Nick DV
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| posted on 15/10/11 at 11:41 AM |
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A ' RGB Sevens Only' Race Series
I have followed the RGB series from it's early days and it's interesting to see how much it has changed. The cars were primarily seven
type cars, but with natural progression and developement, the bodied cars such as Furys and Phoenix's featured more and more. Now there are all
manner of 'bodied' cars, which I think this s great for RGB.
The downside is that the seven type cars have become less competitive - not knocking anyone or any car - but the laws of physics mean that bodied cars
will be much faster as their aerodynamics are not those of a brick (read seven  ).
I think it would be really good if a RGB sevens only series was run over here as they do in N. Ireland. http://www.nisevensracing.co.uk/ I think it
would bring a lot more RGB sevens out and onto the track, and should provide close, competitive racing. Would even do this on myself!!
What does anyone else think?
Cheers, Nick 
"The force will be with you, always!"
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RK
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| posted on 15/10/11 at 12:09 PM |
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There is an argument going on in Ontario right now, concerning a new manufacturer-backed, production-based sedan series, using Honda Fits, Mazda
2's et al. The argument against is the high cost for such low speeds, and of course, the final numbers of entrants. Will there ever be enough to
make it sustainable? In your case, are people still building enough RGB Locosts to make it worthwhile? If there ever was such a thing here in Canada,
I'd do it for sure. Building a non-roadgoing little rocket, with a light, modern engine, would be great, but only if I got to race against other
similar cars, not ones who may not see you very well, and don't mind the odd bump, hence increasing the danger exponentially.
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Jon Ison
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| posted on 15/10/11 at 12:12 PM |
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agree, have one sat here in garage right now that I would consider entering, its gone the may of lots of motorsports do, the grid is littered with
purpose built cars making the costs go only one way.
Would be worth considering a class that rings close to the name, Road Going Bike Engine as in a class for 7's complete with tax and current MOT
? There is a huge pool of legible cars out there for such a grid allready built and ready to go.
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RK
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| posted on 15/10/11 at 12:24 PM |
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You could even get Procomp or someone to offer a proper FIA cage to all those who don't have them. Lots of business for him, convenient and cost
effective for everyone else.
However, our autoslalom series in my city is supposed to have only road going cars entered, though I, and others, still bring stripped out
BMW's, Locosts, Formula Cars etc out to compete. It's a private event, on private property (a very large parking lot of the local
professional hockey team) so organisers don't enforce this road going aspect.
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Nick DV
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| posted on 15/10/11 at 12:43 PM |
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Jon, the only thing with this is that I would have it road standard, ie lights etc. but not taxed and MOT'd - which would make me unable to
enter! Mine is built and ready to go, but I will never IVA mine. I'd just have it as RGB for sevens only.
quote:
Originally posted by Jon Ison
agree, have one sat here in garage right now that I would consider entering, its gone the may of lots of motorsports do, the grid is littered with
purpose built cars making the costs go only one way.
Would be worth considering a class that rings close to the name, Road Going Bike Engine as in a class for 7's complete with tax and current MOT
? There is a huge pool of legible cars out there for such a grid allready built and ready to go.
Forgot to add this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXfKG3mGquc&list=FLF8Gl8kVH12oiEDnJbAdvEA&index=1
Cheers, Nick
"The force will be with you, always!"
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RK
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| posted on 15/10/11 at 12:50 PM |
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I loved this part "the more aerodynamic, car engined Ginetta, just walks away from Jimmy" Don't hear that very often!
The vid clearly proves the point.
[Edited on 15/10/11 by RK]
[Edited on 15/10/11 by RK]
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Ian-B
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| posted on 15/10/11 at 01:34 PM |
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The problem currently is too many series / championships / classes, I really struggle to see the need for another. In RGB the 2 current classes are
Front engined and Rear engined, as recently as overall 2009 the championship was won a '7' style car. Whilst the 7 may have an aero
disadvantage it has the benefit of not being burdened with a large mass of body work at the vehicles extremities, the worst possible place to have
mass. There are currently seven only championships like CSCC magnificent sevens if you don't want to compete with 'aero' cars.
Ian
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Nick DV
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| posted on 15/10/11 at 01:55 PM |
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Not sure I agree. Where are the seven style cars coming now? I know tyouy have the Magnificent Sevens, but I was on about purely RGB sevens.
Cheers, Nick
quote:
Originally posted by Ian-B
The problem currently is too many series / championships / classes, I really struggle to see the need for another. In RGB the 2 current classes are
Front engined and Rear engined, as recently as overall 2009 the championship was won a '7' style car. Whilst the 7 may have an aero
disadvantage it has the benefit of not being burdened with a large mass of body work at the vehicles extremities, the worst possible place to have
mass. There are currently seven only championships like CSCC magnificent sevens if you don't want to compete with 'aero' cars.
Ian
"The force will be with you, always!"
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Ian-B
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| posted on 15/10/11 at 02:17 PM |
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Highest place seven was 5th out 23 class F cars in 2011 chamionship, thats with only 3 sevens entered in class F. The driver behind the wheel makes a
big difference, if you want to go for championship wins a full bodied car is likely to be your best bet, but a good seven in the same hands is
unlikely to be far behind. To the best of my knoweldge 2009 was the last time a really quick driver drove a seven in RGB.
Ian
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Nick DV
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| posted on 15/10/11 at 04:18 PM |
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I agree that the driver makes a big difference - that counts me out - and in RGB I also agree that full bodied is the way to go.
Cheers, Nick
"The force will be with you, always!"
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eddie99
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| posted on 15/10/11 at 05:22 PM |
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Magnificent Sevens is an excellent championship in which i will be competing next year. Also has the class for BEC's. No point having an extra
championship when it already exists with strong grids.
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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MK9R
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| posted on 15/10/11 at 06:16 PM |
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See where you are coming from, but one of the beautys and attractions of RGB is keeping the rules as simple as possible, the class structure of just
F and R works brilliantly, its simple for the spectator to see what is happening (something other formula struggle with, and was also a draw back of
the old RGB 3 class structure). A 7 can be competetive but it takes more work and you have to get it set up right and bang on the weight limit. And
with the new more open aero rules in class F I'm sure some fettling would get it right up there.
Ben is the westy who finished 7th this year with his little old carb blade engine (old class C), he is upgrading to a new 08 blade for next season so
this will be a great test for the 7 shape, but I have no doubt he will be up there next year. John C and tim G have proved a 7 can do it in class C
Cheers Austen
RGB car number 9
www.austengreenway.co.uk
www.automatedtechnologygroup.co.uk
www.trackace.co.uk
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gixermark
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| posted on 16/10/11 at 09:21 PM |
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having competed in the NI Sevens series, I can say - its damn good fun !! our regs were more or less like the olf RGB class C, but sevens only and
allowed any bike engine up to 929cc (basically allowing the newer injection motors in too) we all ran to 560KG rather than RGB 530KG, and on Toyo 888
Med.
The racing is good..
I guess RGB has just progressed over the years - as they had the numbers, interest... and noth manufacturers and hobiests interested in
designing/building bespoke cars which is pretty cool too
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progers
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| posted on 21/10/11 at 12:13 PM |
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Hi All,
I am a member of the RGB committee and was part of the group that defined the current regs. What we have strived for is a simple class structure that
makes it as open for various types of car to join and while ensuring it remains cost effective to race. Hence we run 2 classes (front and rear
engined) with standard engines (no tuning), cheap Yoko 048 tyres etc to try and keep a cap on peoples budget. We allow people to experiment with
splitter and spoilers, but no wings are allowed.
I appreciate that seven type cars are not the most aerodynamically efficient shape, but this typically accounts for tenths of a second a lap. As noted
above, the biggest differentiator is driver skill and you can still be very competitive in a 7 car and have great fun racing at reasonable cost. Sure
people can spend £20K + on an car "to win" but Derek Jones is running top 3 in many races in a Fisher Fury with an 04 Honda engine that is
20Kgs overweight. It cost him 7K to buy, he has just developed it very well and is a very skilled driver. As has been pointed out previously, Tim Gray
won the championship in a blade powered striker, and even put it on pole at Cadwell Park in 2009 against much more powerful machinery.
Ultimately an aerodynamic car should be quicker (with the same driver) but the difference between the two will be much less than you will find in
series like Mag sevens where you will be competing against people with tuned Duratec engines pumping out > 250bhp (at £12k + a pop).
"Aero" gain (in a 75mm ride height car) is much less of an issue than competing with people who have 50-100bhp more than you because they
can afford to tune their engines and run new slicks every meeting. That kind of cheque book racing doesn't happen in RGB.
If you are not expecting to be a front runner, it would be much more enjoyable to run in the "mid pack" with other similar spec cars and
just enjoy the racing for what it is than running in a series with lots of different classes. RGB is also a very sociable group, we try to be as
inclusive as possible and regularly have BBQs and social events to keep us together as a group. We also have tyre draws (worth £200) and/or power
commander draws (worth £250+) at most race weekends thanks to our sponsors.
Sorry for the length of the advert, but discounting RGB just because you run a seven irritates me! If I didn't have the opportunity to
co-develop my current car with its designer, I would probably have entered class F with a seven type car just to prove that you can be competitive and
run at the front of Class F and challenge for podiums. Its not all about winning, its as much about getting the best out of yourself and the car
- Paul
[Edited on 21/10/11 by progers]
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amalyos
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| posted on 21/10/11 at 02:12 PM |
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As an new RGB driver (this year) who competes with a seven, I second Paul's comments.
I've had a great year (appart from a little error in the wet at Silverstone), and agree that it's all about the driver, and car set up.
I came into RGB following a lot of trackday experience, and 5 years of rallying, so considered myself a good driver, but how wrong I was.
Don't expect that putting all sevens together will improve your chances of winning. Get 2-3 years competing in the mid pack and enjoy yourself.
I'm still battling with Ben in his Westfield, and he's got 25-30 BHP less than me, but he has a years more racing to offset the power
loss.
I've still got a lot to improve in the wet, but in the dry Dave and myself will be up with the furys next year, look out Austen
Long live the Seven, come and see us at the Birkett this weekend.
http://stevembuild.blogspot.com
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MK9R
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| posted on 21/10/11 at 02:17 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by amalyos
Dave and myself will be up with the furys next year, look out Austen
Bring it on, GIRLS!!!! ;p
Cheers Austen
RGB car number 9
www.austengreenway.co.uk
www.automatedtechnologygroup.co.uk
www.trackace.co.uk
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Nick DV
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| posted on 21/10/11 at 02:39 PM |
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Paul,
I totally agree with what you and others say about RGB. I was NOT discounting RGB at all, so don't be irritated, and I wasn't making the
suggestion because I wanted a race series to be competitive in - I doubt I'll ever race - I merely said if you had a seven only series it may
get more people bringing theirs onto the track!
Cheesr, Nick
quote:
Originally posted by progers
Hi All,
I am a member of the RGB committee and was part of the group that defined the current regs. What we have strived for is a simple class structure that
makes it as open for various types of car to join and while ensuring it remains cost effective to race. Hence we run 2 classes (front and rear
engined) with standard engines (no tuning), cheap Yoko 048 tyres etc to try and keep a cap on peoples budget. We allow people to experiment with
splitter and spoilers, but no wings are allowed.
I appreciate that seven type cars are not the most aerodynamically efficient shape, but this typically accounts for tenths of a second a lap. As noted
above, the biggest differentiator is driver skill and you can still be very competitive in a 7 car and have great fun racing at reasonable cost. Sure
people can spend £20K + on an car "to win" but Derek Jones is running top 3 in many races in a Fisher Fury with an 04 Honda engine that is
20Kgs overweight. It cost him 7K to buy, he has just developed it very well and is a very skilled driver. As has been pointed out previously, Tim Gray
won the championship in a blade powered striker, and even put it on pole at Cadwell Park in 2009 against much more powerful machinery.
Ultimately an aerodynamic car should be quicker (with the same driver) but the difference between the two will be much less than you will find in
series like Mag sevens where you will be competing against people with tuned Duratec engines pumping out > 250bhp (at £12k + a pop).
"Aero" gain (in a 75mm ride height car) is much less of an issue than competing with people who have 50-100bhp more than you because they
can afford to tune their engines and run new slicks every meeting. That kind of cheque book racing doesn't happen in RGB.
If you are not expecting to be a front runner, it would be much more enjoyable to run in the "mid pack" with other similar spec cars and
just enjoy the racing for what it is than running in a series with lots of different classes. RGB is also a very sociable group, we try to be as
inclusive as possible and regularly have BBQs and social events to keep us together as a group. We also have tyre draws (worth £200) and/or power
commander draws (worth £250+) at most race weekends thanks to our sponsors.
Sorry for the length of the advert, but discounting RGB just because you run a seven irritates me! If I didn't have the opportunity to
co-develop my current car with its designer, I would probably have entered class F with a seven type car just to prove that you can be competitive and
run at the front of Class F and challenge for podiums. Its not all about winning, its as much about getting the best out of yourself and the car
- Paul
[Edited on 21/10/11 by progers]
"The force will be with you, always!"
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progers
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| posted on 21/10/11 at 04:34 PM |
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Hi Nick,
No offence taken, just me having a rant!
In some respects it would be nice to have a sevens only BEC class, but it takes alot of commitments from drivers for any series to be established. As
a min you need 15 entries just to break even these days. At the moment there are too many series with too few entrants so we need to keep things
simple for now.
However, in the future RGB could progress to a point (if numbers are large enough) where we could have a split grid where we have separate F and R
races. Hopefully an F only race would encourage a few more 7's out of the woodwork. After then, it will be down to driver driven demand i.e. the
evolution of Rules will be driven by the RGB driver community.
Cheers
Paul
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Nick DV
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| posted on 21/10/11 at 04:56 PM |
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Hi Paul,
Again, I agree with you and it could well change in the future. Anyway, I look forward to another good RGB season in 2010
Cheers, Nick
"The force will be with you, always!"
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danny keenan
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| posted on 21/10/11 at 05:33 PM |
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i think this would be a good idea for and all sevens rgb race.
paul if the A class had no time limit on it. i would have been able to fetch four more cars on to the grid next year.
is there anything you could do to have a rule change.
thanks danny
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progers
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| posted on 22/10/11 at 05:15 PM |
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Hi Danny,
We deliberated long and hard over the recent class changes and what to do with the >1000cc motors was probably the most contentious part. Now that
we have made that change, we need a period of stability in the regs so that people can plan ahead and make choices that are not going to be made
redundant by another change in the rules.
Unfortunately this will exclude some potential entrants but we expect that this will be more than offset by an influx of new people. Signs are good, I
know of around 10 people planning to join us next year, including several ex kit car racers and a couple of locost guys (including champion Scott
Mittel). The new simpler class structure seems to have been a major attraction.
As a matter of interest, we have found that the modern 1000cc motors in our cars are actually faster than the Busa's and ZX12 powered versions
used the year before. My GSXR1000 car is certainly faster since I replaced the dry sumped ZX12r engine I had last year. Maybe your contacts would
contemplate an engine swap? Those Busa's fetch good money on the secondhand market so hopefully it won't be an expensive change.
On another note, I was really pleased you are developing a new car for Ian Kempson. I hope the development goes well and I will look forward to seeing
it next year. If you happen to choose a GSXR1000 K7/8 as your powerplant, drop me a line and I can pass on a few tricks on how to get the most out of
the motor All legal of course
Cheers
Paul
[Edited on 22/10/11 by progers]
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danny keenan
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| posted on 22/10/11 at 06:52 PM |
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u2u sent paul
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