now thinking about next season's car and he sort of fancies
going back to Class 10 (in basic terms - single or twin engine, anything goes). He has previously had two Class 10s in the time I've known him;
one was a twin Aprilia RSV engined job and the one before that had a highly impressive Evo VI motor mounted transverse with a GB Engineering 2 speed
box. This one was an amazing fire-breathing animal!
He is now developing his own direct drive drive box so a car engine is feasible again but he fancies something different so there's the
challenge...
Let's hear your suggestions for suitable engines. They need to be compact (the more compact the better), light and powerful. The engine will be
transverse mounted behind the cab and using one of his drive boxes. The engine also has to exist and be available to Joe Public (i.e. the chances of
getting a Vodafone/McLaren cast-off are nil!).
Please also restrict your suggestions to internal combustion engines.
Over to you...
|
|
|
|
|
Paul TigerB6
|
| posted on 5/9/08 at 09:56 AM |
|
|
4.2L Audi V8 from the RS4 etc??
|
|
|
iank
|
| posted on 5/9/08 at 10:10 AM |
|
|
Mazda RX8 rotary
--
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
Anonymous
|
|
|
nick205
|
| posted on 5/9/08 at 10:12 AM |
|
|
First question has to be what engine/set-up are the competitive cars in his chosen class running with? I'm all for the pioneering spirit, but
if he's looking to compete and win then that should the start point.
On the other hand - what about TDI power?
It's working well for other race sries - Le Mans, BTCC etc.
Either a remapped 2.0 4 pot to keep size and weight down or a 3.0 V6 for more grunt. Could even go to a 4+ litre V8 if you want.
On the petrol front, assuming he's over the bike engine thing, then the VW/Audi motors seem another obvious choice.
|
|
|
Richard Quinn
|
| posted on 5/9/08 at 11:15 AM |
|
|
There is a real mish-mash of machinery in Class 10 ranging from twinny BECs to V8s with the odd bit of exotica thrown in. The Powertec V8 made an
appearance and was reasonably competitive but the usual front runners are twin GSXR's and twin R1's generally with the odd single big bore
'busa.
He builds competitive cars for others and builds more innovative/fun/because-he-can type cars for himself. He no longer competes at topflight level
and is looking for something that will cause a bit of a stir.
|
|
|
Duncan_P
|
| posted on 5/9/08 at 11:19 AM |
|
|
From what i remember most of the competitive people in this class run twin Bike engines so along that line twin zx14 motors has got to be a
consideration.
Without knowing exactly how much space there is its difficult to make other suggestions but if there is room for a straight 6 then how about a volvo
or a nissan skyline engine. Easy to get the power to be competative, not so sure about the drivability.
As an off the wall suggestion how about a Porshe Turbo engine or an engine from a new Skyline GTR
|
|
|
will121
|
| posted on 5/9/08 at 11:26 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by iank
Mazda RX8 rotary
i thought about a rotary engine when looking at this
http://www.mad-max-racing.com/Top%20Fuel%20Bike.htm
but then thought about the 2stroke snow mobile engine but that may better suit class 8
|
|
|
Duncan_P
|
| posted on 5/9/08 at 11:40 AM |
|
|
Another jap turbo idea, but slightly more compact and lighter than the straight 6's. How about a VQ30DET engine.
Rare in this country but seen more regularly in Japan in such cars as the rather amusingly named Nissan Cedric 
This engine was used as the basis for the engines in the JGTC Skylines (etc) from the early 2000's so can't be too bad 
|
|
|
iank
|
| posted on 5/9/08 at 11:56 AM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Duncan_P
Another jap turbo idea, but slightly more compact and lighter than the straight 6's. How about a VQ30DET engine.
Rare in this country but seen more regularly in Japan in such cars as the rather amusingly named Nissan Cedric
This engine was used as the basis for the engines in the JGTC Skylines (etc) from the early 2000's so can't be too bad
Should be sturdy enough, they use the Cedric for taxi's in Tokyo.
--
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
Anonymous
|
|
|
MikeR
|
| posted on 5/9/08 at 12:29 PM |
|
|
volvo 5 pots and saab 4 pots can make silly power. Would need a special gearbox to handle it though.
Also heard that suburu's gearboxes are the weak point .... it would give you a lowish COG
|
|
|
Richard Quinn
|
| posted on 5/9/08 at 02:29 PM |
|
|
Just a reminder that it needs to be transverse so not too long a lump. Gearbox isn't an issue as will be using a direct drive drive-box.
The VQ30DET is a good call but we would would want the power of the VQ30DETT (note the 2nd T!).
I've tried uploading a picture of a chassis this afternoon so you can see what room there is to play with but can't do it from work. If
you want to see one or two, have a look at www.drdracing.co.uk and click the "cars" bit.
Cheers
|
|
|
Duncan_P
|
| posted on 5/9/08 at 02:59 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Quinn
The VQ30DET is a good call but we would would want the power of the VQ30DETT (note the 2nd T!).
I very much doubt that you could 'persuade' Nissan to sell you a VQ30DETT
From what remember VQ30DET puts out towards 300bhp in standard from, which is obviously not enough for your purposes. But knowing normal japanese
engineering especially considering its normal home is a saloon car this figure should be fairly easy to improve upon. I know tuning these engines
isn't that common but i have heard of some with some fairly silly outputs.
Now the next question is can i replace my zetec install in my MK with a VQ30DET
|
|
|
MikeRJ
|
| posted on 5/9/08 at 04:03 PM |
|
|
Would a GM LS7 be too large? 500bhp out of the box, 650bhp version available. Rather heavy on the pocket though.
The LS2 is quite a bit cheaper and about 400bhp standard.
|
|
|
Richard Quinn
|
| posted on 5/9/08 at 05:20 PM |
|
|
If it compares physical size wise with the LS1 it can be done! Don't worry about the light on the pocket bit too much, there was nearly £20k
tied up in the back of the Evo VI engined car. The Motec management alone cost more than some people's cars!
|
|
|
NS Dev
|
| posted on 6/9/08 at 12:30 PM |
|
|
I'd steer well clear of anything with a turbo...having raced in autograss a fair bit!
How much winning did the Evo powered one do? I'd hazard a guess not as much as the cost would suggest!
I'd second the chevy choice, but the difficult bit is whether to go LS chevy or old HO smallblock with an aftermarket alloy block.
If I had £20k to spend, which on a grasser with a "free" gearbox accounts to around £10K engine budget, I'd definitely look at an
alloy block smallblock chevy, as 700hp is easy enough on a holley carb at that budget.
look here for inspiration....if he wanted to bring one over I can give him a contact who regularly imports a lot of them (my mate at Ultima) who could
organise shipping etc etc.
American Speed Linky
IN ball park figures, around $16,000 gets you 600 RELIABLE hp, which is well under £10,000 shipped. (if done the right way)
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
|
|
|
NS Dev
|
| posted on 6/9/08 at 12:34 PM |
|
|
Re. the chevy being too large, I have seen 3 autograss specials with transverse chevies in the back and it makes for a very neat installation.
Another option would be a SCAT V4, again from the USA, as run by the grassin' grandad about 10 years ago.
They make 400hp in a neat V4 package.
I think Geoff Berrisford was running one this year but I've never seen it.
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
|
|
|
NS Dev
|
| posted on 6/9/08 at 12:45 PM |
|
|
Without the blower they are quite small.........no idea where you'd get one from now, not sure if scat still build them!
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
|
|
|
iank
|
| posted on 6/9/08 at 12:49 PM |
|
|
Is that a V8 that's had a run in with mr bandsaw? Looks bonkers (in a good way)
--
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
Anonymous
|
|
|
Richard Quinn
|
| posted on 6/9/08 at 12:53 PM |
|
|
He's been racing for over twenty years so has tried most things in the past. The Evo motor worked quite well but the management was very
expensive to provide proper anti-lag etc. GB has had the Scat out fairly recently and it is a cracking engine but at the moment, in the absence of
anyone coming up with an ebay formula racing engine find, the LS is looking good.
|
|
|
NS Dev
|
| posted on 6/9/08 at 01:10 PM |
|
|
Stick with the chev, either LS or older smallblock (as in older design, still new build! ) as these are rather underrated, and in both cases very
light for their power and quite compact.
Formula engines are not worth the trouble.
I know somebody in the past has run a Judd v8 in a grasser but the rebuild costs are astronomical!!
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
|
|
|
