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Advice on Engine Choice for Vortx inboard

Autoflock Motorsport - 22/6/12 at 06:23 PM

Hello peeps,

as above really, im either building a fiesta zetec turbo or warming towards the idea of a 2.0 turbo zetec vortx. The engine itself will be around 450+ bhp but can be detuned and mapped to suit depending which car I go for.

I have been speaking to a chap with a 550bhp westfield who has totally warned me off the idea informing me of a lot of complication in regards to space and cooling.

Im just after some advice really on what engines to go for and their characteristics, I dont think a normally asprirated engine would be enough for me in terms of performance hence looking at forced induction.

suggestions and advice would be most appreciated

Kind regards

Raj

mookaloid - 22/6/12 at 06:47 PM

Obvious turbo engine choices are Nissan 200sx which comes ready with a rwd gearbox, Volvo again easily available gear box and Saab - will mate to the right GM box.

Welcome to the forum

Autoflock Motorsport - 22/6/12 at 07:04 PM

Hello Mook,

thanks for the reply and kind welcome,

never thought of the nissan 200,dont they have chocholate pistons? being in the motorsprot trade the first mod people do to these is install forged pistons when running over a bar of boost, one other engine I was thinking of was a boosted rx7 motor (rotary)

but tbh you have got me scratching my head in regards to the nissan option, I would really like to use the zetec engine though as my close friends are getting 400bhp+ frequently from their build plus I can provide full custom manifolds/fabrications which would help on the space, ive done some searching but im unable to see many if any turbo'd kitcars on here apart from the mx5 engine which isnt really my sort of engine

INDY BIRD - 22/6/12 at 07:13 PM

Link tO a post on here master done a zetec turbo ,

May help you?

http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=169067

Autoflock Motorsport - 22/6/12 at 07:16 PM

Cheers Indy,

just going to have a nose now whilst having my tea so will report back in a bit.

:-)

mookaloid - 22/6/12 at 07:20 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Autoflock Motorsport
Hello Mook,

thanks for the reply and kind welcome,

never thought of the nissan 200,dont they have chocholate pistons? being in the motorsprot trade the first mod people do to these is install forged pistons when running over a bar of boost, one other engine I was thinking of was a boosted rx7 motor (rotary)

but tbh you have got me scratching my head in regards to the nissan option, I would really like to use the zetec engine though as my close friends are getting 400bhp+ frequently from their build plus I can provide full custom manifolds/fabrications which would help on the space, ive done some searching but im unable to see many if any turbo'd kitcars on here apart from the mx5 engine which isnt really my sort of engine

Not an expert at turboing stuff (but I do run a Saab 9-5 turbo at about 300bhp) I would have thought you'd need forged pistons in more or less any 2 litre ish motor at 450bhp wouldn't you?

Autoflock Motorsport - 22/6/12 at 07:26 PM

lol

Hell yes, to get those figures from a zetec 2.0 you running at least 2 bar, but I meant on the det engines the standard pistons "seem" to be okay when the boost is upped to a bar, sometimes a tad more with accurate fuelling

Personally I have gone forged on every build I have done regardless of boost, the zetec engine at the mo is currently at the engine builders, the last one they made with the same spec as mine was de-tunes slightly for reliability produced 480 bhp, pretty simple combo in terms of internals, cp pistons, eagle rods, balanced std crank, custom inlet, exhaust etc

I would personally never run an engine with std pistons over 10psi, not even a bar but a lot of people do with good results, im just a bit paranoid of holes appearing in the crowns lol

That vid of the zetec was something I shouldnt of seen!!!!! ("types mnr vortex buy it now into google)

Autoflock Motorsport - 22/6/12 at 07:43 PM

is there any build threads on here with turbo's engines? just want to have a look at how they have piped in the colling system, intercooler/charge cooler etc

daniel mason - 22/6/12 at 07:53 PM

u2u sent

deezee - 22/6/12 at 07:55 PM

I think the good point of a lightweight sportscar is that you don't need daft power. At 480bhp its going to be a mind bending 850 bhp per tonne in a RWD Caterham ! Where as 480bhp in a FWD Fiesta is a torque steering 400bhp per tonne.

Therefore to have the same performance you only need a 250bhp engine. Much cheaper, much easier to install and cool.

nick205 - 22/6/12 at 07:59 PM

450 (turbo'd 2.0 litre) bhp in a fiesta or 7 type car.....?

Is there a specific purpose for the car like drag racing?

Autoflock Motorsport - 22/6/12 at 08:01 PM

quote:
Originally posted by deezee
I think the good point of a lightweight sportscar is that you don't need daft power. At 480bhp its going to be a mind bending 850 bhp per tonne in a RWD Caterham ! Where as 480bhp in a FWD Fiesta is a torque steering 400bhp per tonne.

Therefore to have the same performance you only need a 250bhp engine. Much cheaper, much easier to install and cool.

Very true, the fiesta is 500bhp per tonne!!! next to no torque steer as well, but to get the car to that was a very expensive trip, its a good friend who has built it and has my engine at the mo, gearbox internals 3400, dry sump kit 3000, drive shafts 500 etc

which is why im swaying towards the mnr and also going through a mid life lol

The bhp would be staggered via the boost control so the full ponies wouldnt be unleashed until the higher gears i.e. gear related boost control

Autoflock Motorsport - 22/6/12 at 08:06 PM

Hello nick

i am in the process of building a fiesta track car, the engine spec has pretty much been perfected to give that power so was thinking it would only need a few tweeks to make it work in a kit car, cam spec would have to be revised though and also the level of cooling available would have a huge effect on the final peformance, in terms of kitcars im really new to all of this so im after as much info as poss. From what I have seen so far such as at the strip typical kitcars bot n/a and bec dont really seem to do any decent times or terminals.

Whats the normal qtr mile pass in a highish spec kitcar and also what terminal?

The fiesta's are doing between 11.7 and 12.5 at 120+, 470bhp gets a 143 terminal

Autoflock Motorsport - 22/6/12 at 08:25 PM

just found this on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvGgQyI1FUw

this thing looks quick!!

Think I will make a trip over to mnr for a chat, spoke a few times on the phone and I popped over to one of their customers to look at a vortx in the flesh, it was a bec bit I got the ideal of the chassis etc, really like the look of it, although my plan is to go full carbon or at least wherever I can on it. Want as little metal as poss bar the chassis

mookaloid - 22/6/12 at 08:37 PM

it was a few years back but some of us had a go at York raceway.

I had a pinto engined indy with approaching 200bhp and did 13.1s

A honda S2000 engined car with about 250bhp was doing 11 .something low if I recall maybe someone else will remember

The fireblade engined cars were in the 12's

daniel mason - 22/6/12 at 08:41 PM

one thing would say is look on youtube at mnr vortx zzr 1400. paul is running way under 200 bhp and is seriously seriously quick on the hills.
only wish hed come to barbon manor for the climbs as im sure he'd break class record easily. power is nothing if youve got no traction

PAUL FISHER - 22/6/12 at 10:15 PM

quote:
Originally posted by mookaloid
it was a few years back but some of us had a go at York raceway.

I had a pinto engined indy with approaching 200bhp and did 13.1s

A honda S2000 engined car with about 250bhp was doing 11 .something low if I recall maybe someone else will remember

The fireblade engined cars were in the 12's

I remember the day well, great day out, but I think your a bit out on all your times there Mark

, your Indy did a 14.1, even the 300+bhp Nissan sx cars only did 12.1's, and the fastest blade was only around 13.3 ish, Chris Mason's standard N/A s2000 Indy the suprise of the day alot less power the the turbo cars, but also did a 12.1, the fastest car on the day was a BEC Blackbird with a shot of Nos did a 11.7

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XkeJkSO8CY

Autoflock Motorsport - 23/6/12 at 08:16 AM

cheers for the replies fellas,

really appreciate it, I know its not all about power as I was looking into buy a tiger avon a few years back from a firm called chester sports cars run by a guy called graham. First went out in a zx9r powered one then in a 2.0 zetec powered one. I found the bec to be quicker but the driving experience was not for me, the lack of tourque gave no real acceeration experience and everything felt fragile. The zetec was slower but really thumped you into your seat.

My idea was to fabricate a new rear end for the vortx, mainly the rear wings, I was thinking of producing a new carbonfibre rear end with a wider track to help cope with the power and increase traction, the same would be applied with the front cycle wings, but i would need agin more advice on this as im sure it would make the handling a bit skitty and easy to tramline but aimed at the track im sure something like and electronic p/steering conversion and damper install could resolve this.

Again these are just ideas in my head, I would be using this car as a demo for my firm, this was the intention for the fiesta, ive got the moulds for bonnet boot and roof and was in the process and doing a wider front wing/rear quarter and door kit but as the mid life has good a good hold of me im swaying towards the kit car, as i do powder coating and blasting as well these skills could also be applied to the kit car which would be on show a lot more as opposed to the fiesta.

PAUL FISHER - 23/6/12 at 12:23 PM

A tuning company in Japan, did this to a westfield a couple of years ago, giving a modern twist of the old westfield design to appeal to a younger market I suspect, but might give you a few ideas

[img]
Rescued attachment RE-Xtreme_Ex_RE_WFf.jpg [/img]

http://re-xtreme-extra.blogspot.co.uk/2010/01/left-field-westfield.html

D Beddows - 23/6/12 at 01:54 PM

OMG!!! after 10 years on here you get to think you've probably seen everything people could do to a 7alike........then something as hideous as that pops up and you realise you haven't even got close! that is without doubt the vilest kit car related thing I've ever seen

mookaloid - 23/6/12 at 10:09 PM

quote:
Originally posted by PAUL FISHER

quote:
Originally posted by mookaloid
it was a few years back but some of us had a go at York raceway.

I had a pinto engined indy with approaching 200bhp and did 13.1s

A honda S2000 engined car with about 250bhp was doing 11 .something low if I recall maybe someone else will remember

The fireblade engined cars were in the 12's

I remember the day well, great day out, but I think your a bit out on all your times there Mark, your Indy did a 14.1, even the 300+bhp Nissan sx cars only did 12.1's, and the fastest blade was only around 13.3 ish, Chris Mason's standard N/A s2000 Indy the suprise of the day alot less power the the turbo cars, but also did a 12.1, the fastest car on the day was a BEC Blackbird with a shot of Nos did a 11.7

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XkeJkSO8CY

I'm getting old

nick205 - 23/6/12 at 10:16 PM

quote:
Originally posted by D Beddows
OMG!!! after 10 years on here you get to think you've probably seen everything people could do to a 7alike........then something as hideous as that pops up and you realise you haven't even got close! that is without
doubt the vilest kit car related thing I've ever seen

you're not wrong Mr Beddows!

first350 - 25/6/12 at 06:47 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Autoflock Motorsport
My idea was to fabricate a new rear end for the vortx, mainly the rear wings, I was thinking of producing a new carbonfibre rear end with a wider track to help cope with the power and increase traction, ...

wider isn't necessarily better in a 7...with such a light weight car, it can be a real problem getting heat into the tires; obviously that depends on the type of driving AutoX/Track/Drag....just something to consider.