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Name the technique

jos - 14/6/07 at 07:28 PM

Is this heel & toe-ing????

heel and toe??

VBH in an atom BTW

Volvorsport - 14/6/07 at 07:30 PM

yes

jos - 14/6/07 at 07:32 PM

and using the technique speeds up what??

Gear changes/synchronising the engine speed with the road speed/increases the stability of the car under braking????

and basically you press all three pedals when you depress the clutch, thus blipping the throttle in preparation of the next gear being installed

The Baron - 14/6/07 at 07:44 PM

Yeap, heal 'n' toe

Fatgadget - 14/6/07 at 07:45 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ts29KKhKXds

ecosse - 14/6/07 at 07:53 PM

More nice footwork
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0j-3xIZK-Bk

Cheers
Alex

rusty nuts - 14/6/07 at 08:19 PM

Also called "riding the clutch"

Stu16v - 14/6/07 at 08:40 PM

quote:
Originally posted by rusty nuts
Also called "riding the clutch"

Never heard that. I thought that was when folk CBA to take their foot off the clutch pedal - or slipping the clutch to get the motor back into the power band...

[Edited on 14/6/07 by Stu16v]

jos - 14/6/07 at 08:56 PM

[Edited on 14/6/07 by jos]

ELO - 14/6/07 at 09:28 PM

here is a really good demo of heel and toe. Check out the vid at the bottom of page, it takes you though it slowly - all makes sense at this speed!
Not yet managed to get it myself, more practice needed...

ed

matt.c - 14/6/07 at 09:29 PM

Been trying this in the tin top but just cant get the hang of it! Its really hard!

clockwork - 14/6/07 at 11:01 PM

TBH if you are struggling to get the hang of this it may not be your fault. In some cars this is really easy, it just comes down to the spacing and height between the pedals. For my size 11's I find french cars not too bad, but japanese cars pretty aweful. (Not saying I drive well though :-) )

speedyxjs - 15/6/07 at 07:03 AM

Its either heel and toe or too big a right foot

Gergely - 15/6/07 at 07:37 AM

I can just manage it (very slowly though) in my old Nissan Sunny. But it is impossible in my Astra. There is not enough room for my 11 size feet and especially ankle. When you see the Walter Rohl video, there is nothing around the pedals, so he can place his feet as he likes... So yes, difficult technique, but depends on the car and pedal setup...

So the question is: How do we set up the pedals in the Locosts to be able to do this in the car?
Gergely

DarrenW - 15/6/07 at 09:53 AM

Ref pedal position - is it about knowing how far down the brake pedal is when you get desired bite and then having throttle pedal at that height - then enough space so you can get your double jointed ankle contorted across to blip the throttle with your heal whilst keeping toes on brake. All within 4.68 nanoseconds before you get face whipped by the hedge on oustide of bend?????

Marcus - 15/6/07 at 12:09 PM

Do it all the time in the Locost, can't reach in the tintop though. Allows for smoother gear changes, therefore less clutch wear. (that's why I do it anyway - oh and it sounds good too!)

chunkytfg - 18/6/07 at 11:29 AM

I'm assuming the atom is either a BEC or has a syncro box in it as from what i was taught.

with a proper normal gearbox you are supposed to clutch down into neutral clutch up rev engine clutch down slect gear clutch out.

gingerprince - 18/6/07 at 02:02 PM

quote:
Originally posted by chunkytfg
I'm assuming the atom is either a BEC or has a syncro box in it as from what i was taught.

with a proper normal gearbox you are supposed to clutch down into neutral clutch up rev engine clutch down slect gear clutch out.

All modern cars have synchro gears now. the technique you describe (double-declutch) is as you say for "proper normal" gearboxes without synchro's, except that's "olden day" stuff now. It was required to enable you to get into gear full stop, not make things smoother (ala heel/toe).

chunkytfg - 18/6/07 at 03:18 PM

quote:
Originally posted by gingerprince

quote:
Originally posted by chunkytfg
I'm assuming the atom is either a BEC or has a syncro box in it as from what i was taught.

with a proper normal gearbox you are supposed to clutch down into neutral clutch up rev engine clutch down slect gear clutch out.

All modern cars have synchro gears now. the technique you describe (double-declutch) is as you say for "proper normal" gearboxes without synchro's, except that's "olden day" stuff now. It was required to enable you to get into gear full stop, not make things smoother (ala heel/toe).

ahh crossed purposes. By syncro i didnt mean syncro mesh as i realise all modern stuff has that i meant push for up and pull for down..

iank - 18/6/07 at 03:34 PM

Think sequential was the word you were looking for.

chunkytfg - 19/6/07 at 04:44 PM

quote:
Originally posted by iank
Think sequential was the word you were looking for.

thats the one!!

skydivepaul - 26/6/07 at 03:36 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Gergely
I can just manage it (very slowly though) in my old Nissan Sunny. But it is impossible in my Astra. There is not enough room for my 11 size feet and especially ankle. When you see the Walter Rohl video, there is nothing around the pedals, so he can place his feet as he likes... So yes, difficult technique, but depends on the car and pedal setup...

So the question is: How do we set up the pedals in the Locosts to be able to do this in the car?
Gergely

if you fit pedal extensions like OMP or sparco type that you can buy at halfrauds etc, put the two small ones on the brake and clutch and the big one on the throttle. it gives you a bigger area to press when blipping the throttle.

the technique is difficult to learn and i find it can only be done properly at race speeds. i.e if you are braking very hard at the end of a straight you should have the brake pedal nailed down as far as it will go. you can then blip the throttle without losing or more importantly gaining additional brake pressure. if you try to heal and toe when driving normally you will not be applying full brake pressure and when you go to try to blip the throttle you will almost certainly alter the pressure you have on the brake pedal. this will usually end up in you applying more pressure and sending your passenger towards the windscreen.

the idea of the technique is to bring the gearbox internal shafts to the same speed as the flywheel / clutch to ensure a smooth transition when changing gears.
most commonly used when changing down the box (shouldnt need to do it chen changing up in a car with syncromesh box.

the ideal way to do it is:

brake
clutch in
gear into neutral
clutch out
blip throttle (with clutch out)
clutch in
select next gear

this is very hard to achieve and most people including myself do this

brake
clutch in
blip thorttle whilst changing into next gear
clutch out

this is not as effective as the engine is disconnected from the gearbox by virtue of the clutch being in, but you do get some connection even with the clutch in. you just have to blip the throttle more

hope this makes sense

cheers

Paul

[Edited on 26/6/07 by skydivepaul]

Macbeast - 29/6/07 at 03:18 AM

I thought the idea of double declutching was to match the engine speed to the gear that you're going into (ie you speed up the engine when changing down ) - necessary when using a crash box.

And I thought heel and toe was double-declutching while braking.

But maybe it's just a way of making a rorty noise to impress the girlies

les - 29/6/07 at 10:00 AM

hi,

all of the above is correct- the big reason on the racetrack is to prevent the extra engine braking you get when you change down and let the clutch out- imagine you enter the braking zone and brake at the limit of grip, if you then chang down you add extra engine braking to the driven wheels- which can lead to locking those wheels- possibly leading to a spin ina rear wheel drive car.

if you heel and toe, you maintain the same smooth braking to all wheels wheile changing down.

especially important with a light rear end like our cars!!

les

Macbeast - 5/7/07 at 03:38 AM

Another good heel and toe demo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hslnyLzR_Wc&NR=1

awinter - 11/7/07 at 02:24 PM

Drove an elise at silverstone, because I did not heel and toe when I changed down through the gears the back wheels would lockup momentarily as the back was light due to the breaking. Not really a problem on a front drive car but still used to keep things smooth..
Only used on modern cars during breaking to match engine speed with gearbox speed. I should really do it on the striker but have not mastered it at all yet.

edspurrier - 27/7/07 at 09:16 PM

I thought the idea of heel and toe was to match clutch and first motion shaft speed, and gearbox shaft speeds, which you only do if you blip in neutral with the clutch out.

Bliiping with the clutch up speeds engine up but the gearbox shafts will still be at the wrong speeds.

skydivepaul - 2/8/07 at 09:28 PM

quote:
Originally posted by edspurrier
I thought the idea of heel and toe was to match clutch and first motion shaft speed, and gearbox shaft speeds, which you only do if you blip in neutral with the clutch out.

Bliiping with the clutch up speeds engine up but the gearbox shafts will still be at the wrong speeds.

even with the clutch in you still get some connection to the gearbox input shaft from the engine.

you just have to blip the trottle harder.
works better if you can engage neutral between the downshifts but this takes more practice

Aboardman - 5/8/07 at 12:13 AM

this bloke seems to know what to do even with bad shoes on,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8-zbfdPfRg

NS Dev - 7/8/07 at 06:20 PM

that's more like how I do it, with the rolling action of the ball of your foot on the brake pedal, but to be honest its not something that you really use on the road unless you are driving like a nutter, and at times like that the lockups on downshift can add to the adrenalin, you can't beat opposite locking INTO a corner.................that's why I like autograss!!