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Light Weight Battery Alternative?
six mad - 26/10/13 at 06:42 PM

Stumbled across this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3x_kYq3mHM


Do you reckon the other batter is in the boot?

rf900rush - 26/10/13 at 07:57 PM

Ultra capacitors are used to supply high currents for a short time.

Often used along side batteries/ power supplies.

If the car does not start on the button you're stuffed.

SALAD - 26/10/13 at 07:58 PM

He posted an update too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8miq6sDy0wA

russbost - 28/10/13 at 08:08 AM

No advantage to using that over a normal Li Ion Po such as we sell, weight can't be significantly different (heaviest one we sell weighs only 1.5kg) & it's properly tried & tested technology from a massive manufacturer with proper R & D, not something bodged together in a shed! I seriously doubt that the technology he's using there is going to be any cheaper & far less reliable!

v8kid - 28/10/13 at 10:34 AM

quote:
Originally posted by russbost
No advantage to using that over a normal Li Ion Po such as we sell, weight can't be significantly different (heaviest one we sell weighs only 1.5kg) & it's properly tried & tested technology from a massive manufacturer with proper R & D, not something bodged together in a shed! I seriously doubt that the technology he's using there is going to be any cheaper & far less reliable!


I appreciate where you are coming from with your business Russ but the capacitor only weight was quoted at 0.5lb which is 1/6 of your Li Ion Po batteries so there is a significant weight saving. There may well be problems with capacity where there is a current drain when switched off hence adding the backup battery but would that affect a Locoster? Talking about things "bodged together in a shed" seems to be criticizing the whole locost movement (your customers?) who build cars in sheds!

The technology is well proven, they are used in wind turbines to power the pitch control and used in heavy trucks as a starting aid so I think you are doing Maxwell (the manufacturers) a bit of a disservice suggesting they do not have proper R&D!

Seems like a cracking locost idea to me. The only problem is why are they not available in the UK at the same price as the USA (£40)?

Cheers!

russbost - 28/10/13 at 11:32 AM

quote:
Originally posted by v8kid
quote:
Originally posted by russbost
No advantage to using that over a normal Li Ion Po such as we sell, weight can't be significantly different (heaviest one we sell weighs only 1.5kg) & it's properly tried & tested technology from a massive manufacturer with proper R & D, not something bodged together in a shed! I seriously doubt that the technology he's using there is going to be any cheaper & far less reliable!


I appreciate where you are coming from with your business Russ but the capacitor only weight was quoted at 0.5lb which is 1/6 of your Li Ion Po batteries so there is a significant weight saving. There may well be problems with capacity where there is a current drain when switched off hence adding the backup battery but would that affect a Locoster? Talking about things "bodged together in a shed" seems to be criticizing the whole locost movement (your customers?) who build cars in sheds!

The technology is well proven, they are used in wind turbines to power the pitch control and used in heavy trucks as a starting aid so I think you are doing Maxwell (the manufacturers) a bit of a disservice suggesting they do not have proper R&D!

Seems like a cracking locost idea to me. The only problem is why are they not available in the UK at the same price as the USA (£40)?

Cheers!


I'm not suggesting that the technology won't work in principle or that the basics of the technology haven't been proven out, but by the time you've added some form of backup battery (which surely you're going to need even to run say a clock or digital dash memory, or alarm) how much weight are you going to save over a proper battery made for the job that will weigh in at around 900g. Also, as you point out the capacitors may be available in the States at £40, but not over here, you then need to add a backup battery, cables & terminals (extra cost & weight) & then solder the whole thing together - having seen some peoples attempts at soldering that sounds like a recipe for disaster - that was my point about bodged together in a shed, also re the R & D - how much R & D do you think Maxwell have done on cars? I would suspect none!

Bear in mind that when I first took these batteries on around 15 months ago, loads of people on here said the technology wasn't proven & wouldn't work, now here we are over a year on & I have a return rate of less than 1%! Several buyers have come back for 2nd & third batteries for other vehicles

The one item you can save around 12 - 15kg over a car battery, around 4 - 6kg over a bike battery, or Odyssey,/Redtop or similar & it just fits & works, the other item is going to cost similar money, take up some of your valuable time assembling, save you perhaps another 0.5Kg & the day you leave your lights on for 10 mins, or the car simply doesn't start 1st or 2nd attempt you're going to be wondering why you bothered! The guy actually points out himself that jump starting another car has knackered his backup battery!

For a race car when every once is important I could perhaps see the point (providing you can plug a jump battery in if necessary) but for a road car - no thanks!! Even on a race car I would hesitate for a saving of 0.5kg as the day you stall going to the grid & it doesn't start it's just cost you a race!

RickRick - 28/10/13 at 11:42 AM

i doubt the backup battery will last very long, no control over the charging of it other than the max voltage from the alternator once the cars running, no balancing of the 4 or even 8 cells that make up that pack, i use lipos in rc cars, there brilliant, but quite easy to wreck, and you'd need something very high spec to put out the power needed to crank a car once the caps were dead i'm guessing the reason russ's batterys are quite expensive is the quality of the cells used, and some sort of charge control built in to the box

v8kid - 28/10/13 at 12:12 PM

quote:
Originally posted by russbost
quote:
Originally posted by v8kid
quote:
Originally posted by russbost
No advantage to using that over a normal Li Ion Po such as we sell, weight can't be significantly different (heaviest one we sell weighs only 1.5kg) & it's properly tried & tested technology from a massive manufacturer with proper R & D, not something bodged together in a shed! I seriously doubt that the technology he's using there is going to be any cheaper & far less reliable!


I appreciate where you are coming from with your business Russ but the capacitor only weight was quoted at 0.5lb which is 1/6 of your Li Ion Po batteries so there is a significant weight saving. There may well be problems with capacity where there is a current drain when switched off hence adding the backup battery but would that affect a Locoster? Talking about things "bodged together in a shed" seems to be criticizing the whole locost movement (your customers?) who build cars in sheds!

The technology is well proven, they are used in wind turbines to power the pitch control and used in heavy trucks as a starting aid so I think you are doing Maxwell (the manufacturers) a bit of a disservice suggesting they do not have proper R&D!

Seems like a cracking locost idea to me. The only problem is why are they not available in the UK at the same price as the USA (£40)?

Cheers!


I'm not suggesting that the technology won't work in principle or that the basics of the technology haven't been proven out, but by the time you've added some form of backup battery (which surely you're going to need even to run say a clock or digital dash memory, or alarm) how much weight are you going to save over a proper battery made for the job that will weigh in at around 900g. Also, as you point out the capacitors may be available in the States at £40, but not over here, you then need to add a backup battery, cables & terminals (extra cost & weight) & then solder the whole thing together - having seen some peoples attempts at soldering that sounds like a recipe for disaster - that was my point about bodged together in a shed, also re the R & D - how much R & D do you think Maxwell have done on cars? I would suspect none!

Bear in mind that when I first took these batteries on around 15 months ago, loads of people on here said the technology wasn't proven & wouldn't work, now here we are over a year on & I have a return rate of less than 1%! Several buyers have come back for 2nd & third batteries for other vehicles

The one item you can save around 12 - 15kg over a car battery, around 4 - 6kg over a bike battery, or Odyssey,/Redtop or similar & it just fits & works, the other item is going to cost similar money, take up some of your valuable time assembling, save you perhaps another 0.5Kg & the day you leave your lights on for 10 mins, or the car simply doesn't start 1st or 2nd attempt you're going to be wondering why you bothered! The guy actually points out himself that jump starting another car has knackered his backup battery!

For a race car when every once is important I could perhaps see the point (providing you can plug a jump battery in if necessary) but for a road car - no thanks!! Even on a race car I would hesitate for a saving of 0.5kg as the day you stall going to the grid & it doesn't start it's just cost you a race!


Hi Russ,

I think your batteries are fantastic and I hear your points of view. They are certainly relevant under some circumstances - I was only trying to give a balanced view.

When there is any new innovation the established players are going to see it as a threat and respond accordingly - IIRC you had similar criticisms to the ones you are making when you successfully introduced Li Ion Po batteries to our market.

However to me there seems to be a place for Supercapacitors in weight saving on Locost cars. It it is a good place or not needs objective evaluation.

I watched the video, briefly checked Maxwells site ( they DO make starter packs for HGV's) and did some quick sums and for a vehicle that has light weight as a priority they make sense to me.

For a no nonsense commuting vehicle you are spot on - but I'm not sure they are that concerned with weight. Also for a weekend fun car the hassle of having no power, for the reasons you outlined, could well be a turnoff for probably the majority - I don't know I'm guessing at that.

However for a hobbyist they could be fun. And the disadvantages are not as bad as you paint. A lot of track/race cars already have separate plug in starter batteries, and most of them are not likely to leave their headlights switched on! Also the capacity of the smaller of the two batteries was 1400As before it dropped below 10V which is more than enough for quite a few engine starts.

I'm also sure the people you saw whose soldering was rubbish were not Locost builders I do like to think we are reasonably competent at most car related tasks

You got a fair crack of the whip when you started I just think it should be be extended to others.

Cheers1

rdodger - 28/10/13 at 12:18 PM

As the youtube guy points out you really need the battery back up, he is going to add low voltage protection, he should really have something to regulate the capacitors.

I love and admire his inventiveness but for people like me by the time you have all the bits to make it something like reliable it is going to cost close to one of Russ's batteries.

I think I would rather have the battery rather than some stuff in a sock!

How does a wool sock stand up in a crash? Any chance the terminals will hit the chassis?

russbost - 28/10/13 at 12:34 PM

quote:
Originally posted by rdodger
As the youtube guy points out you really need the battery back up, he is going to add low voltage protection, he should really have something to regulate the capacitors.

I love and admire his inventiveness but for people like me by the time you have all the bits to make it something like reliable it is going to cost close to one of Russ's batteries.

I think I would rather have the battery rather than some stuff in a sock!

How does a wool sock stand up in a crash? Any chance the terminals will hit the chassis?


Ha, Ha you made the point far better than I did!

FuryRebuild - 28/10/13 at 01:41 PM

Why has no-one mentioned the chickens? It's actually chicken powered.

v8kid - 28/10/13 at 02:21 PM

quote:
Originally posted by FuryRebuild
Why has no-one mentioned the chickens? It's actually chicken powered.


Julian Thrussell - 12/11/13 at 01:09 PM

I'd be worried about frying some sensitive electronics.

v8kid - 12/11/13 at 01:27 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Julian Thrussell
I'd be worried about frying some sensitive electronics.


Why? I can't think of a reason offhand. The voltage should be quite stable - that is no spikes although it will decay exponentially with power drain. There will be a higher Iscc which could give higher induced voltages if you short the battery but if you do that the battery lifespan is goosed anyhow (so you don't want to do it!).

If anything it should be a more stable voltage when the alternator is running as it will absorb spikes more efficiently.

Having said that I haven't tried it but am becoming more intrigued and might play with one and do some tests in the lab

Cheers!