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opinions on the sylva phoenix

daniel mason - 15/2/13 at 08:27 PM

anyone have any info or opinions on the phoenix? if i eventually get into hillclimbing and sprinting, i am seriously interested in a phoenix! there is no possible way i would risk (or be able to afford to) compete in my caterham and think i could make a good proffit if i sold it.
any opinions welcome.particularly on handling/balance,i absolutely love the styling/bodywork! cheers all

sdh2903 - 15/2/13 at 08:59 PM

Only constructive thing I can say is I really like the fury/Phoenix and they are definitely on my "to build list".

You can't really be thinking about selling the catering van already?!

mookaloid - 15/2/13 at 09:01 PM

nice looking car but does the body make it significantly heavier? if it does then does it make it more slippery through the air at hill climb speeds? it's a bit of a trade off I think but on balance I'd rather not have the extra weight.

daniel mason - 15/2/13 at 09:20 PM

the caterham is awesome but i want to get into motorsport,and move house. caterham + those 2 is impossible!

Slimy38 - 15/2/13 at 09:30 PM

quote:
Originally posted by mookaloid
nice looking car but does the body make it significantly heavier? if it does then does it make it more slippery through the air at hill climb speeds? it's a bit of a trade off I think but on balance I'd rather not have the extra weight.

Quote from a kit car guide magazine;

quote:

The Phoenix was originally designed by Jeremy Phillips under his Sylva banner and was initially called the Mk4 Clubmans Striker. It comprised an all-enveloping body for the Striker chassis in a move prompted by the company's desire to capitalize on the racing success of the Striker in the 750 Motor Club's kit car championship as Jeremy knew a one-piece body would always be quicker than an op-wheel design and so it proved with the Clubmans car being 10 to 15 mph faster at the end of a decent straight over a cycle-winged Striker of identical power

Although I have no idea what a 'decent straight' is, and whether you'd actually get one on a hill climb?

daniel mason - 15/2/13 at 09:49 PM

interesting thanks

cerbera - 15/2/13 at 10:05 PM

I like mine

Alfa145 - 15/2/13 at 10:11 PM

They are nice lookers and surely a top choice for hill climbs. Only drawback is if you only have a slight off you could make an expensive mess of the body.

Before I got my Stylus I test drove a Phoenix with the 4AGZE supercharged toyota lump in it. If only may arse wasn't too fat to fit in it comfortably I'd have bought it there and then. Fantastic car.

daniel mason - 15/2/13 at 10:15 PM

what about weight with standard roll bar,no cage? zetec lor bike power

Dopdog - 15/2/13 at 10:20 PM

Wheres Jeff when you need him

matt_gsxr - 15/2/13 at 10:22 PM

Striker chassis, pretty bodywork.
Parts still available from Raw Striker who have taken on production.

Various body styles with subtle differences to front and rear.
Round tube chassis was a late development which was a bit lighter.

On fast circuits the aerodynamics make it quicker than a striker.

The other advantage is that you can hide an intercooler under the front bodywork, and package quite a lot of camping gear in the side-pods.

Matt

matt_gsxr - 15/2/13 at 10:36 PM

Weight wise mine was 476kg with a full tank and cage at SVA (GSXR1100 engine which is a bit porky compared to modern fare).
I got that down to 450 odd when I swapped to 13inch wheels and ACB10's.

A bit heavier now with a ARB's, turbo. But with a bike engine you won't be above 500kg.

Sam_68 - 15/2/13 at 10:42 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Alfa145
Only drawback is if you only have a slight off you could make an expensive mess of the body.

^^^ This is the conventional wisdom: there is negligible aerodynamic advantage over the 'open wheel' Striker version at hillclimb speeds, but neither is there any significant disadvantage from the extra weight of full bodywork.

... but there is less risk of damage from an 'off' with the Striker and some people claim to be able to place the car more accurately in corners when they can see the front wheels.

If you like the look of the Phoenix, however, I wouldn't get hung up on the disadvantages.

If you're talking about a 'genuine' Sylva (manufactured by Jeremy Phillips, not RAW), note that there have been several versions of the car: live axle and IRS, with 2 generations of bodywork, and the first generation of bodywork had two front ends; the 'standard' and the 'downforce' bonnet. It might be best to think twice if you're looking at a car with the 'downforce' bonnet because it's very prone to damage if you go off and the moulds are no longer available (you can convert to a 'standard' bonnet, but need a new mounting subframe as well as the bonnet itself).

The earlier cars also came with two variations in front suspension (inboard, with cut down Escort struts and outboard with Chevette uprights). The outboard version with the Chevette uprights actually has slightly better geometry and steering feel, IMO, but of course all the early cars were live axle, so on balance one of the later cars with IRS is probably the best to go for.

As with all kit cars, weight varies, but they're pretty light as 'Seven' type cars go... my live axle car with a Crossflow (probably 10-15 kilos lighter than a Zetec) and standard roll bar corner weighted at 509 kilos with no particular weight saving measures (iron diff nose and bellhousing, full sized battery, not-very-light 'Revolution' alloys etc.).

Compared to the Caterham, their biggest disadvantage on paper is that the chassis isn't very stiff - probably around half the stiffness of a current Caterham - but it doesn't seem to cause too many problems in practice.

[Edited on 15/2/13 by Sam_68]

Dopdog - 15/2/13 at 11:59 PM

"some people claim to be able to place the car more accurately in corners when they can see the front wheels."

well said this is why I loved my striker have driven a fury and had no idea where I was

jeffw - 16/2/13 at 07:39 AM

I'm impressed with the level of opinions on here from people who have, likely, not driven one.

The RGB championship, until recently, the hunting ground for the Phoenix and the Fury. Remember this was a championship you could have used any kit car variant and is run on all the main UK circuits (big and small) and yet.....there have been very few 7 copies and the championship was dominated by the Phoenix (and Fury of course). An RGB Fury can be built to 400-410Kg (I believe 400 is the weight limit) so I presume a Phoenix could be down to the same level.

Mine is a Zetec engined version (an actual Sylva) and has a live axle. The car weighs 560Kg with the Supercharger fitted. I don't know what the equivalent Striker would weigh but I guess there maybe 10-20Kg in bodywork differences. The car is geared for 165MPH and I've seen 145MPH at Snetterton (and still pulling) which suggests there is a distinct Aero advantage compared with a Striker. RAW actually put the Phoenix in a Windtunnel and the results where significantly better than a Striker.

If you where doing Autocross where you are in 1st or 2nd gear and spotting cones then the 7 would have an advantage. On anything that looks like a race track the Phoenix would be on a par and with anything over 110mph the 7 would lose out big time.

Sam_68 - 16/2/13 at 10:26 AM

quote:
Originally posted by jeffw I'm impressed with the level of opinions on here from people who have, likely, not driven one.

In fairness, of the eight people who have contributed to this thread, at least 5 make it clear that they own, or have owned, a Phoenix or closely related design, and the other three hardly contributed anything excessively controversial or opinionated!?

I owned my Phoenix (Striker Mk. IV if you're splitting hairs) for 15 years, have competed in hillclimbs in it (albeit not seriously), and have been interested/involved with hillclimbing for over 35 years, so I feel qualified to offer an opinion that it's swings and roundabouts with the aero benefit on UK hillclimbs: the full bodied cars have failed to show any advantage and certainly haven't shown any signs of dominating their classes as they did in 750 Club circuit racing. The aero advantage on circuits and roads is undoubtedly more significant though - mine showed a 15mph top speed advantage over my previous, similarly engined (Crossflow, circa 155bhp) Caterham, which seems to correlate with the quote that Slimy38 offered.

Hopefully now irrelevant, but there used to be a Regulation requiring full windscreen in the Roadgoing Specialist Production Cars class in hillclimbing, which meant that the Phoenix was placed in Sports Libre against some very fierce opposition. This rule has now been deleted from MSA regs and I'm fairly sure that all venues/championships have updated their rules to conform to the national, MSA class regulations, but it might be worth double-checking for whichever venue/championship you're thinking of competing in.

I'd want to see it on the corner weight scales before I believed that an RGB fury could weigh 400 kilos... I've personally not seen one that light, and while I'm not saying it couldn't be done, I think it would take a lot of effort and a lot of trick parts and so would hardly meet the OP's requirements of a cheap alternative to his Caterham - I think Matt_gxsr's figures of 450kg+ is a more realistic target for a BEC Phoenix.

The minimum weight limit in RGB, incidentally, is currently 530kg for a front engined car, including driver, so you'd have a much fatter bastard than even I am to not need substantial ballast on a 400 kilo car!

The sprint you provided a YouTube clip of has enormous straights, compared to most UK hillclimbs, so I don't think can be taken as typical of H&S in general... and I note that even then the speedo reading only once, very briefly, touched 100mph.

I've not done any sprinting (there are no shortage of Hills where I come from!), mind you, and I have to say that I'm impressed that you can navigate a course through cones at that sort of pace... it's so much easier when you have a ribbon of tarmac to follow, hemmed in by banks and armco!

jeffw - 16/2/13 at 11:49 AM

The example video was to show what a lot of sprints look like. As you say the aero advantage doesn't show on sprints like this and I am equal or slightly behind R500 Caterhams (mainly due to the bumps and my Live Axle). However....at Goodwood I am 3-4 secs in front of the Caterhams. We do 3 sprints at Goodwood in my championships.

This was a 97 sec run as I was lifting for the noise meters, the final run of the day was 90sec which is pretty quick around Goodwood. You can get an idea of the top speeds though, the 90sec run was 5-10MPH faster . I don't do hillclimbing so can't comment on that.

Just for clarity the speeds shows are GPS speed on the datalogger and this was in low boost (250BHP at the wheels). The car is now 300BHP at the wheels and should be able to get close to the FTD times at Goodwood when there are no single seaters.

[Edited on 16/2/13 by jeffw]

[Edited on 16/2/13 by jeffw]

Sam_68 - 16/2/13 at 01:37 PM

All well and good, but we need to maintain some perspective, I think - the OP is taking about a Sylva as a budget alternative to a Caterham Supersport, so he won't be setting out to beat R500's with a 300bhp turbo engine?

That said, you certainly won't find me criticising the Phoenix - it's just a question of whether the Striker would not offer a slightly more practical choice, at a budget level, than the full-bodied car?

I guess it might come down to where he is located, geographically, and hence whether it's mainly sprints or hills that he'll be competing on - if it's the former, the longer straights and the lack of anything harder than a traffic cone to bump into if you get it wrong might tip the balance in favour of the Phoenix?

But then, like I said... if you like the look of the Phoenix, that's a good enough excuse to favour it, anyway.

quote:
the final run of the day was 90sec which is pretty quick around Goodwood... I don't do hillclimbing so can't comment on that.

Google tells me that Goodwood is 2.4 miles in length so that'd mean you'd be averaging about 96mph? For comparison, the record for your class at Harewood Hillclimb, which used to be my local venue, stands at 58 seconds (to an open-wheel Dax Rush), which by my reckoning (the course is 0.9 miles long) works out about 52mph...

daniel mason - 16/2/13 at 02:08 PM

thanks sam. yeah, its a budget alternative im after which is good for track days,sprints,hills etc
my local venue is barbon which is short under 30 secs but i do go to harewood a fair bit. im located in north west near kendal and lancaster

jeffw - 16/2/13 at 02:19 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
All well and good, but we need to maintain some perspective, I think - the OP is taking about a Sylva as a budget alternative to a Caterham Supersport, so he won't be setting out to beat R500's with a 300bhp turbo engine?

quote:
the final run of the day was 90sec which is pretty quick around Goodwood... I don't do hillclimbing so can't comment on that.

Google tells me that Goodwood is 2.4 miles in length so that'd mean you'd be averaging about 96mph?

Supercharged not turbo'ed and 96MPH from a standing start.

jeffw - 16/2/13 at 02:31 PM

It has just dawned on me the Sam_68 is the same guy as on Pistonheads (who is now Lastpost). Daniel, if you want to discuss please U2U me otherwise I'm done on this thread.

Sam_68 - 16/2/13 at 02:34 PM

quote:
Originally posted by jeffwSupercharged not turbo'ed and 96MPH from a standing start.

OK, whatever. Lets call it forced induction and forget about it?

Hillclimbs are from a standing start as well.

My point wasn't to give you another opportunity to wave your willy, but to illustrate that average speeds are much lower on hillclimbs, so aerodynamic drag is less important.

procomp - 16/2/13 at 02:55 PM

Hi

If it is a motorsport variant your after then there is only one model to hunt down and use, The Stuart Taylor ( STM ) versions made specifically for competition use.( very few and rare ) As with all reference to the Furies and phoenix and strikers used with great success in the 750Mc Kitcars and RGB championships, They where all specials non of the highly successful ones are based on what you can buy direct from current manufacturers JPS RAW Fisher Etc Etc.

However if it is the shape / style you are liking then track down Rob Johnston at Cyanna cars. He is the only person who is currently manufacturing this style of car purpose built for competition use.

Cheers Matt

Slimy38 - 16/2/13 at 03:17 PM

quote:
Originally posted by procomp
However if it is the shape / style you are liking then track down Rob Johnston at Cyanna cars. He is the only person who is currently manufacturing this style of car purpose built for competition use.

Cheers Matt

I'll be heading to his doorstep when I am ready to fit the body, I saw the shell at last years Stoneleigh show and was very impressed;

http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=169964

I hope he'll still be making them when I finish my chassis!

matt_gsxr - 16/2/13 at 05:09 PM

quote:
Originally posted by procomp
Hi

If it is a motorsport variant your after then there is only one model to hunt down and use, The Stuart Taylor ( STM ) versions made specifically for competition use.( very few and rare ) As with all reference to the Furies and phoenix and strikers used with great success in the 750Mc Kitcars and RGB championships, They where all specials non of the highly successful ones are based on what you can buy direct from current manufacturers JPS RAW Fisher Etc Etc.

These are all round tube chassis. Not many around though.

phelpsa - 20/2/13 at 08:18 PM

quote:
Originally posted by procomp
Hi

If it is a motorsport variant your after then there is only one model to hunt down and use, The Stuart Taylor ( STM ) versions made specifically for competition use.( very few and rare ) As with all reference to the Furies and phoenix and strikers used with great success in the 750Mc Kitcars and RGB championships, They where all specials non of the highly successful ones are based on what you can buy direct from current manufacturers JPS RAW Fisher Etc Etc.

However if it is the shape / style you are liking then track down Rob Johnston at Cyanna cars. He is the only person who is currently manufacturing this style of car purpose built for competition use.

Cheers Matt

I believe the chassis was manufactured by Caged? Supposed to be the best out there.

However, for speed events it would be a bit dubious with the regs, as it is a different chassis of which they never made 20 in 12 consecutive months. That would technically place you in sports libre.

My personal opinion is much the same as Sam's. I do a good selection of hillclimbs and sprints and in Modified Specialist Production I have yet to see a full bodied car do well. Not to say they couldn't though.

TimC - 20/2/13 at 09:29 PM

Call Tim Gray Motorsport. Tim often knows where to find the desirable chassis'.

RK - 22/2/13 at 11:54 PM

Here's another uninformed view from someone who's never seen one on the move: they look great.

Secondly, any car that you compete in has to be considered potentially expendable, and by the time you trade in the 'Van and get something else, you could have (gasp!) had an off in the new one, but be out as much, or more money, overall, than if you'd kept the original car and pranged that one. Justifications, therefore, are not necessary, in my opinion!