Hi guys, I know theres lots of threads here on this subject but few actually give a clear idea of the performance difference.

I'm currently in the market for a 7 style car and the only thing I can't decide on is car or bike engined! My main use will be track days (proly 90% of use) and I'll proly be 2 up half the time. Now I know the bec will be faster to 100 from what I've read here but how much faster ? are we talking a second or 3-4 seconds ? If I was going for car engine it would proly be the 4age engine. So how would this compare to The likes of a blade or r1 powered car ?

I live in Ireland so I reckon it would be difficult enough to find someone to work on a bec but then I do like the idea of a sequential box

Any advise before I buy ?

Cheers.

oooo 'eck you've done it now, where's me popcorn?

and in the BLUE corner.......

DING DING ROUND 1

ps BEC lol


dave

If its a stock 4AGE then the BEC should be a fair bit quicker - depends how light you make the car. Can't easily put any accurate numbers on it though!

If you look at quarter mile times an R1 BEC should do it in low 13's or high 12's depending on tyres and gearing. I don't have any times for a 4AGE engined car but I'm sure someone will. I doubt its going to be more than a second in the quarter mile. If you pick a particular speed like 0 to 60 or 0 to 100 then you may see a fair advantage with the BEC as often they can hit 60 in first or 100 in third, again depends on gearing.

If you're mostly doing track work then the revs and sequential box of the BEC should be favourable, much like if you'd said mostly road use or touring someone would probably recommend a CEC for lower cruise RPM and having reverse as standard

Aren't CEC better on fuel too?

I don't know for sure.

However my R1 Fury can do mid 30's if you keep the speed (and therefore revs) down.

My mate with a 2.0 XE engined Westie on twin 45's gets 22mpg most of the time...

Horses for courses as far as I am concerned.
My roadgoing Spyder Silverstone kitcar has a 2 litre 16V 160hp engine.
Our trackday Phoenix has a 140 odd hp 929 'blade engine.
Both are perfectly suited to their environment.
I've never measured the performance of either but I suspect the Phoenix to be quicker through the gears.
Carrying a passenger reduces the BEC's advantage though.
The Phoenix, however, feels LOADS quicker and will also outcorner and outbrake the Spyder due to it's lightness advantage.
12,000 revs and paddle shift sequential gear changes. Addictive. Hypnotic.

So, I would say, given 90% trackday use, Buy a BEC.
There. I've said it.

CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC

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Originally posted by l0rd
CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC

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The other advantageof the lower weight of a BEC is that you can go round corners faster and stop faster too. Sequential changes are probably quicker as well.

However, you say you'll be 2 up, in which case the second person will take away your weight advantage compared to a single person in the same sort of car. (I dont know about all engines, but a 2.0 duratec with standard gearbox/clutch/starter/alternator etc weighs about 165kg. A bike engine is about 80 to 85. If you engineer the whole of the rest of the car the same (apart for engine and box) you will end up about 80kg lighter. If you go on the road you will need reverse, and this will add another chunk of cost and eat away a few kg of weight advantage.
2 people weight (say) 150kg, so your 'all up' weight of the BEC will be about 600kg, of the CEC 680kg.
I would expect the CEC to be much more durable in the engine/gearbox area, whereas the BEC is going to be limited in this respect.
Having said all that people with BECs don't seem to be complaining about silly failure rates.

Just a few more things to think about
Regards
Hugh

ETA SPYDER seems to have made most of the same points while I was thinking....

[Edited on 13/12/10 by hughpinder]

A blade is only about 62Kg and an R1 isn't much more. 80 to 85kg is either a blackbird or a Busa kind of weight (both could do with a dry sump). So maybe a 100Kg weight advantage in the engine/gearbox combo. Then you can maybe save a bit more by going for solid rather than vented disks but we're talking a kg or two tops.

Its nice being able to pick up the complete engine and gearbox by yourself - certainly with the Blade / R1 but a Blackbird is a bit of a back strainer!

The easy answer to your question is that a BEC will generally be quicker round a track than the 4AGE in the same car.

After that the BEC vs CEC question depends on which engines you want to compare.....

e.g. A 300 BHP duratec in a well set up car is hard to beat unless you have a Haybusa turbo etc etc. the real question is how far/fast do you want to go?

A deliberatley provocative post if ever I saw one! :]

Get a ride in both and decide for yourself... This is not a decision I would be ahppy to make based upon others peoples views.. It is so subjective, you will always recieve a 50/50 answer...

For my money, for what you want, a BEC with a bigger lump would be good (ZX12, Busa, ZX14, Blackbird etc).... But dont decide until you actually know what they are like to be in.

Pinto Power

See this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWkNAQW9fXc

that vids been removed...

bec every time in a seveny thing!

as a performance comparison, i left a tuned r33 skyline easily behind me pretty easily

Thanks for the responses. I know that most of these topics create a bit of bec/cec rivalry and that wasnt my intention (really). My problem is that here in Ireland these cars are not nearly as common as the UK and getting to try them out first would be very difficult. I have a bike (CBR1000) myself so I do have a good idea how they perform on 2 wheels anyway. My concern is the 2 up performance, I reckon the cec would suffer a lot less with 2 up vs the bec with the extra torque they should have.

Ive watched a ton of youtube videos of these cars on track days to give me an idea of performance and still every day I change my mind.

TBH if I thought that the cec was only a small bit slower I proly go with it for relibility sake and the ease of finding someone willing to work on it.

decisions decisions .. I thought this would be easier !

How handy are you with the spanners?

Basic servicing is no more difficult with a BEC...

Given you're from Ireland, shouldn't it be FEC FEC FEC FEC FEC FEC FEC FEC FEC FEC

Hi

For a direct comparison of the same car with a ce and be, log onto the 750mc website and check out Gary Goodyears times for last year in the Kitcar championship. He was running a RAW Fulcrum with high spec'd small port 4age engine.
Then check this years times when he moved to RGB and ran the same car with a ZX12.

Should give you some kind of idea on performance.

Stick a V8 in it

The difference with a BEC when 2 up is just more noticable. To get the same power/weight with a 4pot CEC your going to need something with a fair bit of work done to it. My R1 will certainly match a 4age even 2up with luggage. It doesn't feel slow with a passenger... it just feels balistic when they get out!

How soon are you looking to get a car (sounds like you're looking at built cars)? You could always come over to Stoeleigh show in May and beg a few rides.

Just to put my bit in - on a track day does it really matter which is quicker? Especially when the difference is unlikely to be more than a second or five when two up. And believe me both will frighten your passenger.

Surely what matters is reliability and repair-ability - especially if as you say BEC skills are problematical where you live. In my very limited experience what really matters is driving quickly near the limit of your ability - and that both BEC and CEC will give you in bucketloads.

And, in my opinion, the CEC will be much easier on the wallet in the long term and have much less down time and give the local mechs much less income.

Also - whichever you get you will soon want more and then the question is which do you feel more confident about upgrading.

cheers lads, some good advice in here .. leaning towards cec at the moment, think it just might suit my needs better for now. How are the 2.0 pinto's in comparison to the 4age ?.. the pintos seem far more common by the looks of things.

Where abouts in Ireland are you, my mate has a 4age stuart Taylor and i have a westfield megablade i could show you around, im right up north in Co. Londonderry.

Put a V10 in it?

I wouldnt be too swayed by the mechanicals issue really. You'll no doubt learn to do most things yourself anyway and if you need something doing thats out of your league on the engine - well take it to a bike specialist instead of a car garage. I'd never done a bike clutch (or indeed owned a bike) until i built a BEC with 001Ben on here. We were both newbies to it although i had experience with CEC's having built 3 or 4. After a couple of goes at disassembly and reassembly of the clutch to fit the Barnett conversion during the build, i recon i could change a clutch in under 30 mins and not need a manual other than for the clutch cover bolt torque settings.

For a track day toy then i'd say BEC with a 98 - 2004 R1. Very reliable engines (02-04 with fuel injection) and pretty cheap if one goes bang. Two up and Ben's still felt loads faster than my old 173bhp Zetec Tiger S6. A tuned 4-age wont be cheap anyway - especially if you break it to get anywhere near the same performance - i have one in my MR2 mk1 (but not for long - its getting a 3L v6 next spring!!).

As said though - you really do need to get a go in both before deciding you NEED a BEC in your life!!

... and now swaying back towards bec ! !

Thanks for the offer Benzo, I'm down south in Kildare, would love to take you up on the offer but can't see having time this side of xmas ..

quote:

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Originally posted by v10
... and now swaying back towards bec ! !

Thanks for the offer Benzo, I'm down south in Kildare, would love to take you up on the offer but can't see having time this side of xmas ..

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quote:

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Originally posted by mookaloid
The easy answer to your question is that a BEC will generally be quicker round a track than the 4AGE in the same car.

After that the BEC vs CEC question depends on which engines you want to compare.....

e.g. A 300 BHP duratec in a well set up car is hard to beat unless you have a Haybusa turbo etc etc. the real question is how far/fast do you want to go?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Paul TigerB6
i have one in my MR2 mk1 (but not for long - its getting a 3L v6 next spring!!).

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OK well I decided on the bec route and came across a Stuart Taylor Locoblade locally so its now mine


Near Side Rear View

Its seems to be in very good condition and engine runs well. It'll be a few weeks before I get a good run in it as thats when the next day is on.

I wonder if anyone on here used to own or know this car ?

Maintenance shouldn't be an issue. You have a bike....who does that?


For example.. Car clutch ... A day maybe to fit?
Bike clutch... 30 or so mins


90% trackdays...BEC
90% road...BEC
Anything..


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BEC