I've just gone and bought a Sylva Phoenix with a 1.6 Crossflow engine, which will quite possibly turn out to be one of the most stupid decisions ever, as I know next to nothing about the internal workings of a car!

The car has been not doing very much at all for the last year, and so almost certainly needs a bit of cleaning and tuning and stuff (I presume), but I just don't know where to start. I'm finding it a bit awkward (or impossible, at times!) to start it, and that may be down to bits needing cleaning or replacing, or possibly just my ineptness, having only had cars that would start nicely beforehand. Once it's going, it seems to be pretty good, although I'm pretty sure it's not perfect.

Is there anyone around the Bath area who might be able to become my hero and point me in the right direction and possibly even give me a hand? Please?!!!

Thank you very much.

Sam

Well, for starters, it's a decent car with a good, basic, if old-fashioned engine. Good decisions so far!

The engine is a good one to learn on, as it's as sophisticated as Meccano. If you don't treat it too horribly, follow the basic rules (see Haynes manual for an Escort Mk2) it will serve you well.

Get some basic car mtce manuals from the library and see how you get on.

David

HI,

if the cars been stood a while, first things are, fresh petrol(it goes off after a while), new spark plugs, air filter, oil and filter change.

if that doesn't sort it out, maybe points, distibutor cap and HT Leads next.

HTH
Ray

Before I started building mine, I hadn't even changed a set of sparkplugs, now I'm on the home stretch. All you need is patience, and it will turn into one of your best decisions.

Mark

I'm sure it'll be fantastic once I get it running a bit smoother, but at the moment it's a little worrying having a car that I can't start sitting outside!

I've got the escort haynes manual that the previous owner had and gave to me, but it comes from a time when people had an idea of what they were doing to start with, and I don't!

Would the ford crossflow haynes manual be any more useful, or is it also targetted at people who know what they're doing?

quote:

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Would the ford crossflow haynes manual be any more useful, or is it also targetted at people who know what they're doing?

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Excellent choice of car.


Another excellent place to look is the
Sylva Chat List

Between the Sylva chat list and Locostbuilders there is enough accumulated knowledge to help you fix almost anything.

Sam,

There might well be a beginners car maintenance course (evening classes) at your local FE college. I know there's one at mine!

HTH,
James

I think I'm going to go on a search for some car maintenance books. At the moment I think that the main problem is just me, and not really having got the knack of starting it yet. Well, not being able to start it all right now!

Have a friend coming over later who knows a little more than me, so hopefully will get somewhere then. We shall see!

Here's how I start my X-flow from cold:

1. Ignition on
2. Choke out (amount according to weather!)
3. Two quick pushes on the accelerator pedal
4. Turn key to "start"

Push the choke back in as soon as the engine allows.

Different when the engine's hot - don't touch the choke or pedal, just crank it.

This only works when the engine's set up near-enough correct!

David

As I've been trying to start it and failing, admittedlt probably because I've been doing the wrong things, is there now something that I need to do to it before it will start properly by doing it the right way?

I've been looking through everything I can find, and had a few ideas, but don't really know what's necessary or advisable, or not. Would just leaving it for a few hours let it all settle back to the way it was?!

Sam

Sam,

Presumably the car has ran before. Did the last owner start it for you to hear or have you never heard it run.

assuming you have never heard it run;
1. Do some basic checks - does it have water in? Is oil up to the correct mark on dipstick (also say what colour the oil is and what it smells like).
2. How long do you suspect the petrol has been left standing? If more than 6 months remove old fuel and replace (you can do this by removing a pipe from bottom of tank - usual rules about flammability apply and have suitable sized container ready to catch old fuel).
3. Remove a spark plug and take a look. healthy plugs are a light brown even colour. Black and oily is not so good - replace them if they look shitty.
4. Ensure battery is full of charge.
5. Now try and start it. It should turn over briskly.
6. If at any point you see fuel leaking or smell excessive fuel, stop and investigate. If the carb has not been used for a long time then the seals could be perished.

If it starts up then great. If not then we can do some more checks later. EG, checking the connections to coil and plugs are good. Checking for spark at coil and at plugs. Checking for fuel.

It would be nice to know what carb, what ignition system (if you take dizzy cap off, 2 spring clips, you might see some points inside, take a pic if you are not sure). in fact pics of engine bay, dizzy etc may help someone talk you through some advice.

Golden rule, be thorough and logical. Dont go ripping it apart. If it aint broke, dont fix it.

Have fun. Nice choice of car by the way.

Just a thought - take the distributor cover off and see if the rotor arm is fitted!

You wouldn't be the first (or last) to be caught by that one.

David

Thanks for all the suggestions.

The car does/did run fine. I drove it back home after picking it up. It has the right amount of oil (although could probably do with a change) and water. When I got it, the person I got it off managed to start it without too much difficulty, and that was with old petrol in. It's since had a new tank of petrol (which it ran fine on). That's why I'm inclined to think that it's as much something I'm doing, rather than something with the car, that's going wrong.

If I have just done something wrong and flooded the engine or something (don't really know what I'm talking about though), what would I have to do to get it back to a point where it could be started properly?

You dont say if you have a good toolkit or not. If not and are rushing out to buy some, can i suggest you dont buy the cheapest. It is tempting to get a 458 piece set from argos for 4.99 but here is a short story to help you make th echoice.

A few years back i used to get BMW serviced by good local independant. He had a lovely high spec Porsche 944 Turbo in. Engine in bits. I had to ask why. The owner decided to change spark plugs. He was a complete novice and had said toolkit above. He didnt realise the ball out of the Ratchet was missing........... you guessed it it ended up down spark plug hole. Not only did it wreck the cylinder head but also took out one of the block liners. Cost him over 2 grand to have engine repaired.

I have been using the Halfords professional range sockets and ratchets for years. they are very good. You dont have to buy Snap on but get the best you can afford.



Rotor arm check is good idea - that will be in the Haynes manual.

Just how much of a novice are you?

If you drove it home then that changes things a lot. Have you taken anything off or possibly dislodged some wires? probably not. There cant be much wrong with it.

Manual choke? If so dont forget to put the choke on, 2 blips of throttle, turn the key and it should be away. Push choke back in asap when engine will let you (itll die if you push in too soon). If you suspect you have flooded it just leave for a short while and retry. This is good time to check plugs.

Press the accelerator down SLOWLY to the floor. Make sure the choke is off, and crank. Expect the car to churn over for a few seconds, then start very suddenly (if it is flooded, that is).

Otherwise, take all the plugs out (remember which lead goes where!), disconnect the coil, and crank the engine. Expect a strong smell of petrol! Leave the plugs out for a while, then clean and check them, and replace. Put the leads back on and try again.

For future reference, I have always found that if it fails to start on the first or second attempt with the choke out, don't keep cranking as it will flood. Set the choke to off and try again - if it starts and then stops shortly after, then you may need a bit of choke.

David

I am very much a novice sadly! Will try every suggestion that comes in. Should have a friend of mine who knows a bit more than me coming over later to give me a hand, but I'm sure it'll be pretty simple in the end.

I took a couple of pictures which are now in my photo archive bit. Not sure if they show anything that might be useful to know or not. If not, I'll try again!

Thanks again for all your suggestions.

Sam

One thing that I did notice, which may or may not be relevant. The leads from the distributor cap to the spark plugs appear to be reversed to the diagram in the haynes manual I've got. I have taken off the cap, put don't think I've put it back the wrong way round, simply because the leads don't lie comfortably if you try and put it on the other way. I've seen a few mentions of problems being caused by it being 180 degrees wrong, but could this just be that it had been set up the other way round to start with?

quote:

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Originally posted by David Jenkins
Press the accelerator down SLOWLY to the floor. Make sure the choke is off, and crank. Expect the car to churn over for a few seconds, then start very suddenly (if it is flooded, that is).

Otherwise, take all the plugs out (remember which lead goes where!), disconnect the coil, and crank the engine. Expect a strong smell of petrol! Leave the plugs out for a while, then clean and check them, and replace. Put the leads back on and try again.

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Slow depress BEFORE cranking! Be ready to lift off if the engine does start. When you press the pedal normally, a bit of the carb pumps extra fuel into the airway (this is the reason for the "2 pumps and start" idea). By pushing down slowly the pump will hardly operate, if at all, and thus won't add extra fuel to the problem. By having your foot to the floor when trying to start will add a lot of air into the engine without enough "suck" to pull in much fuel, hopefully diluting the raw fuel in the cylinders and allowing it to start.

Thinking about it, taking the plugs out is probably the easiest way - you'll be able to see if it's flooded, as if that is the case then they'll be soaked in petrol.

If the plugs look a grotty then replacing them would be a good move - dry, clean new plugs make starting soooo much easier!

Finding the coil: go to the distributor. look at the center HT lead - the coil is at the other end. A metal cylinder with one big connector for the HT lead, plus a couple of tags lower down - pull one of these off to crank the engine without risk of ignition (put it in a safe place where it won't touch anything, or get tangled in moving bits.

David

P.S. You're right - you do need to do some homework!

[Edited on 15/11/05 by David Jenkins]

Dont apologise for being a novice. As you say we all have to start somewhere. You have started in the right place with a desire to suss it out. I only asked so we can pitch our advice at the right level. No point in us telling you to check static timing if you are learning about coild and distributors.

Dizzy cap will only comfortably go on one way, there is a notch in the dizzy that locates with the cap. A tip for you - if you are unsure how to re-assemble after taking things apart, take a digi photo or make notes / sketches or mark the parts up BEFORE taking off.

It ran before and no doubt will run very soon. Dont dismantle too much if you are unsure how it should be. Start with the basics. Follow Davids advice on starting procedure first.

Dont forget also that flat batteries can seem to be turning engine over but may have insufficient current to make it spark. If in doubt charge it up or attach some jump leads.


My father always told me with old cars that if it was oK befor ethen look at ignition first and fuel later. Most faults on old systems tend to be spark related.


Coil - simple device that takes 12V in and gives 1000's volts out. Sends high voltage to the distributor.

Distributor - it is turned by the engine (hence why timing has to be right and yours cant be far away so dont worry about that for now). Centre wire is feed from coil. Rotor arm (just under the cap)turns and send high voltage pulse down each of the plug leads in turn to the spark plugs.

Spark Plugs - screwed into cylinder head. They are just a device with a gap. Voltage jumps across gap and the spark ignites the fuel / air mixture provided by the carb.

Ignition systems hate dirty contacts, old worn plugs, dizzy cap, rotor arms and points and flat/old batteries. It loves fresh clean full power connections.


I hope this helps so you can get you head around what you are looking at. Years ago i had a series of books that explained all of this stuff in very simple language. Id recommend either getting a mate who knows to show you or enrol in a course at college.


Dont be frightened to ask. I got first car at 15, 19 years ago, and have ran a few wrecks and did 4 year apprenticeship.

Best of luck. Let us jknow how you get on.


(another point - this section doesnt get a lot of views. Other sections (eg engine and transmission etc) might get more hits but may also overwhelm you with advice - your choice)

What he said!

Just a thought - disconnect just 1 lead to start with, and take the plug out. Try not to get muck down the hole!

take a good look at the business end of the plug. In an ideal world the metal bits at the tip should have a light brown coating - looks like biscuit. If the engine is flooded, the end will be black, wet and stinking of petrol.

If you do one lead/plug at a time, you won't put them back in the wrong place!

David

[Edited on 15/11/05 by David Jenkins]

Just went and had a go with the putting the accelerator to the floor and starting (with the help of jump leads, as the battery was getting tired), and it started but wasn't running right, and wouldn't rev at all. Could that be that one or more of the spark plugs isn't firing properly?

It's going in the right direction at least. Should have my friend with the spark plug tool thing turning up soon.

It sounds as if the plugs are dirty, I have had this with my car before, mainly when moving it in and out of the garage without getting the engine up to temperature. I found that if I heated the spark plug electrode with a blowlamp until red hot it cured the problem, or you could just fit a set of fresh plugs.
Paul

quote:

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Originally posted by samwilliams
Just went and had a go with the putting the accelerator to the floor and starting (with the help of jump leads, as the battery was getting tired), and it started but wasn't running right, and wouldn't rev at all. Could that be that one or more of the spark plugs isn't firing properly?

It's going in the right direction at least. Should have my friend with the spark plug tool thing turning up soon.

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With a bit of help managed to get it started and it's running as well as it was, which is pretty well! Definitely needs a bit of general sorting, and possibly a spark-plug change, but it's running again.

It was all my fault by flooding the engine. Hopefully now I'll manage to avoid it in the first place but, if I do do it again, I kind of know how to get round it. Which is always good.

Thanks for all the help. Hopefully the next question will be something less stupid!!

Sam

quote:

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Originally posted by David Jenkins
Here's how I start my X-flow from cold:

1. Ignition on
2. Choke out (amount according to weather!)
3. Two quick pushes on the accelerator pedal
4. Turn key to "start"

Push the choke back in as soon as the engine allows.

Different when the engine's hot - don't touch the choke or pedal, just crank it.

This only works when the engine's set up near-enough correct!

David

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Well done Sam.

As we said before there cant be much wrong with the car. Only do one thing at a time. Take note what you take off and replace in same way.

From description it sounds lie new plugs might be required. After that just check connections are clean etc.

My car has 2.0 pinto. 38DGAS from 3.0 Capri that has been rejetted but NO choke. It starts on the button, takes a while to warm up but eventually settle nicely. All electrice are brand new (basic electronic set up). Just letting you know so you know all of these cars have there little gremlins. Trick is getting to know them.

Im guessing your car running experience is similar to mine. Fuel injaected cars with modern auto ignition systems. I have had to go back a few steps to suss out how carbs and basic ignition works.


Any pics???? Photo archive??? Watch yur gigicamera settings - thsi site only allows smaller photos (100Kb ish is good)
Cant wait to see your new pride and joy.

Youve passed the first test. Top job.

quote:

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Originally posted by DarrenW
Any pics???? Photo archive??? Watch yur gigicamera settings - thsi site only allows smaller photos (100Kb ish is good)
Cant wait to see your new pride and joy.

Youve passed the first test. Top job.

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