gasket999
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| posted on 15/12/14 at 02:15 PM |
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Which Zetec is closest to Lotus Twincam?
Hi folks, hoping you can help.
My Dad has a pre-lit Westfield. Its a 1660 x-flow on twin carbs, 2000e box (not close-ratio), English axle. After 110,000 miles the head has cracked.
He’s looking at modern alternatives and I mentioned that this forum was a good source of info.
His x-flow was a well tuned engine back in the ‘80s. Build by a respected builder (Dave ‘something’ engine developments if I remember rightly) and set
up on a rolling road – I seem to remember it was making 120-130bhp at the wheels.
He’s sold the engine to a friend and is now looking for a replacement.
The dream engine would have been a Lotus Twincam – but price, spares availability and reliability have killed that idea. But a Zetec seems like an
ideal choice.
He’d like to run it on carbs and is aiming for a similar amount of power, ideally a similar capacity – something that will behave like a Twink and
will suit the existing drivetrain (happy to change diff ratios if needs be). Relaibility and future parts availability are essential points as he uses
it for European touring.
Carbs plus a stainless exhaust are immediate tweaks, but want to keep the tuning to a minimum – cams are OK but not much more.
But there are a dizzying array of Zetec engines available and we want to take the time to choose and find the most suitable one.
1600 Zetec/Zeta
1800 Zetec/Zeta
2000 Zetec/Zeta (not keen on such a big engine)
1400 Zetec-SE/Sigma (bit small)
1700 Zetec-SE/Sigma
It should bolt up to a 2000e, but other fitting is not a problem.
A list of suitable Donor cars for the best engines would be massively appreciated too.
Many thanks.
Obviously a 1600 zetec from a focus with its steel block, aluminium head and similar capacity would be a logical choice as a twink alternative, but
I’m not sure on how this engine compares to others in the Zetec range, nor whether the exhaust and carbs would give the 125-ish bhp he’s after.
I’ve read that the 1.8 came in a 130bhp form (and that the 115bhp can be upgraded by adding the alternative cams) – so the power is definitely
available sub 2.0.
We’ll definitely be adding uprated con rod bolts so the engine will be taken apart at some point.
[Edited on 15/12/14 by gasket999]
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Ugg10
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| posted on 15/12/14 at 02:36 PM |
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I would say the 1.6 Zetec SE (Sigma) in terms of size, design and character. You can get these from Focus, Fiesta and Puma cars.
Steer clear of the 1.6 Zetec-e not easy to tune, if you want the pipes on the same side as the twink then jump straight to the black top 2.0l Zetec if
you want a larger capacity or even to the ST170 (badged duratec but rally a Zetec-e) but you will need to control the Variable valve with either an
ecu or a separate box (available), that also goes for the Puma 1.7.
The Sigma will need a bell housing for a Type 9 gearbox as it is not like the older ford engines in terms of bolt pattern - Shawspeed and RWD have
these. You can also run bike carbs pretty successfully - chester sportscars do a bolt on kit that get you to about 145hp with no internal or cam mods.
But with engine, carbs, ecu, exhaust and a few other bits you are looking at £2k for a transplant I would guess. If you add HD valve springs and ARP
rod bolts this will rev to 8k easily.
Only difference to the twink is the exhaust/inlet are on different sides. This engine is also now used by Westfield and Caterham on their lower end
models so plenty of bits about.
The Toyota 4Age (from the corolla in RWD format) was designed as a japanese copy of the twink so I would add this to the list as well. Raw specialise
in these to go in their Striker cars.
Hope this helps.
[Edited on 15/12/14 by Ugg10]
[Edited on 15/12/14 by Ugg10]
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1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com
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rdodger
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| posted on 15/12/14 at 03:00 PM |
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I think I would go for a Zetec E engine and then fit the BDA style rocker cover from Burton Power
http://www.burtonpower.com/bda-style-rocker-cover-zetec-e-silver-black-top-fz230.html
Kit Spares do a Brand new 2.0L Blacktop for £868 inc VAT On twin carbs that would do a very unstressed 150BHP
http://www.kitspares.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=43_8&product_id=273&car=43
[Edited on 15/12/14 by rdodger]
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DW100
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| posted on 15/12/14 at 03:03 PM |
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The 1.6 Zetec in a Focus is all aluminium with the exhaust on the right. ( Crossflow/Lotus twincam on left)
Earlier 1.6 iron block zetec is not very tunable.
1.8/2.0 Zetec from Mk2 Mondeo / focus will look most like a twincam. Exhaust and carbs on the right side and will bolt to existing bellhousing. If you
use a 2.0 you should get a nice driveable, reliable 160/170 Bhp with just carbs and an exhaust.
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gasket999
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| posted on 15/12/14 at 04:05 PM |
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Thank you very much folks – the above replies are already very helpful.
So (like-for-like) the revvy aluminium-blocked Zetec would make the better driver’s car, but... the exhaust would be on the wrong side (would like to
keep everything in the same orientation) and I think that the parts supply, while pretty good, is not as good as the 1.8s and 2.0s. I understand from
the above that it would also require an custom bellhousing.
Whereas the iron-blocked 1.6-2.0 would not need an adaptor (I believe these bolt straight to a 2000e with the correct clutch parts). These 1.6-2.0s
would also leave the exhaust and carbs in the same orientation as the x-flow. The parts supply is better and I’m guessing that machining potential
would be better in future too (if we couldn’t find a new short engine).
So the 1.6-2.0 are on the shortlist.
The 2.0 would produce too much power for us – he (and I) like the way the car drives and while I know people get away with large amounts of torque in
an English axle, I’m aware its a weak link and need to make sure we have a margin of safety given he could be touring through Italy if it breaks. The
brakes on the car are also standard Cortina mk3 front/Escort mk2 rear.
So that leaves the 100bhp 1.6 and the 115 or 130bhp 1.8.
Could anyone hazard a guess as to the power/torque expectations of these three engines with carbs and a side exit exhaust? The only other mod would be
uprated conrod bolts and a thorough overhaul.
The target is a very reliable, usable, unstressed 125bhp with a nice torque curve.
It has been mentioned twice above that the 1.6 is not very tunable... is it a case that it is of a weaker design which doesn’t drive as well/has
problems or is there simply less tuning support so less power potential? If it is the latter then if carbs + exhaust would give the required power and
reliability it could still be in play and the 1.6 capacity would be bang on the money.
Finally is a blacktop preferable over the later silvertop? Again donors, reliability, simplicity and parts availability are key drivers here.
PS I love the BDA rocker cover! I know he plans to polish up the existing cover but that may be a great future Xmas gift from the family.
[Edited on 15/12/14 by gasket999]
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gasket999
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| posted on 15/12/14 at 04:06 PM |
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Also - I should point out that I have a vested interest here: I've just picked up my mk4 Cortina uprights and am gathering parts for a
traditional book-Locost build.
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19sac65
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| posted on 15/12/14 at 04:16 PM |
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What about the rs1800 from the fiesta or the 130ps 1800 engine
Pretty much the same power as a 2.0,very happy to rev
Ime running one on carbs and its a great little engine - i like the idea of a sub 2.0 engine for some strange reason
Or if you want to stay old school a fiat twin cam
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Ugg10
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| posted on 15/12/14 at 04:20 PM |
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Here's a 4age conversion all in (NTDWM) for info/comparison -
4age ae86 engine convershion. T50 gearbox ideal ke30 ke70 starlet
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1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com
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DW100
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| posted on 15/12/14 at 04:21 PM |
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The Iron block 1.6 was a much more emissions based engine. The manifolds from the larger engine will bolt on as far as I know, but you will be
disappointed with the performance compared to a tuned crossflow. You may end up with 120bhp flywheel (95 at the wheels)
The 1.8 can be upgraded with the 130bhp cams and with carbs should produce 145-150?
The silver top is getting a little long in the tooth now (last were 1998), finding one in good condition is getting harder and it is probably cheaper
to buy a new crate engine than rebuild a worn out one. But nothing wrong with it if you find a good one.
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gasket999
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| posted on 15/12/14 at 04:39 PM |
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Fantastic – thank you very much – 1600 is out and 1800 blacktop it is. I’ll try and post pics once its done.
Which carbs would be most suitable for a 1800? Can they be fitted with commonly available parts? In the spirit of KISS it may be worth just taking a
130bhp 1800 and fitting it without the carbs – what do you think?
I love the 4AGE from the MK1 MR2 and have also heard good things about the fiat twin cam – both are getting a bit expensive now though and would need
adaptors to fit.
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Ugg10
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| posted on 15/12/14 at 04:40 PM |
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Another option would the be MX5 engine/gearbox - 1.6 or 1.8 and could run on carbs but the injection is pretty easy to keep on the original ECU,
gearbox is better than either the ford 4 or 5 speeds.
---------------------------------------------------------------
1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com
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19sac65
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| posted on 15/12/14 at 05:32 PM |
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I decided on bike carbs for a few reasons
To retain the webers would need manifold / larger chokes / jets plus setup
Webers are a bit past it now - bike carbs are a more modern design/ simpler/ stay in tune / dont leak and idle nicely
The money i got from selling the webers paid for a good chunk of the conversion
I made my own manifold from a kit from Ebay and bought some cbr carbs - 600cc fine for a stock 1.8
Idles rock solid at 800 rpm,throttle response is instant and the garage doesnt stink of fuel
[Edited on 15/12/14 by 19sac65]
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Ugg10
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| posted on 15/12/14 at 07:00 PM |
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http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthread.php?t=690220
Ntdwm but give you an idea what a sh kit will cost.
---------------------------------------------------------------
1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com
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DW100
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| posted on 15/12/14 at 07:16 PM |
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Where abouts are you?
I've got a 1.8 Escort engine that had done 50,000miles. Used it in my hillclimber once before deciding that 2.0 was the way to go. Comes with
1.8 sump and flywheel and red powder coated cam cover.
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redturner
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| posted on 15/12/14 at 07:28 PM |
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When the x-flow in my single seater finally let go I picked up a 30k Zetec black top for £150, fitted a set of R1 bike carbs on a Danst manifold and
it made 165bhp at the back wheels. When I removed the sump to put a dry sump kit on we discovered that the bores were in perfect condition. It has now
done 3 seasons hill climbing here in the UK and in France and still runs beautifully. Not much point in fitting a replica BDA rocker cover if you want
a twin cam look, you can spend the £300 odd on a set of cams at some later day....
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alfas
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| posted on 15/12/14 at 10:00 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by rdodger
I think I would go for a Zetec E engine and then fit the BDA style rocker cover from Burton Power
http://www.burtonpower.com/bda-style-rocker-cover-zetec-e-silver-black-top-fz230.html
Kit Spares do a Brand new 2.0L Blacktop for £868 inc VAT On twin carbs that would do a very unstressed 150BHP
http://www.kitspares.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=43_8&product_id=273&car=43
[Edited on 15/12/14 by rdodger]
thats excatly what i would have recommended too...
dont waste your time with this lotus twincam Icon...a nice engine...but also an expensive engine nowadays.
techically&powerwise the zetec does everything better.
5 years ago i also owned a nice IRS westfield-SE. the car was fitted with a freshly rebuilt 1700 lotus twincam bigvalve engine (block was a 711
x/flow) with twin 45 dellorto carbs, connected to a ford T9 five-speed box.
a nice and torquey engine with lots of power....i bought the car for 3800pound and i remember that the fomer owner was asked several times selling the
engine seperately. finally i sold the car a few years later and the twincam engine was the problem:
for buyers who searched a "normal" westfield the engine was the critical point, surplus they did not want to pay a bit more for the car
because of that engine.
for buyers who searched something with lotus "pedigree" the engine was interesting, but not the car where it was fitted. in a pre-lit it
might have been a different story.
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kingster996
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| posted on 16/12/14 at 10:42 AM |
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Don't forget to factor in the 'hidden' costs of an engine swap:
As well as an engine (let's say a 1.8 blacktop) you'll need a sump, windage tray, water pump pulley mods, clutch, flywheel, alternator,
spigot bearing, inlet manifold, exhaust manifold, ecu/ignition, carbs/itb's, water hoses - and other bits I've forgotten.
Makes the £1500 package on the other forum look reasonable if it has a sump!
I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not so sure
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gasket999
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| posted on 17/12/14 at 11:43 PM |
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Thats perfect - thanks guys. I've passed the info on to my dad. He lives way up near scotland so unfortunately devon is a ways away.
Think he'll either buy a new motor or will buy a low mileage donor and run it for a while before breaking.
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