DarrenW
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| posted on 27/7/07 at 10:07 AM |
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Kids
Its only a little post but meant ever such a lot to me this morning. Took eldest daughter (5) for a mini blat this morning after getting the new car
seat. First time since the new laws came in. It was great and she loved it (even asked if she could build a car when she gets older - like 10 , id
love to do them an electric off road buggy of sorts).
Got back and the 2 yr old, who previously wouldnt even sit in the car on the drive, wanted a run out so i took her to the next street and back. Its so
nice when you can share your passion with them.
And the best news is they are both at grandparents tonight and if weather is OK tomorrow the wife wants to go for a drive out. Im well chuffed.
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graememk
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| posted on 27/7/07 at 10:18 AM |
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i think i'm really lucky as my bird hates the indy and wont get in it, so i get to go out in it when ever i like and drive as daft as i like
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vinny1275
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| posted on 27/7/07 at 10:49 AM |
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I'm going to have the opposite problem - wrestling the keys off her to get a drive in it!!
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Rek
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| posted on 27/7/07 at 10:51 AM |
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I managed to finish just in time to pick up my 11 year old from primary school on his last day. all his mates came and crowded round and sitting in it
saying "cool" etc... Im fortunate 11 year olds dont know about Duttons!!!!
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nick205
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| posted on 27/7/07 at 12:03 PM |
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Darren - can you post some pics of the booster seat you've got?
I'd be interested to see how it looks/fits into the seat.
My SWMBO has been out with me a couple of times, but doesn't really like it - particularly when I give it the full beans without warning her
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DarrenW
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| posted on 27/7/07 at 01:48 PM |
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No probs, here is seat on its own...
 
Rescued attachment 27072007150.jpg
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DarrenW
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| posted on 27/7/07 at 01:48 PM |
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And here it is in the seat...
 
Rescued attachment 27072007151.jpg
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brynhamlet
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| posted on 27/7/07 at 09:11 PM |
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How do we stand with Mr Plod with this. My daughter is a tall nearly four year old and whilst I've got a booster seat for the family car, my MK
has no windscreen or wind deflector and she would be better protected sitting lower without the booster seat. Whilst my car has yet to pass its SVA I
have had her fastened in with the standard four point harness and in my opinion she was more secure than when she was in her four point harness baby
seat
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nick205
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| posted on 28/7/07 at 10:31 PM |
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Cheers Darren - looks to be a good fit (and cheap too)
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DarrenW
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| posted on 30/7/07 at 09:38 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by brynhamlet
How do we stand with Mr Plod with this. My daughter is a tall nearly four year old and whilst I've got a booster seat for the family car, my MK
has no windscreen or wind deflector and she would be better protected sitting lower without the booster seat. Whilst my car has yet to pass its SVA I
have had her fastened in with the standard four point harness and in my opinion she was more secure than when she was in her four point harness baby
seat
I totally agree that a 4 point harness on its own should be secure enough but the DoT was adament that we must use a booster seat. I tried all ways to
get around it but to no avail. Hence searching for suitable booster that will fit.
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TangoMan
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| posted on 30/7/07 at 08:22 PM |
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That looks a good find Darren. It even matches my car.
Can you clarify your discussions with DOT as I thought that under 4's needed a child booster seat and a booster cushion was acceptable over 6
years old.
I would love to take my girl out for a drive and she is three in October. TBH £30 is not of any great concern but a court appearance and fine would be
a pain.
Oh!!! and getting her mum to agree might be a challenge.
Summer's here!!!!
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DarrenW
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| posted on 31/7/07 at 09:21 AM |
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You will probs lose the will to live going through this but here is the email exchange with DoT etc.
I am out of the office on leave from 12 March and will return on 19 March. Contact Terry Deere (terry.deere@dft.gsi.gov.uk or phone ext
2046) in my absence please.
Tim Norman
Road User Safety Division
Dept for Transport
9 March 2007
LONDON SW1P 4DR
13/10/06
>>> DarrenW 03/09/07 16:01 >>>
Many thanks again Tim,
You have clarified it exactly now and I will carry out a more thorough search of a suitable seat booster. The one I have has side 'wings',
ill have to try and locate one without. It's a shame the websites don't give the sizes! Thanks for the numbers, ill give them a try.
I appreciate your time and clarification.
Best regards and have a great weekend,
Darren.
________________________________
From: Tim Norman [mailto:Tim.Norman@dft.gsi.gov.uk]
Sent: 09 March 2007 14:08
To: Darren Wake
Subject: RE: Child Car seats
Darren Wake
Thanks for this. I understand exactly where you are coming from but these cars only have front seats and the legislation requires that all front
seated children under 135cm in height use the correct type-approved child seat for their weight. There are a few exceptions (see FAQ2) but they only
apply in the rear seat.
There are no exceptions for cars with full harnesses or narrow seats or no rear seats. Insurers are well aware of the legal requirements for carrying
children and would be unsympathetic should there be a claim and a child is not using the right child seat/booster.
Have you tried the specialists I mentioned - they may be able to help?
Sorry to confirm the disappointing news.
Tim Norman
9/3/07
>>> "Darren Wake" <DarrenW@wanxiang.co.uk> 9 March 2007 13:38:57 >>>
That was fast Tim, many thanks.
Do I basically read into this then if a booster seat conforming to the regs below cannot be commercially sourced then the law basically states
Children cannot be carried in these types of vehicle?
The following will probably read wrong, apologies in advance, its not supposed to. I have no desire to carry my child in the car in an unsafe manner
and FULLY support the new laws (hence I guess why im asking the questions).
8A states that if a classic car does not have seat belts fitted then children 3 years and over may travel in those vehicles unrestrained (it does say
in the rear but I don't have rear seats - what about classic 2 seater cars such as the original Lotus 7?)
11 talks about 2 or 3 point belt systems. It goes on to state that the booster cushion allows the belt to pass across the childs chest etc. As you may
know a 4 point harness does not cross across the chest in the same way that a 3 point diagonal restraint system does.
What iam basically challenging is that my car doesn't have a std passenger car restraint system so I cant see specific reference to that type of
system along with the use of a booster seat, and additionally the seats are only 370mm wide whereas the narrowest booster seat I have found is 390mm.
The booster will fit with some squeeze / minor distortion of the main seat but it does as a result apply a forward acting force to the booster.
Lifting the child with a booster in a vehicle fitted with 4 point harnesses does not look to serve any reasonable function as the belts still act in
exactly the same orientation as for an adult (as said previously this is not a feature that 3 point diagonal belts can share).
Sorry for sounding awkward but it would be a real shame if a 3 year + child could not share the experience that these cars can offer.
Cheers,
Darren Wake
________________________________
From: Tim Norman [mailto:Tim.Norman@dft.gsi.gov.uk]
Sent: 09 March 2007 12:11
To: Darren Wake
Subject: RE: Child Car seats
Darren Wake
Thanks for this. I responded to Norma Sheppard on 13 February - see below. something has not got through on the e-mail!
Tim Norman
9/3/07
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------
Norma Shepherd
Thanks for this. The law is clear that children up to 135 cms in height must use the correct child seat/booster with few exceptions. There is no
exception where 4 point harnesses are fitted. Full info on-line at http://www.thinkroadsafety.gov.uk/campaigns/childcarseats/childcarseats.
htm .
Child seats/boosters must be type-approved to the UN ECE 44.03 or later standard. Therefore a household cushion will not meet the legal
requirements.
If specialist advice about which child seat/booster might be able to fit in the bucket type seats fitted in this vehicle is not available locally,
then a phone call to Quickfit Safetybelt Services in North London (020 8204 0200) or the In-Car Safety Centre in Milton Keynes
(01908 220909) might be helpful. They may already have experience with this issue?
Hope this is helpful
Tim Norman
Road User Safety Division
Dept for Transport
LONDON SW1P 4DR
020 7944 2043
13/2/07
>>> "Darren Wake" <DarrenW@wanxiang.co.uk> 9 March 2007 12:08:41 >>>
Many thanks indeed for your response Norma. I appreciate your position and thank you highly for getting Tim involved in this. Its not what you would
class as an urgent issue so the timing is not a problem.
Hi Tim,
I hope you have had a chance to read through the emails. Apologies for the length of them and the detail enclosed. The closest high volume car to this
is a Caterham, maybe that will help to explain the vehicle type (basically a lotus 7 replica).
The issue seems to arise from the fact that these types of vehicles tend to be fitted with sports seats and 4 point harnesses as opposed to normal
passenger car seats and diagonal 3 point belts. If a std child booster seat would fit then there wouldn't be a problem at all as I
wouldn't hesitate to use one. However they don't tend to fit due to the narrow nature of seating in these cars - hence seeking some
guidance on the best course of action. It would appear that several Police forces have a generic problem in enforcing the law but as you can imagine I
have an interest to avoid such a discussion.
It may be the case that I have overlooked a statement on this on the government website relating to the law, if I have I would be grateful if you can
point me towards the relevant section.
I look forward to your valued advice.
Best Regards,
Darren Wake
________________________________
From: Norma Sheppard [mailto:Norma.Sheppard@darlington.gov.uk]
Sent: 09 March 2007 11:19
To: Darren Wake
Cc: tim.norman@dft.gsi.gov.uk
Subject: FW: Child Car seats
Good Morning Darren,
I am sorry I am not the appropriate expert on child car restraints to answer your unusual situation and was unable to help you with your enquiry.
However I did follow this up (see e-mail below). When I talked to the Department for Transport representative Tim Norman I thought he agreed to
contact you as he was interested in unusual sorts type cars himself. This is why I did not reply to you again.
I have since tried to contact Tim by phone but unfortunately have had no success.
I propose to cc Tim into this e-mail and ask you to contact him directly in the hope you will get someone of authority who can discuss the issues you
raise.
I have only had access to Tim through the DfT main switchboard telephone number which is 020 7944 8300.
Hopefully this will help.
Kindest regards,
Norma Sheppard
Road Safety Officer
Darlington Borough Council
Hopetown House
Brinkburn Road
Darlington
DL3 6ED
' 01325 388717
7 01325 388724
-----Original Message-----
From: Norma Sheppard
Sent: 13 February 2007 09:47
To: 'tim.norman@dft.gsi.gov.uk'
Subject: RE: Child Car seats
Good Morning Tim,
I will be ringing you today to ask for some help regarding child restraints.
I hope you will be the person to give advice regarding this enquiry from one of our residents. I have sent you the chain of correspondence and trust
you will be able to advise me on what response needs to be given to Mr wake.
I am sorry to trouble you but if you are not the correct person please would you be able to suggest the correct expert?
Many thanks,
Norma Sheppard
Road Safety Officer
Darlington Borough Council
Hopetown House
Brinkburn Road
Darlington
DL3 6ED
' 01325 388717
7 01325 388724
-----Original Message-----
From: Darren Wake [mailtoarrenW@wanxiang.co.uk]
Sent: 08 February 2007 13:44
To: Norma Sheppard
Subject: RE: Child Car seats
Many thanks indeed for such a fast response. I share your concern ref use of cushion which is principally the reason for seeking clarification.
The easiest option would be to not allow my daughter to ride in the car. To be honest it is a rare occurrence anyway but as she showed such
enthusiasm when I built the car it is so nice to be able to enjoy trips together however short. I have sat her in the car with no such padding etc and
whilst she is obviously lower down than myself it is surprising just how well the harnesses can hold her in place. The seats themselves are quite
narrow and have special side supports built in (similar to Rally style seats, not far off the std width support offered by a booster seat - hence why
the boosters wont fit).
The cushion idea came about after I thought about what a booster seat does. To me it seems to just lift the child to a position where by the seat
belt can run across the shoulder at an 'adult' height. As far as I know there is nothing to physically restrain the booster in position
other than by the child sitting on it. The big difference between a cushion and the booster is that the booster is more solid and generally has some
side support. So in that respect I generally agree with your comments. The big advantage in using a harness as opposed to a diagonal belt is that the
2 shoulder straps run horizontally over the shoulders down to the waist belts, this means there isn't any diagonal straps that need to be clear
of the neck in case of emergency. The waist belts then provide side restraints when correctly adjusted and tightened.
I guess the best answer I can hope for is that the law is designed for 'normal' cars that use 3 point diagonal belts systems, and hence
booster seats are not required where a 4 point harness is employed. (Wishful thinking maybe!). The law is clear regarding the type of seats under 3
years olds must use and these definitely cant be fitted in my car, so iam clear that the car is not for under 3's. It is just the 3 year plus
bit that im questioning.
I feel awful for bringing this question to you and hope you don't see it as being awkward.
Once again many thanks indeed for the fast response and I await your further advice.
Best Regards,
Darren.
________________________________
From: Norma Sheppard [mailto:Norma.Sheppard@darlington.gov.uk]
Sent: 08 February 2007 13:01
To: Darren Wake
Subject: RE: Child Car seats
Good Afternoon Darren,
Thank you for your e-mail. I'm pleased that you wish to keep your children safe by complying with the law regarding booster seats.
I suspect you may not have spotted any advice to suit your situation because the car is not an everyday family type vehicle.
Although I would not wish to give you definite advice at this stage, I would have thought that your suggestion of using a cushion in conjunction with
the four point harness for your four year old daughter would not be an acceptable way of complying with the law. I also believe that using a cushion
for any passenger would not be safe scientifically for any passenger. However as I am not an expert regarding specialist restraints I will try to get
a definitive answer for you and get back to you as soon as I am able.
Hope this is acceptable.
Kindest regards,
Norma Sheppard
Road Safety Officer
Darlington Borough Council
Hopetown House
Brinkburn Road
Darlington
DL3 6ED
' 01325 388717
7 01325 388724
-----Original Message-----
From: Darren Wake [mailtoarrenW@wanxiang.co.uk]
Sent: 08 February 2007 11:30
To: Norma Sheppard
Subject: Child Car seats
Hello Ms Sheppard,
I got your email address from www.childcarseats.org.uk <http://www.childcarseats.org.uk/> . I hope you don't mind me contacting you like
this.
I was hoping you could clarify something for me. I have
2 cars. One is a BMW 3 series and I have no problem applying the new rules relating to child car seats, indeed we have even been able to purchase a
second booster cushion inexpensively for when we collect our friends child from school etc.
My concern comes from my second car. It is a small 2 seater open topped sports car. It is fitted with bucket style seats and
4 point harnesses as opposed to a standard cars 3 point inertia reel seat belt. Unfortunately booster seats dont fit the seat due to its design. The
harness is the type that has one strap over each shoulder and a further 2 straps securing the waist (similar to what racing drivers would use). Before
the law came into effect I would place a soft cushion onto the seat (both comfort and to increase height slightly) and then adjust the harness such
that my 4 year old daughter is securely fastened in place. Is this allowable under the new law? The harnesses stop any frontal or sideways movement
due to their design and operation, the idea of the cushion is therefore to bring top of childs shoulders to the height of the upper straps. What is
unclear is if this soft cushion (pillow etc) is allowable or if a formally tested and approved booster has to be used (none of which fit the vehicle
unfortunately).
I did read some months ago that the law applied to vehicles fitted with 3 point inertia style seat belts but after searching again iam unable to
find this comment.
I have attached a similar picture of my car so you can see the seat design and hopefully the harnesses (you can see the 2 shoulder straps coming
through the seat slots). These harnesses do not have an inertia reel and are secured by 4 rigid points on the vehicles chassis. As the car has been
subjected to the VOSA SVA test they have been approved as road legal.
The reason for contacting you for clarification is not only for my piece of mind but also as a member of National and regional car clubs it is clear
that there are several motoring enthusiasts like myself who have a strong desire to comply with the law and protect our Children but are unclear as to
how best apply this law in relation to our types of vehicle.
Many thanks in anticipation of your advice,
Regards,
Darren Wake
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TangoMan
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| posted on 31/7/07 at 06:44 PM |
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Bloody hell..... I feel like I have just run a marathon!!
You obviously have too much time on your hands.. Well done that man.
Shame they didn't come up with a definitive answer. I will just source a booster seat and wait until my girl is three. Then I reckon it is worth
challenging the average bobby if he takes issue.
Summer's here!!!!
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