BenB
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| posted on 13/9/07 at 05:29 PM |
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McLaren F1 team punished
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6991147.stm
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jos
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| posted on 13/9/07 at 05:41 PM |
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that fine - ouch !!!!
.: Motorsport / motor racing circuit / track wall art Apex Traxs :.
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 13/9/07 at 05:52 PM |
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I shouldn't be surprised if the team pulls out of F1 - which would make the whole formula a farce.
What am I saying - it is a farce, and has been for years.
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theconrodkid
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| posted on 13/9/07 at 05:54 PM |
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vo surprise there then....i was reading an article a few days ago,most of the "jury" seem to be employed by ferrari in one way or
another,i just hope the wheels fall of their wagon and lewis wins the world championship
who cares who wins
pass the pork pies
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Surrey Dave
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| posted on 13/9/07 at 06:05 PM |
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Also
They lose a LOT of income next year because it relates to the previous year's constructors points..............................
I bet they can afford to pay that fine though!!!
They've been successful for a V.long time.
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BenB
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| posted on 13/9/07 at 06:33 PM |
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The fine is a bit of a shame.....
Thing is, does anyone actually care who the "offical" constructors champion is? Okay, its good bragging rights on adverts but who else
cares?
There'll just be a virtual league for next season showing who would have won if they were getting points. If the TV coverage doesn't show
it, it doesn't change things, it'll be on PlanetF1 etc.
If at the end of the season McLaren have more "virtual" points its kudos to them. Ferrari aren't really going to turn round and say
"well McLaren wiped the floor with us in 2008 but we won the constructors championship so there!!!"....
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tks
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| posted on 13/9/07 at 06:52 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by BenB
The fine is a bit of a shame.....
Thing is, does anyone actually care who the "offical" constructors champion is? Okay, its good bragging rights on adverts but who else
cares?
There'll just be a virtual league for next season showing who would have won if they were getting points. If the TV coverage doesn't show
it, it doesn't change things, it'll be on PlanetF1 etc.
If at the end of the season McLaren have more "virtual" points its kudos to them. Ferrari aren't really going to turn round and say
"well McLaren wiped the floor with us in 2008 but we won the constructors championship so there!!!"....
not totally true, in the end in the books will be written Ferrarie won the constructors in ...........2007 etc. etc. etc...
it will depend on the age of the reader...
it would be nicer/fairer (IMHO) if they would just take of the excess on ferrari points wise...
tks
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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darrens
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| posted on 13/9/07 at 07:12 PM |
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what the hell constitutes that level of fine!! Something is amiss here, summat ain't being let out the bag.
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omega 24 v6
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| posted on 13/9/07 at 07:40 PM |
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quote:
They've been successful for a V.long time.
And IMHO therein lies the problem. Ferrari thinks it's 50% of formula one and doe'snt want/like the competition. Who would want to win a
championship this way?? there is no dignity and as far as I can see they've shown/given no proof that the information has helped Mclaren. I
doubt Ron Dennis will back down to them though. Hopefully now that'll be it finished and the two best drivers can fight it out FAIRLY with no
one driver being given preferential treatment.
GO ON RON STUFF IT TO THEM
If it looks wrong it probably is wrong.
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britishtrident
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| posted on 13/9/07 at 07:41 PM |
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Sir Jackie S leveled his guns at the FIA for being in FIAT/Ferraris pocket earlier in the week, JYS is closely associated with Ford who are not
normally an ally of Daimler-Chrysler so can be considered impartial. A lot of the others who constitute the sports "great & the good"
including Eddie Jordan are on record that Ferrari & and the FIA are doing immense damage.
Mean while in Ferraris own ranks Jean Todt is apparently very out of favour with the board and Ross Brawn is on his way back.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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speedyxjs
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| posted on 13/9/07 at 08:00 PM |
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Just read this
What is he up to?
How long can i resist the temptation to drop a V8 in?
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omega 24 v6
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| posted on 13/9/07 at 08:02 PM |
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quote:
Mean while in Ferraris own ranks Jean Todt is apparently very out of favour with the board and Ross Brawn is on his way back.
LOL is that cause he dared to speak to Martin Brundle on the grid on saturday. Tis funny how even in the schumi days Ferrari have never been keen to
speak to non German journalists/presenters.
Oh and as a matter of interest HAS ANYONE EVER SEEN KIMI EXCITED.
If it looks wrong it probably is wrong.
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britishtrident
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| posted on 13/9/07 at 08:13 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by omega 24 v6
[
LOL is that cause he dared to speak to Martin Brundle on the grid on saturday. Tis funny how even in the schumi days Ferrari have never been keen to
speak to non German journalists/presenters.
Oh and as a matter of interest HAS ANYONE EVER SEEN KIMI EXCITED.
National trait caused by high latitudes and a diet of herring, I used to think Mika was dour, no wonder Nico Rosberg wants to German, don't
remember his dad Keke being considered dour.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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britishtrident
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| posted on 13/9/07 at 08:19 PM |
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Now Sir Stirling Moss has also slammed the FIA.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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locogeoff
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| posted on 13/9/07 at 08:36 PM |
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Why is everyone having a go at Ferrari, It was McLaren that cheated, Their board where presented with the information and chose to use it, had they
been upfront and went straight to the FIA or Ferrari this would not be happening and they would have been seen as righteous instead of cheating
barstewards.
I also cannot see why the drivers are being allowed to keep their points, at the very least they could have evened up Hamilton and Rikkonen's
points and let them compete on a level playing field until the end of the season
The whole things a farse
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BenB
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| posted on 13/9/07 at 08:45 PM |
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Ferrari just don't like anyone pi$$ing on their formula (by winning). They'd turn F1 in the Ferrari championship.
Ferrari have been the biggest cheats in F1 ever. Listening in on radio traffic, flexi wings, team tactics, driving people off the road etc etc.....
Shumi used to regularly have a butchers at the opposition cars in parc ferme- was that just to check out their paint jobs?
Borrowing ideas off other teams is just standard. Seamless shift technology wasn't released to all cars @ the same time, one got it, the rest
copied them....
A ferrari bod came to McLaren with Ferrari technology. If their own people are squeeling, where's the harm in listening?  Ferrari should take
better control of their own people!!!!
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Rob Palin
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| posted on 13/9/07 at 08:57 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by locogeoff
Why is everyone having a go at Ferrari, It was McLaren that cheated
I think there's plenty of reason to criticise Ferrari in this situation. Firstly because of the moral high ground Ferrari have taken over this
despite the fact that the first thing McLaren did with the information was informally reveal to the FIA that Ferrari were breaking the rules with
regard to their flexible underfloor. McLaren could have gone the formal route and had Ferrari disqualified but instead followed the
gentleman's(!) agreement that exists in F1 about protests. No punishment was handed out to Ferrari for their transgression. As usual. Ferrari
are now pushing for serious official action over this matter when it could/should have been dealt with through normal legal means as industrial
espionage. Toyota were proven in a court of law to have done the same or worse a few years ago with Ferrari staff members but received zero
punishment from the FIA. Why is this different?
IMHO this is the most blatant example yet of the FIA bending over backwards to please Ferrari. Whilst i certainly don't condone McLaren's
behaviour in this matter, i find the subsequent dirty and hypocritical manoeuvering of Ferrari and the FIA to be sickening.
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omega 24 v6
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| posted on 13/9/07 at 09:31 PM |
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Just watched the news and In the press conference Ron Dennis looked like a man devastated. The reporter said that McLaren would like to appeal but are
afraid that the consequences could be even worse WTF. This year has seen some of the most exciting and closest racing/championships for around 15
years.For me probably since Piquet and Mansell's days. But it's been soured by todays outcome. IF there is proof of cheating/spying will
we ever see/hear of it?? At least in a court of law your in front of a jury of men "good and true". If that was the case then perhaps
it'd all be in the open and we could make our own judgement but this way the money men win (untill no one wants to watch 2 Ferraris driving
round a track by themselves). Ron's a self made man who's built up an amazing company capable of beating the money fuelled giants
it's like David versus goliath.
Everyone knows the storyline, and can picture David as a small man with passion and a big heart. Goliath was just a guy that needed a kicking.
If it looks wrong it probably is wrong.
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Russ-Turner
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| posted on 13/9/07 at 09:52 PM |
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It amazes me that a McLaren employee is found in possesion of Ferrari information and Ferrari and the F.I.A. are the bad guys!
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omega 24 v6
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| posted on 13/9/07 at 10:03 PM |
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quote:
It amazes me that a McLaren employee is found in possesion of Ferrari information and Ferrari and the F.I.A. are the bad guys!
Well they got it from a disgruntled Ferrari guy that apart from losing his job and allegedly being chased at high speed by people in ferraris seems to
have got of scot free.
For me the question is does the intellectual property belong to the team or the guy who hadthe idea/invented it.
However the Ron Dennis witchhunt has gone on for years.
Let me ask you this (disregarding todays happenings). Would you be happy to see the demise of formula one due to politics like this. Ferrari, have in
the past always looked to the FIA ,when another team is beating them, if they think they can win on technical infringements.
This whole scenario is based on the fact that IMHO Ferrari fans are passionate about their team to the exclusion of all others. Most other F1 fans see
many aspects of good and brilliance in various other teams but choose to support to a higher degree one of those teams.
If it looks wrong it probably is wrong.
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wheelfelloff
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| posted on 13/9/07 at 10:08 PM |
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The whole sad situation leaves me pondering a couple of questions:
Why would McLaren "spy" on a slower car, surely they don't want to go backwards? The only advantage would be to see how far they are
behind.
Just who will actually pay the fine, if indeed it is ever paid. Likewise who will ensure McLaren stay in the fight next year without TV money. Why
would McClaren stay in F1 to maintain TV money that they can't win?
What will Bernie do? Of course as always we won't know until long after it has been done and even then we may never find out. Nobody makes his
sort of money without the ability to hide a few secrets.
What price now on a "real" constructors series. Hard to see it happen as FIAT seems to have a fat finger in more F1 garages than Ferrari.
I say FIAT as in reality Ferrari ceased to be a number of years ago.
The sad truth is that the public just want the appearance of good racing and are only interested in the drivers. If you don't believe me look at
the viewing figures for this year of Hamilton.
Why am I interested? particularly as the racing has become more and more contrived and less and less real. How many more regulation changes are we
going to have to put up with on the excuse of creating a level playing field. F1 was most successful, other than in making money, when it was the
least regulated formula and yes the wrong team used to win regularly. Just think how many of Chapmans revolutionary ideas would have seen the light
these days. Not many I feel.
IMHO, Bernie will hold it all together for as long as it suits him to. Whatever the cost.
A long suffering and rapidly cooling F1 fan.
Unfortunately all my questons are answered if one considers F1 a business rather than a sport. McClaren is a business that doesn't exist without
F1 and so it will need to survive in F1 to trade. Ferrari currently has the power in the politics of F1 at the moment even if it is getting beaten on
the track. Politics ebb and flow - nothing really changes only the faces.
[Edited on 13/9/07 by wheelfelloff]
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locogeoff
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| posted on 14/9/07 at 12:39 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by omega 24 v6
quote:
It amazes me that a McLaren employee is found in possesion of Ferrari information and Ferrari and the F.I.A. are the bad guys!
Well they got it from a disgruntled Ferrari guy that apart from losing his job and allegedly being chased at high speed by people in ferraris seems to
have got of scot free.
For me the question is does the intellectual property belong to the team or the guy who hadthe idea/invented it.
However the Ron Dennis witchhunt has gone on for years.
Let me ask you this (disregarding todays happenings). Would you be happy to see the demise of formula one due to politics like this. Ferrari, have in
the past always looked to the FIA ,when another team is beating them, if they think they can win on technical infringements.
This whole scenario is based on the fact that IMHO Ferrari fans are passionate about their team to the exclusion of all others. Most other F1 fans see
many aspects of good and brilliance in various other teams but choose to support to a higher degree one of those teams.
I believe Nigel Stepney may face prosecution should he return to Italy but I'm not sure if I would even order a pizza if I was him, I'm
not condoning this but when you work for a team that is founded on passion I think his behavoir was despicable.
Intellectual property tends to belong to the employer rather than the employee, unless stated otherwise in an employment contract.
I'm not a member of the Ron Dennis fan club but I have genuinely felt pitty for the guy this year on a number of occasions, but he can't
play the sneaky underhand game based on leaked info, I refer to the dubious floor rigidity, then use that same knowledge to improve his car then whine
about penalties when he gets caught out.
To give a personal opinion on the question of politics ruining F1 I think the problem is that its not a sport its a business, unfortunately its not a
business called show, its a business of money and when a sport is reduced to money it's the lawers that matter not the fans.
In short, McLaren cheated, they got caught and given a wee slap on the wrist, stating they would help in settling the matter they chose to blatently
misled the governing body about making use of the information, hence the stiff penalty.
The big difference between this case and flexi wings/floors is the old interpretation of the rules chestnut, all teams/lawers push the regulations to
the max and when egineering solutions are seen to be a wee bit cheeky the rules are clarified to make the solution illegal rather than cheeky, Ferrari
with their wings and floors, McLaren with their 2 pedal braking system that turned the back of the car into the corner, and Renault (I think) et al
with their pendulum ballast are all good examples of this, in these cases the soltion was outlawed and removed from the cars in question. In the
current case there was an unsporting element involved that brought the sport into disrepute.
As for running other cars off the road, parking on apex's etc I believe that to be the work of an individual not a team, and in both those cases
the individual was dealt with correctly.
I don't know for sure but financially I think to find a David on a current Formula 1 grid he'll coincidently be driving a Red Bull
On the matter of McLaren getting info on a slower car, they could possibly make use of some aspect of the design or test data of the slowest car on
the track, which would still be wrong.
[Edited on 14/9/07 by locogeoff]
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RK
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| posted on 14/9/07 at 02:57 AM |
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Bernie is behind it. I have no proof, but who has paid him all these years? Who sponsors Ferrari? Is any other car on the grid backed by a cigarette
maker - whom he has supported at every turn. He is a snake. The whole thing is a sham.
And if motor racing, F1 that is, is crooked, what is cycling?
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ned
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| posted on 14/9/07 at 07:00 AM |
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For me the whole thing was summed up very well by Bernie himself at the intro to the last grand prix. He said to Steve Ryder (and I paraphrase)
"If it were two teams at the back of the grid we wouldn't be having this conversation."
Very sad state of affairs for f1.
Ned.
beware, I've got yellow skin
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 14/9/07 at 07:11 AM |
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I prefer to watch the US Champ car series - a good blend of driver skill & team tactics, plus other practical features, e.g. time-limited
'push-to-pass' facility, if a car spins & stalls a marshal runs out with a starter, and so on.
Even the GP2 series that runs alongside the F1 is far more entertaining, with real racing.
[Edited on 14/9/07 by David Jenkins]
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