sgraber
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 posted on 25/2/08 at 08:12 PM |
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She Bang -- and blue smoke out the exhaust
Well guys - I done blew 'er up. The 4AGTE that is.
Doing a WOT run up through the gears last night I felt the power fall off in 4th and I knew something had gone wrong so I backed off and luckily was
just around the corner from home. Lots of blue smoke out the exhaust as I pulled in to the garage.
I did a compression test and as I removed spark plug from #3 cyl blue smoke was rising out of the plug hole.
Looking into the cylinders #'s 1,2 and 3 are wet on the piston surface and I'm assuming it's oil. #4 is dry. Compression test shows
160psi on #4 and 115psi evenly on #'s 1,2 and 3.
I'll be pulling the engine and replacing with a B16 J-Spec Honda mill. If I rebuild the 4AGE it will go back to Normally Aspirated. Turbo is a
wild ride but comes on the power to suddenly to make the car tractable in the corners.
It was fun tho!
Steve Graber
http://www.grabercars.com/
"Quickness through lightness"
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RazMan
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| posted on 25/2/08 at 08:44 PM |
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What a shame Steve At least you have an excuse to go for the B16 though - nice and bulletproof.
You might consider going for a progressive boost controller next time as it takes the sting out of the power band and is kinder to the engine too.
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 25/2/08 at 09:36 PM |
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dare I ask how many revs you were pulling?
Fame is when your old car is plastered all over the internet
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sgraber
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| posted on 25/2/08 at 09:51 PM |
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On full throttle acceleration runs I find myself shifting at 6800 (according to the datalogs) - But of course I don't ALWAYS drive it like I
stole it. 
I wonder - It could be a broken ring land or a blown headgasket eh? I suppose a squirt of oil in the cylinder and another compression test will tell
the tale?
G.
Edit - Oil squirted in cylinder brings pressure up to 160psi.
[Edited on 2/25/08 by sgraber]
Steve Graber
http://www.grabercars.com/
"Quickness through lightness"
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 25/2/08 at 11:46 PM |
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I'd be suprised if three rings failed at the same time, seems rather unlikely. My guess is the gasket lifted, did steam come out the exhaust or
is there water in the oil, i.e is there cream throth mixed in with it?
Take the head off and check the face is totally flat, it may have a warp in it.
Fame is when your old car is plastered all over the internet
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sgraber
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| posted on 26/2/08 at 01:10 AM |
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I just replaced the head gasket several months ago. I decided to use a stock hg because I considered it to be a 'fuse' or a weak link, in
case of just this type of event. But I forgot that I had done that!
Good call! So I will do this before going any further. Thanks.
Steve Graber
http://www.grabercars.com/
"Quickness through lightness"
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kb58
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| posted on 26/2/08 at 01:54 AM |
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Why a B16 and not the B18C3/5? (Knowing we all have different reasons for different engines.) The larger engine though would give you much needed
torque. Heck, how about the K20A2?
Mid-engine Locost - http://www.midlana.com
And the book - http://www.lulu.com/shop/kurt-bilinski/midlana/paperback/product-21330662.html
Kimini - a tube-frame, carbon shell, Honda Prelude VTEC mid-engine Mini: http://www.kimini.com
And its book -
http://www.lulu.com/shop/kurt-bilinski/kimini-how-to-design-and-build-a-mid-engine-sports-car-from-scratch/paperback/product-4858803.html
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akrallysport
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| posted on 26/2/08 at 03:51 AM |
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I also second going with a larger displacement Honda engine, considering a stock USDM B16 only produced 110+ lb-ft of torque... the stock B18 in my
1990 Integra produced 140hp/120+ lb-ft without VTEC.
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sgraber
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| posted on 26/2/08 at 05:24 AM |
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I am almost certain it's this one:
B16B
* VTEC
* Found in:
o 1997-2000 Civic Type R[EK9]
+ Displacement: 1595 cc
+ Compression: 10.8:1
+ Bore: 81mm
+ Stroke: 77mm
+ Rod/Stroke ratio: 1.84:1
+ Power: 185 hp (137 kW) @ 8200 rpm & 118 ft·lbf (160 N·m) @ 7500 rpm
+ Redline: 9000 rpm
+ Transmission: S4C With LSD
Steve Graber
http://www.grabercars.com/
"Quickness through lightness"
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Kaspa
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| posted on 26/2/08 at 07:29 AM |
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Steve sounds to me like your Fuse blew alright, the fact that it was blue smoke aint all that serious , if it was white smoke, its all over red rover,
[oil]
i'd put the Honda in any way , much better engine and about a bullet proof as they can get.
Cheers kaspa
understeer= when you hit the wall front first
oversteer=when you hit the wall back first
HP= how fast you hit the wall
Torque= how far the wall moves when you hit it
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kb58
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| posted on 26/2/08 at 09:15 PM |
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Don't forget that hp is for top speed while torque is for acceleration 
Mid-engine Locost - http://www.midlana.com
And the book - http://www.lulu.com/shop/kurt-bilinski/midlana/paperback/product-21330662.html
Kimini - a tube-frame, carbon shell, Honda Prelude VTEC mid-engine Mini: http://www.kimini.com
And its book -
http://www.lulu.com/shop/kurt-bilinski/kimini-how-to-design-and-build-a-mid-engine-sports-car-from-scratch/paperback/product-4858803.html
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sgraber
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| posted on 26/2/08 at 09:25 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by kb58
Don't forget that hp is for top speed while torque is for acceleration
$1,000 for the B16 from my friend who has one sitting in his garage taking up valuable space vs $2,500 plus shipping and tax for a B18...
Sometimes the solutions we get are based on more complex equations than the always simple and desirable "more power is better" equation. I
have developed and refined a complex equation I call 'My wife can handle the number' equation. 
Note that the extra $2,000 (shipping added) nets about 15 extra ft/lb of torque and the hp is similar.
B18C GSR
178 @ 7600rpm
128 lb-ft @ 6200rpm
8900rpm
[Edited on 2/26/08 by sgraber]
Steve Graber
http://www.grabercars.com/
"Quickness through lightness"
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Spyderman
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| posted on 27/2/08 at 02:37 PM |
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What happened to the Motorbike engine you were once planning on fitting? I thought you already had that. V4 wasn't it?
Surely the bird in hand is better than two in the bush!
Terry
Spyderman
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sgraber
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| posted on 27/2/08 at 02:49 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Spyderman
What happened to the Motorbike engine you were once planning on fitting? I thought you already had that. V4 wasn't it?
Surely the bird in hand is better than two in the bush!
Terry
I have an FJ1300R sitting in the garage, but I have plans to make a lightweight version of la bala to use that in. ~650Kg. I think that at 730Kg my
current car is just to heavy for a bike engine. My friend Bill Kibler who helped me with the bodywork and is a machinist by trade has expressed
interest in making all kinds of bespoke lightweight parts for the track version.
Steve Graber
http://www.grabercars.com/
"Quickness through lightness"
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thomas4age
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| posted on 27/2/08 at 03:37 PM |
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put the right gasket in the 4age, and have it set up right. nothing wrong with a 4age.
B and D16's throw out more rods through the casing than 4age's so the term bulletproof is quite debatable. Bauke went to 3 good ones in a
year in the mojo, now he has a build one that cost some dear amount of money but stays in one piece,
my old 16v 4age rattled harder than a concrete mixer with stones in it, but went on, and on, and on, and on.... on track also. till I decided for
more power and fitted a 20v oil presure by then on the 16v was reading 0 at idle but still went like mad.
nothing wrong with honda to, but compare a 4age 16v to a D16 honda and a 20v VVT 4age to a B16 v-tec to get the records straight.
what about the 1.8L audi turbo lump.
Grtz Thomas
[Edited on 27/2/08 by thomas4age]
If Lucas made guns, Wars wouldn't start either.
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sgraber
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| posted on 5/3/08 at 07:57 PM |
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Thomas, your mention of the vvt 20v 4age made me look a little closer at that option.
Turns out the bellhousing on the 16v and the 20v Toyotas are identical and I can even use the existing clutch. The power output and weight between the
B16 and the 20v 1.6 4AGE Silvertop are comparable.
So I just bought one for $400USD and will be installing it this weekend. I will use the B16 for another project.
My 4AGTE ended up having a broken piston ring land.
Steve Graber
http://www.grabercars.com/
"Quickness through lightness"
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sgraber
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| posted on 12/3/08 at 01:20 AM |
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Fits like a glove it does!
I am missing a few connectors, but expect to have it running soon.
Steve Graber
http://www.grabercars.com/
"Quickness through lightness"
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Sven
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| posted on 12/3/08 at 02:23 AM |
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That's great. Same motor I have in my locost, albeit very modified. This maybe the cheapest performance upgrade a 16v owner could do, the 20v
motors have gobs more power for very little money.
-Steve
"Lightheadedness through quickness"
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sgraber
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| posted on 13/3/08 at 03:51 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Sven
That's great. Same motor I have in my locost, albeit very modified. -Steve
Might I inquire as to the modifications you have made to the 20v?
I have ditched the AFM and going with MegaSquirt which is MAP/TPS based along with a Ford Edis ignition. I have to wonder if ditching the airbox and
replacing with some well designed velocity stacks would improve the top end? I suppose it all depends on the length of the stacks...
The head might benefit from some porting too? But most people say that there is not much extra to be had without spending a ton of money.
Thoughts?
Steve Graber
http://www.grabercars.com/
"Quickness through lightness"
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Sven
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| posted on 13/3/08 at 07:02 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by sgraber
Might I inquire as to the modifications you have made to the 20v?
I have ditched the AFM and going with MegaSquirt which is MAP/TPS based along with a Ford Edis ignition. I have to wonder if ditching the airbox and
replacing with some well designed velocity stacks would improve the top end? I suppose it all depends on the length of the stacks...
The head might benefit from some porting too? But most people say that there is not much extra to be had without spending a ton of money.
Thoughts?
Yeh, I've read the same about head porting. Yamaha did a great job was the summary. I haven't done any performance modifications,
although I plan a tubular tuned length exhaust which I doubt will add anything as the motor came with one stock.
I did basically what you're planning. A lot of this is on faith as the motor hasn't run in this configuration, although it did a couple
years ago with the stock ECU. I'm a couple weeks, and several small jobs, away from starting the wiring. The final step before giving the
motor some fire and then I'll know if all this will work for me.
Megasquirt and Megajolt w/ EDIS. I'll likely combine into a later Megasquirt revision later. I removed the airbox and purchased velocity
stacks from Australia, which are now bolted on. I got rid of all the emissions stuff and rerouted the water flow by blocking off the side and rear
water passages and making the flow replicate a 16V RWD motor. I also installed GM style water temp senders as they're cheap and Megasquirt
supports them with no modification. The injectors also got cleaned and dyno'd.
I have wiring sheets for the 20V if you don't already and I'd be happy to share experiences once the bugger runs.
-Steve
[Edited on 3/13/2008 by Sven]
"Lightheadedness through quickness"
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sgraber
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| posted on 13/3/08 at 07:19 PM |
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Since I am moving from a 16v bluetop to 20v and just bringing the MegaSquirt straight over, there were very few electrical issues.
I have to re-route the exhaust (again...) sigh. And re-route the coolant lines.
Then it's back to the dyno to see where the vvt wants to kick on and to tune the maps.
So many things to do, so little geld.
Steve Graber
http://www.grabercars.com/
"Quickness through lightness"
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Sven
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| posted on 14/3/08 at 01:14 AM |
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Quote regarding the VVT:
"Solenoid is earthed via the ECU at approximately 4500 RPM."
I've read it make little difference, I'll be triggering it via the Megasquirt at some point. If you're using the stock ECU
it's all built in.
I have quite a bit of spare parts for the 20v if you're interested ... unlikely, but I thought I ask before sending it up to ebay.
-Steve
"Lightheadedness through quickness"
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kb58
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| posted on 14/3/08 at 01:40 AM |
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What, are you going to hand the parts to yourself? This is a bit much, having an conversation with yourself online. I guess I don't understand
the purpose. For those who don't know, sgraber = Steve = Sven. If the purpose is to keep the thread alive, fair enough, but what's with
the alias?
[Edited on 3/14/08 by kb58]
Mid-engine Locost - http://www.midlana.com
And the book - http://www.lulu.com/shop/kurt-bilinski/midlana/paperback/product-21330662.html
Kimini - a tube-frame, carbon shell, Honda Prelude VTEC mid-engine Mini: http://www.kimini.com
And its book -
http://www.lulu.com/shop/kurt-bilinski/kimini-how-to-design-and-build-a-mid-engine-sports-car-from-scratch/paperback/product-4858803.html
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sgraber
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| posted on 14/3/08 at 03:28 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Sven
Quote regarding the VVT:
I've read it make little difference, I'll be triggering it via the Megasquirt at some point.
I have quite a bit of spare parts for the 20v if you're interested ... unlikely, but I thought I ask before sending it up to ebay.
-Steve
I have heard exactly the opposite about vvt and that it really behaves like a poor mans VTEC by varying the timing on the intake side. The key when
using an aftermarket ECU such as the MS is to make a number of Dyno pulls with the vvt disengaged, then fully engaged. Where the powerbands intersect
that's where you engage the vvt. That way if you make modifications to the engine you can tune the vvt to the correct location.
I would be interested in a lightweight flywheel and a number of electrical connectors for the engine senders... My engine did not include a wiring
harness and the connectors are all different between the 16v and the 20v --- But I would imagine that is going to be a stretch...
Kurt, you scare me.
Steve Graber
http://www.grabercars.com/
"Quickness through lightness"
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Sven
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| posted on 15/3/08 at 01:26 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by sgraber
I have heard exactly the opposite about vvt and that it really behaves like a poor mans VTEC by varying the timing on the intake side. The key when
using an aftermarket ECU such as the MS is to make a number of Dyno pulls with the vvt disengaged, then fully engaged. Where the powerbands intersect
that's where you engage the vvt. That way if you make modifications to the engine you can tune the vvt to the correct location.
I would be interested in a lightweight flywheel and a number of electrical connectors for the engine senders... My engine did not include a wiring
harness and the connectors are all different between the 16v and the 20v --- But I would imagine that is going to be a stretch...
Kurt, you scare me.
I'm scared by Kurt also ... 
Sorry, I'm using the flywheel and parts of the harness, now chopped up for the MS harness.
In terms of setting up the VVT, that would certainly be the logical way to go about it.
-Steve
"Lightheadedness through quickness"
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