Philippe
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| posted on 4/1/06 at 12:28 PM |
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GM flat 6 air cooled Corvair in a Locost
This was posted by myself in LocostUSA this morning.
I have considered several power trains for my Locost project and I have not yet made up my mind. The selection process seems to be a mix of logical
and emotional arguments with oneself and in the process of arguing with me and others I have looked at the VW Beetle (air cooled), a Ford 260, 289 or
302 V8 and now I am investigating the flat 6 Corvair. And I like what I read!
What I like about the Corvair is this:
1- flat six= lower center of gravity for the locost
2-Air cooled engine is lighter. 300lbs for a six cylinder ain't bad
3-can produce 140 HP @4400rpm stock, 150HP @ 5000rpm (stock), 150 to 200HP with a turbo (still stock). In performance aftermarket ...the sky is the
limit
4-the "sky" is actually the main positive argument for these engines. As a former commercial pilot myself I like the predictability of a
big bore air cooled mill. The Corvair engine has a large audience among general aviation pilots and this drives its market today.
5-The engine (and the GM cars) still enjoy an extensive and well organized fan network in the World and in particular in North America...so the
Corvair engine may not be as exotic for us (on the american continent)as it may look.
What some of you may have against the Corvair engine:
1-the width of the Locost may have to be enlarged considerably to be able to lodge this engine in the little car ( lateral access to the heads for
maintenance will make this point even more problematic)
2- Because the Corvair is a rear driving powerplant, the engine will have to be mated to a non stock transmission. This can be done . One can even get
the Corvair to fire in the opposite direction if needed. One could also make the Corvair to work as a mid engine, of course.
Now..Your turn.......
_________________
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Hellfire
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| posted on 4/1/06 at 12:32 PM |
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Sounds complicated. Ever considered a bike engine..............
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mookaloid
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| posted on 4/1/06 at 12:33 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Hellfire
Sounds complicated. Ever considered a bike engine..............
Soooooooo predictable
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smart51
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| posted on 4/1/06 at 12:39 PM |
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A flat 6 could have a very low height (I don't know the corvair engine). It will have excelent C of G and so will be ideal for a locost.
Aircooled. Are you confident about getting enough air in?
300 lbs = 136kg is about the same as a pinto engine so no problem there
Cylinder head maintenance. Make the side panels removable. Very good access then. You could fix the side panels as far as the footwell and then
have removable panels to the front wheels.
Is a standard locost wide enough for a wide engine? No? look at McSorley's plans for a 4" wider chassis. Is has an extra 4" right
the way down the middle. You can even buy 4" wider bodywork off the shelf (here in the UK)
Gearboxes might be a problem. A Ford type 9 box has a removable bell housing. If you get stuck, it might be possible to have a custom bell housing
fabricated.
[Edited on 4-1-2006 by smart51]
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phelpsa
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| posted on 4/1/06 at 02:34 PM |
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Depending exactly how wide the engine is I doubt 4 inches will be enough myself. When someone on here was considering a scooby engine he was looking
at 10-12 inches!
Adam
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britishtrident
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| posted on 4/1/06 at 03:27 PM |
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Much as I like Chevy engines and had a high opinnion of the later Corvair it is really a bit of a non starter, just too many problems building a
chassis around it and it lacks power standard engines were speced between 80 and 110 US horse power which I think will also need to cover the power
needed to run the super sized cooling fan -- in a prop driven aircraft the cooling fan comes free !
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Philippe
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| posted on 4/1/06 at 03:30 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by smart51
A flat 6 could have a very low height (I don't know the corvair engine). It will have excelent C of G and so will be ideal for a locost.
Aircooled. Are you confident about getting enough air in?
R-Thanks for the reply.
If I decide to work with this engine, I expect to do some redesigning (which I enjoy). I would start with a broader chassis (McSorley's 7-442
for instance). I would make access hatches on each side of the bonnet to be able to access the heads (as suggested here). I would fabricate my own
forced air shrowd out of sheet aluminium. As for the body, I was planning to manufacture my own anyway, so there will be no added complication.
Take care.
Philippe.
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Philippe
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| posted on 4/1/06 at 03:46 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Hellfire
Sounds complicated. Ever considered a bike engine..............
R-Thanks for your reply.
There is nothing complicated in my suggestion. I would find fitting a bike motor in a Locost more convoluted than a 6 cyl Corvair. In any case I
don't like the idea of a bike engine in a car. In all due respect, bikes don't produce enough torque, have to rev too high, don't
have a reverse gear...and last but not least, where I live (Ontario-Canada) MoT does not allow cross breeding between species: either your are a car
or you are a bike. If you build a car with a bike engine you are a bike or cycle car, like a three wheeler.
No offence!
I like your yellow MK lotus by the way.
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Philippe
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| posted on 4/1/06 at 03:58 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
Much as I like Chevy engines and had a high opinnion of the later Corvair it is really a bit of a non starter, just too many problems building a
chassis around it
R- I am going to build my own chassis anyway so it does not matter how I build it. I may follow McSorley's 7-442 dimensions
...and it lacks power standard engines were speced between 80 and 110 US horse power which I think will also need to cover the power needed to run
the super sized cooling fan -- in a prop driven aircraft the cooling fan comes free !
R-I would get a late Corvair 1965-1969 engine, stock 150HP atmospheric or stock turbo charged 200HP. Not so bad to move a car which will be under
1500lbs. The cooling fan does not cost as much power as you suggest, if it did Porsches would never have seen the light of day..
Take care.
Philippe.
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akumabito
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| posted on 4/1/06 at 05:02 PM |
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Wow.. that Corvair engine is soooo sexy looking! Hahah, I'm just a sucker for good-looking engines. Would it be allowed to have the cilinder
heads sticking out the sides? I think that would look sortof cool.. how expensive are those engines though? I guess airplane engines cost a LOT...
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Hellfire
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| posted on 4/1/06 at 05:18 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Philippe
quote:
Originally posted by Hellfire
Sounds complicated. Ever considered a bike engine..............
R-Thanks for your reply.
There is nothing complicated in my suggestion. I would find fitting a bike motor in a Locost more convoluted than a 6 cyl Corvair. In any case I
don't like the idea of a bike engine in a car. In all due respect, bikes don't produce enough torque, have to rev too high, don't
have a reverse gear...and last but not least, where I live (Ontario-Canada) MoT does not allow cross breeding between species: either your are a car
or you are a bike. If you build a car with a bike engine you are a bike or cycle car, like a three wheeler.
No offence!
I like your yellow MK lotus by the way.
No offence taken - each to his own  Interesting information about the engines and Ontario's regulations though.
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Philippe
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| posted on 4/1/06 at 06:00 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by akumabito
Wow.. that Corvair engine is soooo sexy looking! Hahah, I'm just a sucker for good-looking engines. Would it be allowed to have the cilinder
heads sticking out the sides? I think that would look sortof cool.. how expensive are those engines though? I guess airplane engines cost a LOT...
R-Glad you like the idea. I am at the early stage of exploring this option. I would not mind letting the cylinders stick out of the hood myself. The
price of the engine...I don't know yet. Considering that 1.8 million Corvairs were built between 1960 and 1969 and that there has not been a kit
car frenzie around them, I guess that the best way would be to pick one up on a scrap yard, open it up. Change any moving part, give it ported heads
and better carbs...or have all that done by a shop. When I find out I will let you know.By the way I like the cars that you have designed. Do you
have a web site?
Philippe.
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Philippe
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| posted on 4/1/06 at 06:22 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by akumabito
Would it be allowed to have the cilinder heads sticking out the sides? I think that would look sortof cool..
R-I believe that the total width of the Corvair 6 cyl is the same as the VW boxer's 29 1/2". No sticking out of the hood would therefore
be necessary. Sorry to disappoint you.
....how expensive are those engines though? I guess airplane engines cost a LOT...
R-No they don't. I found a guy who said on his website that a stock engine can be entirely rebuilt for 2000-2500$. All moving parts new. A high
performance engine would probably cost more. The two fraternities interested in the engine per se are: airplanes, and dune buggies. Corvair cars
collectors are also a good source.
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Volvorsport
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| posted on 4/1/06 at 07:16 PM |
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so a porsche engine hasnt appealed ?
granted they are worth a bit more - but can be tuned extensively .
i think the project is more suited to mid engined
otherwise an air cooled bike engine would have a better specific output .
of course you wont have the six cylinder noise !!!
www.dbsmotorsport.co.uk
getting dirty under a bus
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physician
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| posted on 4/1/06 at 08:55 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Philippe
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
Much as I like Chevy engines and had a high opinnion of the later Corvair it is really a bit of a non starter, just too many problems building a
chassis around it
R- I am going to build my own chassis anyway so it does not matter how I build it. I may follow McSorley's 7-442 dimensions
...and it lacks power standard engines were speced between 80 and 110 US horse power which I think will also need to cover the power needed to run
the super sized cooling fan -- in a prop driven aircraft the cooling fan comes free !
R-I would get a late Corvair 1965-1969 engine, stock 150HP atmospheric or stock turbo charged 200HP. Not so bad to move a car which will be under
1500lbs. The cooling fan does not cost as much power as you suggest, if it did Porsches would never have seen the light of day..
Take care.
Philippe.
as far as i have search, here in quebec 4 wheel is a car 2-3 wheel is a bike...
there is a company in ontario building bike powered locost..... it is suposed to be street legal.. dont have more details..
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physician
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| posted on 4/1/06 at 08:59 PM |
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here it is they sell parts and kits it may help you in your build
http://www.deman-motorsport.com/
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Philippe
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| posted on 4/1/06 at 09:13 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Volvorsport
so a porsche engine hasnt appealed ?
granted they are worth a bit more - but can be tuned extensively .
R-I would love a Porsche engine but I know (even without researching the matter) that I could not afford a rebuilt one...be it a flat four or a flat
six. The Corvair is not a pure bred...just a Folks machine. That's why it is suited to the Locost.
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Philippe
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| posted on 4/1/06 at 09:30 PM |
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Physician wrote:
as far as i have search, here in quebec 4 wheel is a car 2-3 wheel is a bike...
there is a company in ontario building bike powered locost..... it is suposed to be street legal.. dont have more details..
R-I am not sure which of my posts you are reacting to? I was telling someone that in Ontario you could not register a 4 wheel kit vehicle as a car if
it has a motorcycle engine. This has to do with the so called "clean air regulations". Motorcycles do not have to live -up to strict
emission standards as cars. The way to register a Kit car in Ontario is to declare the VIN of the donor car as well as to document the process of
acquiring or building the components of the Kit car in a notarized affidavit. In my view the " kit car template" as MoT calls it rules out
the use of motorcycle parts. But if I am wrong I would like to know. It is quite possible that the firm you are refering to has gone a different
way. Firms can do that. They could have a new motorcycle engine type...tested for emissions and obtain a clearance to use it in a production car. I
believe that the process costs about 15,000$. My world is that of the backyard builder, I have to do things simply.
Salut.
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Philippe
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| posted on 4/1/06 at 09:43 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by physician
here it is they sell parts and kits it may help you in your build
http://www.deman-motorsport.com/
R-Thanks,
I went to the site in question. The fact that the Company separates "Bike powered" and "car powered" as two distinct kits may
be an indication that what I am saying is real. Did you read specifically that they are saying that the bike powered kit car could be licenced as a
car? I have spent a long time on the OHCV forum trying to understand how the Ontario MOT works (which is different, I am sure from Quebec's) and
I would be quite disappointed if at the end of the day I had mistaken such an important point. Mais l'erreur est humaine, n'est-ce pas?
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physician
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| posted on 5/1/06 at 03:24 AM |
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sweet you bring a tear to my eye.. i read french on the board!
there is canadian locost in vancouver to for parts and kit
i have rebuild accident car and it seems that ontario is easier than quebec.... don't really know much more.. from the site of the saaq(
assurance auto quebec) for to be registered, i will need it to be aproved from a saaq licenced ingenior, then i'll need correcte light, wiper
windshiel and defrost system... all in a pdf from the site. it's a province afair so it will certainly differ to you. you may be right for car
separation on the site, i havent contact them. i found 2 seven owner that have built there own in quebec and fully registered for years with toyota
4age power and another building from a bmw 318.. saying that he wont do it with that car another time..lol he will be ready to drive by the summer
according to him...
that's all i know. i havent startt building mine since i'm back to school to study mechanical engineering but i have start collectting
parts.. bike shocks, seats...
havent decide on engine since i wont buy a donor for now, may be going 3 wheels so i can register as a bike so easier..
there is some honda s2000 engine kit at 3-4K$ sometime fully legit... even a 2004 with 6000km a month ago.....
i like your idea of being different, but with 240 hp for 3-4k $.... i'm not sure i would do so.....
but of tou choose to go air cooled or boxerbyou may consider showing it with heads out of the body as someone have suggest, or in a morgan trike way..
may look great to adapt the concept.. in the vain of hoodless hotrod..
maybe a way.. if you wait a year i can do a concept on computer design
just an idea though....
morgan like
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physician
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| posted on 5/1/06 at 03:28 AM |
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ok i understand why not to go bike engine in ontario....
i dont know those corvaur engine well but since i saw a full car for 2K$.. it may be cheap. full of potential in a less than 1500 pound car...
[Edited on 5/1/06 by physician]
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Noodle
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| posted on 5/1/06 at 09:09 AM |
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Where would the human race be if all the cave men had sat around the fire sucking air through their teeth and saying "Nah - You don't want
to do it like that."
I salute you Sir.
Vive la difference! (With cars not women)
(Well, OK, women as well)
Neil.
Your sort make me sick
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Philippe
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| posted on 5/1/06 at 10:32 AM |
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If you are interested in bike powered vehicles, indeed three wheelers maybe the way to go. In Québec as well as in Ontario they can be registered as
bikes and the red tape is a bit simpler. Visit T-Rex (in Montreal) or look up three wheelers' lists, some are in Québec. Good luck.
Philippe.
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akumabito
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| posted on 5/1/06 at 02:24 PM |
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Well, for performance, as far as car engines go, I'd definately consider the S2000 engine, as it pretty much has twice the Hp, plus it revs lke
crazy, and it probably is lighter as well...
But as I said before, when it comes to originality and just plain sexy-engine-goodness you can't really beat a boxer engine... even the humble
Bettle engine can be made damn sexy looking with just a few modifications.. 
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