v10
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 posted on 13/12/10 at 09:43 AM |
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bec vs cec
Hi guys, I know theres lots of threads here on this subject but few actually give a clear idea of the performance difference.
I'm currently in the market for a 7 style car and the only thing I can't decide on is car or bike engined! My main use will be track days
(proly 90% of use) and I'll proly be 2 up half the time. Now I know the bec will be faster to 100 from what I've read here but how much
faster ? are we talking a second or 3-4 seconds ? If I was going for car engine it would proly be the 4age engine. So how would this compare to The
likes of a blade or r1 powered car ?
I live in Ireland so I reckon it would be difficult enough to find someone to work on a bec but then I do like the idea of a sequential box 
Any advise before I buy ?
Cheers.
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RazMan
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| posted on 13/12/10 at 09:45 AM |
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oooo 'eck you've done it now, where's me popcorn? 
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
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jossey
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| posted on 13/12/10 at 09:53 AM |
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and in the BLUE corner.......
DING DING ROUND 1
ps BEC lol
dave
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hobbsy
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| posted on 13/12/10 at 09:56 AM |
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If its a stock 4AGE then the BEC should be a fair bit quicker - depends how light you make the car. Can't easily put any accurate numbers on it
though!
If you look at quarter mile times an R1 BEC should do it in low 13's or high 12's depending on tyres and gearing. I don't have any
times for a 4AGE engined car but I'm sure someone will. I doubt its going to be more than a second in the quarter mile. If you pick a
particular speed like 0 to 60 or 0 to 100 then you may see a fair advantage with the BEC as often they can hit 60 in first or 100 in third, again
depends on gearing.
If you're mostly doing track work then the revs and sequential box of the BEC should be favourable, much like if you'd said mostly road
use or touring someone would probably recommend a CEC for lower cruise RPM and having reverse as standard 
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marcjagman
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| posted on 13/12/10 at 10:16 AM |
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Aren't CEC better on fuel too?
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hobbsy
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| posted on 13/12/10 at 10:20 AM |
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I don't know for sure.
However my R1 Fury can do mid 30's if you keep the speed (and therefore revs) down.
My mate with a 2.0 XE engined Westie on twin 45's gets 22mpg most of the time...
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SPYDER
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| posted on 13/12/10 at 10:48 AM |
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Horses for courses as far as I am concerned.
My roadgoing Spyder Silverstone kitcar has a 2 litre 16V 160hp engine.
Our trackday Phoenix has a 140 odd hp 929 'blade engine.
Both are perfectly suited to their environment.
I've never measured the performance of either but I suspect the Phoenix to be quicker through the gears.
Carrying a passenger reduces the BEC's advantage though.
The Phoenix, however, feels LOADS quicker and will also outcorner and outbrake the Spyder due to it's lightness advantage.
12,000 revs and paddle shift sequential gear changes. Addictive. Hypnotic.
So, I would say, given 90% trackday use, Buy a BEC.
There. I've said it.
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l0rd
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| posted on 13/12/10 at 10:52 AM |
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CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC
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marcjagman
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| posted on 13/12/10 at 10:53 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by l0rd
CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC CEC
So which is it for you then?
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hughpinder
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| posted on 13/12/10 at 11:02 AM |
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The other advantageof the lower weight of a BEC is that you can go round corners faster and stop faster too. Sequential changes are probably quicker
as well.
However, you say you'll be 2 up, in which case the second person will take away your weight advantage compared to a single person in the same
sort of car. (I dont know about all engines, but a 2.0 duratec with standard gearbox/clutch/starter/alternator etc weighs about 165kg. A bike engine
is about 80 to 85. If you engineer the whole of the rest of the car the same (apart for engine and box) you will end up about 80kg lighter. If you go
on the road you will need reverse, and this will add another chunk of cost and eat away a few kg of weight advantage.
2 people weight (say) 150kg, so your 'all up' weight of the BEC will be about 600kg, of the CEC 680kg.
I would expect the CEC to be much more durable in the engine/gearbox area, whereas the BEC is going to be limited in this respect.
Having said all that people with BECs don't seem to be complaining about silly failure rates.
Just a few more things to think about
Regards
Hugh
ETA SPYDER seems to have made most of the same points while I was thinking....
[Edited on 13/12/10 by hughpinder]
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hobbsy
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| posted on 13/12/10 at 11:06 AM |
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A blade is only about 62Kg and an R1 isn't much more. 80 to 85kg is either a blackbird or a Busa kind of weight (both could do with a dry
sump). So maybe a 100Kg weight advantage in the engine/gearbox combo. Then you can maybe save a bit more by going for solid rather than vented disks
but we're talking a kg or two tops.
Its nice being able to pick up the complete engine and gearbox by yourself - certainly with the Blade / R1 but a Blackbird is a bit of a back
strainer!
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mookaloid
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| posted on 13/12/10 at 11:53 AM |
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The easy answer to your question is that a BEC will generally be quicker round a track than the 4AGE in the same car.
After that the BEC vs CEC question depends on which engines you want to compare.....
e.g. A 300 BHP duratec in a well set up car is hard to beat unless you have a Haybusa turbo etc etc. the real question is how far/fast do you want to
go?
"That thing you're thinking - it wont be that."
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carpmart
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| posted on 13/12/10 at 12:01 PM |
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A deliberatley provocative post if ever I saw one! :]
You only live once - make the most of it!
Radical Clubsport, Kwaker motor
'94 MX5 MK1, 1.8
F10 M5 - 600bhp Daily Hack
Range Rover Sport - Wife's Car
Mercedes A class - Son's Car
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twybrow
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| posted on 13/12/10 at 12:13 PM |
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Get a ride in both and decide for yourself... This is not a decision I would be ahppy to make based upon others peoples views.. It is so subjective,
you will always recieve a 50/50 answer...
For my money, for what you want, a BEC with a bigger lump would be good (ZX12, Busa, ZX14, Blackbird etc).... But dont decide until you actually know
what they are like to be in.
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kj
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| posted on 13/12/10 at 12:19 PM |
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Pinto Power
See this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWkNAQW9fXc
Think about it, think about it again and then do it.
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A1
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| posted on 13/12/10 at 12:32 PM |
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that vids been removed...
bec every time in a seveny thing!
as a performance comparison, i left a tuned r33 skyline easily behind me pretty easily
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v10
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| posted on 13/12/10 at 12:33 PM |
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Thanks for the responses. I know that most of these topics create a bit of bec/cec rivalry and that wasnt my intention (really). My problem is that
here in Ireland these cars are not nearly as common as the UK and getting to try them out first would be very difficult. I have a bike (CBR1000)
myself so I do have a good idea how they perform on 2 wheels anyway. My concern is the 2 up performance, I reckon the cec would suffer a lot less with
2 up vs the bec with the extra torque they should have.
Ive watched a ton of youtube videos of these cars on track days to give me an idea of performance and still every day I change my mind.
TBH if I thought that the cec was only a small bit slower I proly go with it for relibility sake and the ease of finding someone willing to work on
it.
decisions decisions .. I thought this would be easier !
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hobbsy
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| posted on 13/12/10 at 12:40 PM |
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How handy are you with the spanners?
Basic servicing is no more difficult with a BEC...
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Humbug
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| posted on 13/12/10 at 02:23 PM |
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Given you're from Ireland, shouldn't it be FEC FEC FEC FEC FEC FEC FEC FEC FEC FEC
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Heather
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| posted on 13/12/10 at 03:01 PM |
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Hi
For a direct comparison of the same car with a ce and be, log onto the 750mc website and check out Gary Goodyears times for last year in the Kitcar
championship. He was running a RAW Fulcrum with high spec'd small port 4age engine.
Then check this years times when he moved to RGB and ran the same car with a ZX12.
Should give you some kind of idea on performance.
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scudderfish
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| posted on 13/12/10 at 03:08 PM |
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Stick a V8 in it
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adithorp
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| posted on 13/12/10 at 03:52 PM |
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The difference with a BEC when 2 up is just more noticable. To get the same power/weight with a 4pot CEC your going to need something with a fair bit
of work done to it. My R1 will certainly match a 4age even 2up with luggage. It doesn't feel slow with a passenger... it just feels balistic
when they get out!
How soon are you looking to get a car (sounds like you're looking at built cars)? You could always come over to Stoeleigh show in May and beg a
few rides.
"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire
http://jpsc.org.uk/forum/
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Ivan
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| posted on 13/12/10 at 04:17 PM |
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Just to put my bit in - on a track day does it really matter which is quicker? Especially when the difference is unlikely to be more than a second or
five when two up. And believe me both will frighten your passenger.
Surely what matters is reliability and repair-ability - especially if as you say BEC skills are problematical where you live. In my very limited
experience what really matters is driving quickly near the limit of your ability - and that both BEC and CEC will give you in bucketloads.
And, in my opinion, the CEC will be much easier on the wallet in the long term and have much less down time and give the local mechs much less
income.
Also - whichever you get you will soon want more and then the question is which do you feel more confident about upgrading.
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v10
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| posted on 13/12/10 at 04:31 PM |
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cheers lads, some good advice in here .. leaning towards cec at the moment, think it just might suit my needs better for now. How are the 2.0
pinto's in comparison to the 4age ?.. the pintos seem far more common by the looks of things.
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Benzo
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| posted on 13/12/10 at 05:23 PM |
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Where abouts in Ireland are you, my mate has a 4age stuart Taylor and i have a westfield megablade i could show you around, im right up north in Co.
Londonderry.
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