simonotterre
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 posted on 18/8/11 at 04:44 PM |
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Engine Upgrade Advice
Alright All, I'm here to eek some pearls of wisdom from everyone please. I'm a newbie to this site and Kitcars alike, I've just
purchased a Locost with a 1600 X-Flow, with a 4 speed box (previous track car I've been told). I had the Carbs setup by a local reputable tuner
on advice of previous owner. Ive had that done and runs like a dream. The only problem I have now is i feel its lacking the performance I hoped for
from my first kit car  The engine has already got a port and polished head, fast road cam and been bored out to around the 1700cc mark etc. after
the rolling road tune the guy told me it was kicking out around 60bhp at the wheels for my 450kgs car. I'd really like a 5th gear at least for
the long transits to the Nurberg Ring and the odd dual carriageway.
The advice I'm looking for really is the type of gearbox to go for or inevitably what engine upgrade is quite simple-ish to complete?
I'd like it for fast road use really, no track use, just every day poo your pants on the way too work use really.
Been looking at the red top c20xe, 2.0 pinto but would prefer injection, 1.8 zetec or I thought of maybe a little ambitious but was wondering the
mounting points etc might be the same but a 1.6 cvh RS Turbo engine with a type 9 bolted on? Thats probably the same size as a 1600 x-flow, gearbox
should bolt straight on? But really just advice and previous experience please.
I have an ok knowledge of mechanics but not quite the technical knowledge of gearbox-engine combo's etc.
I'd be looking at doing most work myself with a mate.
Hope I've give you enough information for some good replies.
Cheers All...
Si
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cliftyhanger
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| posted on 18/8/11 at 04:54 PM |
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I think the easiest/cheapest setup would be a zetec with a type 9.
Saying that the power output sounds low at 60bhp (probably 75 at the flywheel?) I thought all 1700 xflows were supposed to be 130bhp. So may be worth
a peek to see what is actually fitted. Saying that a zetec will give a solid 150bhp every day of the week and be as reliable as a reliable thing.
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big-vee-twin
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| posted on 18/8/11 at 05:02 PM |
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Think the most popular reply you will get will be a 2.0 ltr Zetec engine and type 9 gearbox, they are very easy to mate together using the pinto
clutch and a CT133 (Capri) thrust bearing.
There are many parts available for this arrangement and are realitivley cheap.
Using Motorbike throttle bodies such as the GSXR 750 you could get upto around 150hp? Think the 2.0 zetec comes out of the box about 130HP, the 1.8 is
about 115HP.
Think the consensus would be to do a Zetec upgrade rather than Pinto as they are Heavy.
If you want to go the whole hog, go the Duratec route and get 150HP out the box with a possibility to get 200HP.
The Duratec route is not for the faint hearted in terms of cash.
Duratec Engine is fitted, MS2 Extra V3 is assembled and tested, engine running, car now built. IVA passed 26/02/2016
http://www.triangleltd.com
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lotusmadandy
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| posted on 18/8/11 at 05:10 PM |
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Another vote for the zetec route here, good solid
reliable power for not much outlay.
Oh and welcome to the forum.
Andy
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eddie99
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| posted on 18/8/11 at 05:35 PM |
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2ltr blacktop zetec and type 9 gearbox sounds perfect for you, should be looking at 150bhp then
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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deltron63
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| posted on 18/8/11 at 06:07 PM |
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Another vote for a Zetec
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irvined
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| posted on 18/8/11 at 06:13 PM |
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Two routes, rip it all out and go zetec with 5 speed type nine, wont be cheap, but is modern, and lots of people have done this. I considered this
for a while, however in the end i chose not to, and stuck with the crossflow.
My 1700 crossflow with akent 244 cam and jenvey throttle bodies is putting out around 130, thats twice what your getting now, and was easier than a
zetec. Thie nice thing about this route is you can do it piecemeal. So there is less risk of a winter project turning into 3 years...
What cam are you running? Kent 244 or bf285 are great in a sevan, next time i have it in bits, i will probably go one more up, as with fuek injection
its still very driveable low down the rev range.
The crossflow is old hat, but its cheap, parts are still plentiful, its easy to tune, and can take a lot of abuse. Id say its an affordable engine up
to 140hp, after that it gets very expenisive and your better with another engine, zetec being hie standard choice.
http://irvined.blogspot.com
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rusty nuts
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| posted on 18/8/11 at 06:25 PM |
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If your only getting 60 BHP at the wheels something is very wrong. My Xflow has around 130 at the flywheel , I know transmission losses will account
for a few horsepower but nowhere near 70
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simonotterre
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| posted on 18/8/11 at 06:40 PM |
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Reply
Alright all, this is thereason I joined this forum for all this knowledge. I'm gonna ring the tuner tomorrow to confirm he said 60hp. The car
runs lovely now and has nothing notably wrong, it's feels like a short-ish ratio 4 speed box but nothing extreme. It does only have a single
weber on the engine, surely that wouldn't Scooby for 70bhp? The guy I bought it off said it had around 130hp, but I have no reference to go by
as it's my first kit car. I also have a receipt from Newark Engines about the work carried out to the 1600 x-flow. Would there be a part number
on the engine block etc to verify the size of the engine?
Thanks for all your help everyone.
Si
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simonotterre
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| posted on 19/8/11 at 09:55 AM |
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Rolling road ok...
Just spoke to the tuner who has done my rolling road setup and confirmed he said around 60bhp at the wheels. I am now at a loss to as why the engine
is not kicking out more? I've checked the code on the side of the block and it's definately a 1600.
Any ideas anyone?
Would also like a 5 speed box for the x-flow, what does everyone commonly use?
Cheers
Si
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Furyous
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| posted on 19/8/11 at 02:52 PM |
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I have a 1700cc crossflow with twin 40s. No idea what the internals are with regards to cams and compression ratio and whatnot. It makes 110bhp at the
flywheel. I didn't get a report on wheel horse power. Admittedly, I know naff all about engine tuning, but I don't think 60hp at the
wheels is all that unreasonable for a single carb. If that's about 80bhp at the flywheel, then it's not a million miles off my twin carb
set up.
The previous owner saying 130bhp was probably exaggerating to get a sale. From what I gather, it would need a 244 cam and definitely twin carbs to get
near that. 234 cams are good for a bit over 120bhp.
Type 9 gearboxes are a popular choice for a 5 speed.
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simonotterre
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| posted on 21/8/11 at 07:54 AM |
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Cheers
So what am I looking for in terms of gearbox and making sure it all fits correctly? Just a sierra type 9 gearbox, or do I need a certain clutch
etc...
[Edited on 21/8/11 by simonotterre]
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alistairolsen
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| posted on 22/8/11 at 11:38 AM |
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I'm biased but after recent experiences I wouldnt touch a zetec again with a barge pole. Either the Ecotec x20xev or 'red top'
C20XE vauxhall engines are a good bet, with self contained engine management looms, starters mounted to the block and can be fitted to either an Omega
box or with an appropriate bellhousing, to a type 9 etc.
As far as I'm concerned, but engines are better than the zetec, easier to own and less work to fit.
My Build Thread
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tompat3463
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| posted on 22/8/11 at 11:52 AM |
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Blade !!!!!!!!!!!
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FASTdan
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| posted on 22/8/11 at 03:11 PM |
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A well specced 1700 would not make for a disappointing first kit car experience - my mate had one producing 130ish, screamed to 7500rpm and pulled
like a train, properly addictive. 60 whp sounds very low to me.
NEW danST WEBSITE NOW LIVE! Bike carbs, throttle bodies and more......
http://www.danstengineering.co.uk/
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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rusty nuts
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| posted on 22/8/11 at 07:14 PM |
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My 1640cc or thereabouts Xflow running a Kent cams BCF2 cam and a big valve head from ebay and a home made manifold and bike TBs produced 127 BHP at
the flywheel on Emeralds rolling road .Sort of blows the theory the they can't produce around 130BHP, IMHO of course. Xflows can be tuned
fairly cheaply and simply
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 22/8/11 at 07:34 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by alistairolsen
I'm biased but after recent experiences I wouldnt touch a zetec again with a barge pole. Either the Ecotec x20xev or 'red top'
C20XE vauxhall engines are a good bet, with self contained engine management looms, starters mounted to the block and can be fitted to either an Omega
box or with an appropriate bellhousing, to a type 9 etc.
As far as I'm concerned, but engines are better than the zetec, easier to own and less work to fit.
The Zetec has quite a few advantages:
Very cheap.
Easily available.
Produces as much or more power than a tuned crossflow (but with much better economy).
Bolts right up to a Type 9, no aftermarket bellhousing required.
Very popular so all the pitfalls have been discovered and worked around.
I'm a big fan of the 20XE, but decent ones are fetching good money now, and they are nothing like as easy to find as a good Zetec.
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keithometune
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| posted on 22/8/11 at 09:20 PM |
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years ago i had a 1600 xflow with a piper magnum 285 and a single webber and that made 76 at the wheels, 60 is about what a good standard engine would
make, could be worth checking out why yours is down on power first.
keith
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alistairolsen
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| posted on 23/8/11 at 07:01 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
quote:
Originally posted by alistairolsen
I'm biased but after recent experiences I wouldnt touch a zetec again with a barge pole. Either the Ecotec x20xev or 'red top'
C20XE vauxhall engines are a good bet, with self contained engine management looms, starters mounted to the block and can be fitted to either an Omega
box or with an appropriate bellhousing, to a type 9 etc.
As far as I'm concerned, but engines are better than the zetec, easier to own and less work to fit.
The Zetec has quite a few advantages:
Very cheap.
Easily available.
Produces as much or more power than a tuned crossflow (but with much better economy).
Bolts right up to a Type 9, no aftermarket bellhousing required.
Very popular so all the pitfalls have been discovered and worked around.
I'm a big fan of the 20XE, but decent ones are fetching good money now, and they are nothing like as easy to find as a good Zetec.
no cheaper or more available than the ecotec engine IMO, which id prefer by a mile. Mine was free, in a mondeo and I still wish I hadnt bothered.
So will ANY modern engine with both fuel injection and more capacity than a crossflow, thats like saying flu is better than pneumonia.
yup, or an MT75, then requires a mishmash of bearings, clutch and flywheels and a new starter, which is from some manky old sierra they build 4 of
about 100 years ago and wants to occupy the same space as the sump anyway!
God knows why, the wiring is horrible, the OE ecu so integrated you have to either be a wiring genius or epically tight to try to reuse it (unlike the
vauxhall ones which just unplug...) The timing setup is horrible, the water pump drive prevents an easy belt routing, the inlet manifold is huge and
made of plastic and fitted with injectors which are rare and expensive to replace.
I just cant see why anyone would want one, whether as a standard engine, or a long motor for tuning apart from the cheap argument, which just doesnt
stack up.
My Build Thread
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lotusmadandy
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| posted on 23/8/11 at 07:53 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by alistairolsen
quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
quote:
Originally posted by alistairolsen
I'm biased but after recent experiences I wouldnt touch a zetec again with a barge pole. Either the Ecotec x20xev or 'red top'
C20XE vauxhall engines are a good bet, with self contained engine management looms, starters mounted to the block and can be fitted to either an Omega
box or with an appropriate bellhousing, to a type 9 etc.
As far as I'm concerned, but engines are better than the zetec, easier to own and less work to fit.
The Zetec has quite a few advantages:
Very cheap.
Easily available.
Produces as much or more power than a tuned crossflow (but with much better economy).
Bolts right up to a Type 9, no aftermarket bellhousing required.
Very popular so all the pitfalls have been discovered and worked around.
I'm a big fan of the 20XE, but decent ones are fetching good money now, and they are nothing like as easy to find as a good Zetec.
no cheaper or more available than the ecotec engine IMO, which id prefer by a mile. Mine was free, in a mondeo and I still wish I hadnt bothered.
So will ANY modern engine with both fuel injection and more capacity than a crossflow, thats like saying flu is better than pneumonia.
yup, or an MT75, then requires a mishmash of bearings, clutch and flywheels and a new starter, which is from some manky old sierra they build 4 of
about 100 years ago and wants to occupy the same space as the sump anyway!
God knows why, the wiring is horrible, the OE ecu so integrated you have to either be a wiring genius or epically tight to try to reuse it (unlike the
vauxhall ones which just unplug...) The timing setup is horrible, the water pump drive prevents an easy belt routing, the inlet manifold is huge and
made of plastic and fitted with injectors which are rare and expensive to replace.
I just cant see why anyone would want one, whether as a standard engine, or a long motor for tuning apart from the cheap argument, which just doesnt
stack up.
Every one has there own opinion/dislike of a particular engine but i love my 2.0 zetec.
I found it a doddle to fit,though i use bike carbs with megajolt atm so that was easy as well.
It will also rev to 7000 every outing and comes back for more.
I cant speak for the oe ecu because i have never fittted one but i know of some who have
and it doesnt seem that difficult.
I cant speak for others and im not trying to start a ford vauxhall argument,this is just my opinion.
Andy
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alistairolsen
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| posted on 23/8/11 at 08:34 AM |
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I wouldnt say I'm fond of a particular engine, just don't like zetecs 
Any long engine is a relative doddle to fit if your binning both manifolds and the zetec still isnt any better than anything else
IMHO the only reason for its popularity is that it mates to ford boxes and (further IMHO) once you figure the full installation cost of a standard
engine it's not worth it.
I'm not trying to start a ford/vauxhall debate either, merely trying to dispell the total myth that zetec are somehow cheaper to buy and fit
than anything else available and then somehow better once done!
My Build Thread
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whitestu
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| posted on 23/8/11 at 09:22 AM |
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quote:
I'm not trying to start a ford/vauxhall debate either, merely trying to dispell the total myth that zetec are somehow cheaper to buy and fit
than anything else available and then somehow better once done!
I've no experience of fitting Vauxhall engines, but like Andy said a Zetec on bike carbs is super easy and really cheap.
Mine cost about £250 to convert from a CVH - that includes the engine and everything inlet / ignition related. The exhaust was reused from the
CVH.
Stu
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cliftyhanger
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| posted on 23/8/11 at 09:45 AM |
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Have I missed something??
What is actually wrong with the zetecs?
Not being funny either, I have always thought of them as pretty bombproof motors, just like most of the modern engines about, and indeed many older
ones. (yes, even my old Triumph OHV engine, supposed to be weak and hopeless proved to be bombproof up until the point I tried my own homebrew oil
cooler, which failed and lost all the oil)
In terms of costs, spoke to a chap with another old car (triumph Toledo) on sunday. Had dropped a carlton engine on full std management, mated to an
omega box all done for £250 including all the odds and ends. Bit of a bargain I reckon.
[Edited on 23/8/11 by cliftyhanger]
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