Hello, I'm brand new here, but Google threw up an interesting post about an engine swap in a cf2 so I thought I'd join up. Here's my
situation...
I own an 86 Bedford cf2 panel van. Rough looking old beast that I love more than life itself. Last autumn I began talks with a company called retro
engines ltd in somerset about giving my van a bit more power. The man at retro engines recommended fitting an Essex v6. We talked it through in great
detail over a few weeks and eventually I took my van down to him, with an Essex and gearbox from a Scimitar in the back, and handed over a deposit.
To cut a long story short... I was lucky to get my van back. The significant number of victims that have surfaced since the owner of that business
went into hiding in novembwer last year have lost a lot more than me. Not just thousands of pounds but engines and vehicles too. I learned a valuable
lesson, experienced getting ripped off for the first time in my life, but lived to tell the tale, with my van, minus a chunk of cash that I can afford
to lose, an engine and gearbox.
So here's my problem... All in all I lost too much money to be able to afford a v6 or v8 conversion, but my van is weak and under powered. I can
live with it, it keeps up with traffic, but I would like to explore 'second best' options now of trying squeeze just a tiny bit more power
out of the 2.0cih low comp petrol engine.
It currently has a 34ich carb on it. I am contemplating putting a new 32 36 weber on, a different cam, a better exhaust... Maybe having an engine
rebuild before all that... Anything to increase the power of the existing engine a modest amount now that I no longer have enough funds for an engine
swap.
The only other thought is to switch for an Opel manta GTE engine and ancilliaries as that would, I presume, slot in nicely without engine bay
modifications.
I was wondering if anyone could offer any thoughts, insights, tips etc about what I should do before I start spending the remainder of my funds on
carbs and cams and exhausts. I'm not looking to build a drag strip monster, just have a bit more power.
Hi sorry to read about the problems you have / had .
You say a manta engine will fit so i would think a ford zetec 2l would go in and a type9 gear box .
If you do a serch on here you will find no end of info on zetec combination's
jacko
quote:
Originally posted by jacko
Hi sorry to read about the problems you have / had .
You say a manta engine will fit so i would think a ford zetec 2l would go in and a type9 gear box .
If you do a serch on here you will find no end of info on zetec combination's
jacko
quote:
Originally posted by Ninehigh
Probably a tdci would be an improvement too
i'd be looking at a ford diesel myself these days i think. rwd transit should hold everything you need?
Thanks for the reply Jacko. Its worth considering that.
I suppose i'm drawn to the manta lump for the simple (and possibly naive) reason that the Bedford engine is the same engine block as the manta
GTE... So it would possibly be a more straightforward switch. I arrived here because Nat from Retro power posted in February advertising a cf2
beavertail for sale, which they had implanted a manta engine, running gear and ancilliaries into. I've emailed retropower just now to enquire if
that is still for sale. I'll wait and see what they say.
Ironically, right at the beginning, when I first purchased the van, I made a couple of inquiries at retro power, but ultimately decided on retro
engines two years later when I was ready. I deeply regret that costly decision now, which made on the basis that the retro engines man claimed he
could do it right away. Its possible to promise anything when you aren't intending to actually do it I guess!
Nat's on here btw, nsdev is his name.
i think you may struggle to find a manta GTE engine for decent money these days, but what about an ecotec? way cheaper, tuning parts are available
from SBD, and still the same block! Omega gearbox will fit straight up too
TDCIs have been dropped into beddies in the past. The general consensus amongst beddieheads is that they are INSANELY noisey, and don't offer any
real power improvement over the 2.0cih engine. My van is surprisingly fleet of foot on pull away, up to about 40mph... After that acceleration becomes
modest andleisurely, and the top speed is about 80mph. Any long uphill stretch will take that back to about 60mph.
I'd rather stick with petrol than diesel also... For entirely irrational reasons of still believing petrol engines to be better.
I love a zetec, cheap and easy. Use tha standard efi and have an easy reliable 150bhp.
quote:
Originally posted by blakep82
Nat's on here btw, nsdev is his name.
quote:
Originally posted by big_wasazetec, cheap and easy....reliable 150bhp.
Buy a Transit --- I knew the CF's back in their heyday a very inferior van to the early Transits, even when new they were horrible soggy things to drive terrible bump steer
volvo 740/940 turbo ...........
The ford Mt75 is very similar to the Manta Getrag and bolts on to a zetec no bother.
Britishtrident, an irrational love of bedfords prevents me from considering a transit. Its a labour of love. I love the mk1 and mk2 trannies, but the few remaining examples change hand as for insane amounts of money. PS George Grosz 's 1928 artwork... Interesting and distinct choice of avatar image!
MT75.... That's what I had, and lost, along with the Essex V6.
quote:
Originally posted by timbedford
MT75.... That's what I had, and lost, along with the Essex V6.
So... It seems so far that the recommendation is to stick with an engine swap rather than noodling about with my engine to try and eke out a bit more
power.
Seems like I need to start looking into options then. The missus is going to love it when I buy another engine (or possibly an entire donor car)!
Thanks for feedback and advice thus far!
you could alway pic up a cheap diesel granada or sierra and use the engine and box
Vauxhall Omega v6 should fit, I've fitted a Rover lump in an old CF so should have thought the V6 would fit
quote:
Originally posted by austin man
you could alway pic up a cheap diesel granada or sierra and use the engine and box
Hello Rusty nuts,
The V6 requires a lot of engine bay and bulkhead reworking, and then it would require a new interior engine cowl, single passenger seat, moving the
gear stick or going automatic so new pedal box, plus I never got far enough to know if the steering rack would be okay and all that stuff... It starts
to add up to a lot of stuff.
Since getting ripped off, I just can't afford to go down that road any more ... I can't do the work myself... So I now need to consider
options that are more 'plug and play'.
My thinking was 'make the best of what you have, throw a few toys at it and see if you can squeeze a bit more enthusiasm out of the existing
engine'. This would be the least complicated way forward. 250 quid on a carb, 200 on a piper cam (they actually supply a cam kit for this engine
believe it or not), get a better exhaust (better as in better not 'halfords rocketship funnel'
, the usual boy racer bits and bobs, but
without expecting miracles... Just trying to tease a wee bit more juice out of the old girl.
That would be the less obtrusive option, but I'd be throwing a lot of money at a lacklustre dinosaur engine and possibly seeing very little
improvement.
If I can slot in an ecotec, or a zetec, without having to carve out the engine bay, that may be the best option.
quote:
Originally posted by timbedford
TDCIs have been dropped into beddies in the past. The general consensus amongst beddieheads is that they are INSANELY noisey, and don't offer any real power improvement over the 2.0cih engine. My van is surprisingly fleet of foot on pull away, up to about 40mph... After that acceleration becomes modest andleisurely, and the top speed is about 80mph. Any long uphill stretch will take that back to about 60mph.
I'd rather stick with petrol than diesel also... For entirely irrational reasons of still believing petrol engines to be better.
Agree with op re transits, bedford cf has a fab shape. A friend had one all muralled with rover v8. We reckon it did about 10 mpg
I'm gonna suggest diesel, but 330 bmw and if the bulkhead needs modifying, so be it Lots of torques and economy, youll just need to change the
f/d to something more appropriate.
ATB
Simon
quote:
Originally posted by timbedford
My thinking was 'make the best of what you have, throw a few toys at it and see if you can squeeze a bit more enthusiasm out of the existing engine'. This would be the least complicated way forward. 250 quid on a carb, 200 on a piper cam (they actually supply a cam kit for this engine believe it or not), get a better exhaust (better as in better not 'halfords rocketship funnel'
My thinking was 'make the best of what you have, throw a few toys at it and see if you can squeeze a bit more enthusiasm out of the existing
engine'. This would be the least complicated way forward. 250 quid on a carb, 200 on a piper cam (they actually supply a cam kit for this engine
believe it or not), get a better exhaust (better as in better not 'halfords rocketship funnel', the usual boy racer bits and bobs, but
without expecting miracles
Wasting your time with a better cam in a low compression engine, for £250 you could fit bike carbs.
What would I do in your position? You're keeping the van whatever but want more go on a budget, happy with petrol power so I'd be looking at
buying some ropey but sweet running RWD car for as little as you can find & transferring it's engine & box to the van. Being
careful/lucky with what you buy you could break/weigh the rest in & have the hardware for very little money leaving a bit to spend on getting it
all to work. If you could get something running on it's own management you'd have an improvement in power, refinement, economy &
reliability.
This would in effect be the same idea as fitting the Essex V6 as was planned but starting out with much more modern hardware.
You would need the fabrication gear/skills to make mounts, clutch gear linkage etc & somewhere to work on both it & the doner car. Also
you'd need the skills to do the electrical side of things* & need a bit research on what cars it's practical to isolate the engine
management as much as what would physically fit in the space but given a complete working car to take the wiring, modules etc from certainly possible.
My mate is a electrical/dairy engineer by trade & only automotive knowledge from him messing about with his own stuff but managed to remove all
the gear from a SAAB 9-3 to make it all run fine in another car on the SAAB management without much problem.
*Or a good mate who can!!
P.S. Good work on keeping the old thing on the road despite what anyone may tell you that should be done with it.
does the engine slant over ? , if so which way ?
quote:
Originally posted by scudderfish
So you've already mentally allocated a budget of at least £450. You must be able to get a decent Ford engine, gearbox and fit it for that.
Cheers Hillbilly racer. Its a tough job being a Bedford owner hahaha, you either love them or hate them and I personally love them, especially in
original panel van mode as mine is ( is not a camper conversion).
Volvosport, its not a slant... Its an Opel engine. The Vauxhall slants were in pre84 CFs.
quote:
Originally posted by timbedford
.......... I don't have the time, the space, the equipment or the skills to do the work myself (I realize that I shouldn't even be on this site but was drawn here by the mention of a cf2 with manta GTE engine in it), so I'm looking to commission whatever I do from someone who has the means to do it professionally.
). low compression petrol engine as standard - what about a small turbo? need to be careful around the carb but it could be the cheap solution your looking for with very few mods.
i had a beddy cf back in my bike racing days ,early 80s had a 2.2 ventura engine in i think , it flew, used to do a ton on motorway got there pretty sharp aswell , bloody horrible to drive though , dangerous aswell but alot better than austin j4 i had previous
Thanks for comments and the clarification about the nature of the site... Makes me feel a lot less like I'm somewhere I shouldn't be.
As for a turbo.... I did read somewhere that low comp engines are perfect for turbos, so I think I'll investigate that too.
Cheers all. Been reading past threads on here today. There's a LOT of knowledge on here. Glad it came up in my search.
has it got a getrag ?
if so , i think the saab motors will fit but dont quote me on that ...
should be quite respectable after that.........
It has a 5 speed ZF (Zahnradfabrick) box.
I think, for now, I'm going to stick a 32 36 on it, change the inlet and exhaust manifold gaskets (exhaust gasket blows and I would imagine the
inlet probably has a little bit of a leak by now), see if that makes much of a difference... If it feels like a slight improvement I'll venture
on with other toys... Better exhaust, better ignition, maybe a turbo (that would be quite interesting) etc etc, and if not I'll consider buying a
90's petrol rwd manual vauxhall with at least 2.0litres, and switching the innards over.
Still interested to know if Nat @ retro power still has the manta engined cf though. Might call them tomorrow.
quote:
Originally posted by timbedford
if not I'll consider buying a 90's petrol rwd manual vauxhall with at least 2.0litres, and switching the innards over.
I had a CF2 years ago, it was a 2.3 litre with a 5 speed box, I loved it.
Used to go pretty well but it was only used to lug fishing gear about occasionally so it never had much weight in it.
If your gearbox is the same, mine had reverse where 1st would normally be & 1st gear was back where 2nd would normally be. I had some interesting
traffic light starts before i finally got used to it 
I remember my dad adjusting the carb fromthe passenger seat whilst i drove it, really handy having most of the engine inbetween the front seats
Good luck with it & keep us all posted on the progress.
Nice one Andy. When I first got my van it was in a fairly bad way. It had been left to rot by an elderly bloke who couldn't get about anymore.
The engine cowl was in the back and it had to be driven with the engine exposed, which was pretty noisy and stank too because the front pipe was
rotten through. It didn't have a choke cable properly installed and was in dire need of a carb rebuild. To stop the van conking out when
decelerating it was necessary to yank on a piece of wire that opened the choke, then let it go again when it was time to pull off. If I was going to
be sat in traffic I had to pull and clip the wire to the gear stick via a heavy duty butterfly clip.
It was more like a horse than a van in some respects.
This also answers the earlier question about why a TDCI is too noisy.. The engine is in the cab and the sound deadening is minimal. A few people in
the bedfore owenrs club put TDCIs in. Then found they couldn't hear anything for a week after driving them. There's now a huge amount you
can do in a bedford to tackle that.
Mine runs sweet now except for the flatness above 50mph. Below 50 its actually pretty decent for what it is. As long as nobody else wants to pull away
quickly from the lights, I can convince myself I've just roared off like a beast, even if a nissan micra overtakes me a few seconds later hahaha,
and being rwd it can still bring a smile on wet/icy roundabouts.
The safe and legal way to speed: feels like 90mph, is actually 30mph.
hi ,
if you want more power ; you've got many way :
_ make a swapp ( BMW /ROVER / Opel Ecotec / ..... ) but is it legal in your land ?? ( here in France , it ( sadly) isn't )
_make a swapp from a bigger Opel CIH engine ( Senator-Reckord 2.2 / Frontera-Omega 2.4 ) , same Bore as your 2.0 , but more Stroke
( 77.5 and 85 mm versus 69.8 )
_you can also keep your engine and 'tune' it
quote:
I am contemplating putting a new 32 36 weber on
quote:
a low compression engine
quote:
i think you may struggle to find a manta GTE engine for decent money these days,
yes , they're becoming rare !
but what about an ecotec? way cheaper, tuning parts are available from SBD, Omega gearbox will fit straight up too
Right , or the Getrag 240 from the 1800 SOHC !
and still the same block!
Not at all , Cih are différent of SOHC/DOHC !
The CF engine was always a pile of poo which just did the job. I worked on these for years and although the block is the same the engine that went in
the ViVa etc was different in many ways.
Another issue with engine swapping is the CF has a massivly heavy flywheel to keep the little engine going, even the petrol versions had then.
My advice would be to start saving and then when you have enough swap in a Rover V8 from a range rover with a manual box, you will also need a better
back axle as they are low geared and drink petrol.
The V6 was a popular swap and did'nt need too much cutting to get in but is under powered to todays engines standard.
@ Spaximus ;
you're mistaking !
you tall about Vauxhall engine ; but he has an Opel engine ( CIH 2.0 N )
man can have either Vauxhall or Opel engine on the Bedford ( i'm not sure i write correctelly )
Sylvain
Francois, thanks for those links about the pistons. I will check those out.
My van...
As an update (its been a while since I started this thread), I went ahead and fitted a 32/36 even though most people I spoke to (both online and in
oily workshops) seemed to think it would be a waste of money.
I went ahead anyway and it wasn't an easy fit. Weber claimed it would bolt straight on but in reality it had to be bodged a wee bit as it
didn't fit even with the supplied adaptor plate.
Got it on though, and I was immediately pleased that I had done so. When playing with such a tiny amount of power and an unambitious engine, every
little helps, and the amount of improvement from this carb was significant. Its still not a rocket ship, obviously, but where I could only hit 80 flat
out I can now do 92/93. I can get up long hills at 70mph without losing speed on the way up, and the acceleration is greatly improved at various
points on the way to the top.
As an added bonus, the carb adds a nice burbling/grumbling note to the sound of acceleration with the suck of the air filter on top of that. Its a
small thing, but its nice to hear it when I press the pedal.
Downsides are that it obviously uses more fuel and it also takes a few minutes to get going from cold. It still starts first time, but for the first
couple of minutes I need the choke out plus I have to keep the accelerator pressed lightly down or it cuts out. Can be tricky reversing out of car
parks or if I get to a junction immediately after starting. It doesn't seem to help if I sit still with the revs up for a few minutes. It seems
to need to get moving. After a couple of minutes it will idle perfectly without cutting out. These are very small prices to pay. I'm really glad
spent the money, and also enthused to try something else now... maybe a garret; might look into a megajolt or similar, and pistons as per
Francois' suggestion and/or cam.
I'm not looking to get silly performance. I'm not sufficiently moneyed to be upgrading the brakes and handling to cope with crazy speeds, so
I don't want to be driving a van that cannot cope with high speed.
A bit more spirit on acceleration is all I'm going to aim for. My van can't really cope with much more than 90mph top end.
Cheers for all your advice in this thread.
Made enquiries at a local race tuning shop in Sussex area about fitting a turbo. £3000.00 and upwards for the whole job.
Van is worth about £300.00 and downwards...
I believe the phrase is "LOL"
Some of these tuning places seem to think anyone wanting more performance must be a millionaire.
Everything you do should be incremental and reflect value for money.
£ 3000 turbo probably no.
A better Vauxhall engine that will bolt up to the existing bellhousing and would still let you use the Weber you have bought would probably be the
next move.
I must admit I was quite surprised. I knew I'd need a bit of pipework... a better exhaust manifold, but I'd naively looked at the cost of
Garrett turbos on ebay (few hundred squids) and imagined I'd be able to get a Heath Robinson bodge job done to fit a second hand / recon turbo
suitable for a 2.0 8v engine onto my old girl.
That's an indication of my ignorance and naivety I guess. I imagined the whole lot could be done for a grand or so.
How wrong I was!
Engine swap is out of the question... The distress and loss of vital funds when I attempted that this time last year and got ripped off by a scoundrel
means my missus will start swining the frying pans if I so much as mention it.
Im not saying that £3k is a reasonable cost but bear in mind that the management if using one of the known brands ie Omex, DTA, Emerald etc could suck up north of £800 of that cost before you even start looking at manifolds turbos etc and of course if someone else is doing the work then the labour will be at least half of that i would think. Have to agree with previous post, a zetec and a type 9, cheap and tried and tested.
I was thinking more straight swap for the Carlton/ Omega version of that engine for £ 200 to £ 300 from a breaker or Ebay seller. The van versions
were always low compression so it will be a cheap and easy win for the next stage and will let you build on what you have.
The door is then open for some porting and polishing of the head, a fast road camshaft and possibly megajolt ignition for the next incremental stage.
The CF II with the Ascona engine as use in the Opel Blitz version was better than the dreadful Vauxhall Slant 4 but it didn't make the
rest of the van any better In the 1950s and early 1960s Bedford held a big share of the van market with good but rust prone CA , the CF did immense
damage to the Bedford brand and allowed Ford to come from almost no where to completer sector dominance the brilliant piggy Transit. I have
driven many of these vans, even when new CF handling wasn't good I could be kind and say the handling didn't inspire confidence but in
truth even driving a straight line demanded constant steering correction.
The only major market that remained for the CF was for specialist body conversions, ice cream vans, mobile shops, motor homes and ambulances, for
the sole reason the CF chassis cab unit undercut the equivalent Transits by a large margin.
http://www.retropower.co.uk/projects_v8_cf_van.htm
What a thoroughly excellent job theyve made of that retropower CF. Seeing that and reading this has made me think of taking on a van project next
Indeed, its a beauty isn't it. I have inquired with retropower about doing mine, but rightfully that's a lot of money and they won't do
things by half measures.
Britishtrident sounds like you had some bad experiences with CFs. Its no aston martin i grant you, but mine will cheerfully hold a straight line of
its own accord. I often drop a brick on the pedal and jump in the back to brew up a cuppa and I've hardly ever crashed.
It would be a boring old world if we all liked the same thing though. I'm going to go and find a thread about Vauxhall zafiras now to tell the
owners what I think of them.
quote:
Originally posted by Not Anumber
I was thinking more straight swap for the Carlton/ Omega version of that engine for £ 200 to £ 300 from a breaker or Ebay seller. The van versions were always low compression so it will be a cheap and easy win for the next stage and will let you build on what you have.
The door is then open for some porting and polishing of the head, a fast road camshaft and possibly megajolt ignition for the next incremental stage.
Just caught up with this thread. I worked on the CF s when they were new and had to be the worst truck ever. They were fitted with all kind of engines and not one seemed to do the job. Perkins 4.108 great in a boat, not a Bedford. Opelless diesel, even worse, setting the FIP up was a nightmare and needed two men or at least a boy to lay underneath to rotate the crank whilst you set the pump up with the dial gauge. a variety of petrol engine,I think maybe the 2.2 was the best. For modern day running go for something like a 2 litre Black Top Zetec. Had a look in one of my cupboards and I still have the original pump adaptors and dial gauges in a wooden box.....