franky
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| posted on 31/7/13 at 12:07 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by cloudy
quote:
Originally posted by franky
If I was being honest, you're selling a wheel with a fairly cheap tablet and some nice software, as a package you should make it £6-700 tops
or less. There's always offers on the other stuff and even at this you might struggle.
Why not sell a mount to fit a particular range of wheels and just the software? I like what you're doing but I think it'd be a push to
pay £1k on it.
Keep at it though
I'm truly surprised at your impression on costings - but that's why I posted, so will try and address that:
The N7000 galaxy note is still around £300 retail, it's certainly NOT a cheap tablet! I would be having to work through how to supply these for
less - refurb might be an option
The software represents over 6 months of my time and some 10,000 lines of code, plus all of the hardware PCB development!
QR boss costs £280 + VAT
Buying a steering wheel anywhere else is going to cost over £100 - this is custom made...
The AMP connectors on the control box cost £50 a hit...
As you can see there's no way I could get it to £700, I suspect I'm selling myself short even at £1000, but hoping if the phone could be
sourced as refurbed then it's doable...
Thats not how everyone sees it though, thats my point. You should build it though, then take it from there. It looks great.
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Tris
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| posted on 31/7/13 at 12:12 PM |
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Racetech now have the Dash2 pro for £600 (+VAT) which i guess most compares to this.
But once you add the extra's though (Racetech are a bit like certain Germain Car makers with their options lists !) your looking at an all in
cost of at least £800, and thats not a colour display, nor includes the wheel or the boss or some of the functions
Personally i think the £1k price point is ok as long as the product support is there (something which racetech have been good with for myself).
Offering it as a kit i think is also the best way to go, so if someone can source a galaxy note cheap off ebay then they can. Or if they just want to
glue the Note to their dashboard and forget about the wheel then they can too.
I have an electronics background so the idea of having a product like this interests me more than buying something off the shelf.
Cheers
Tris
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cloudy
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| posted on 31/7/13 at 12:13 PM |
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Yep, completely understand where you are coming from, taking it all on board!
The kit idea might have legs...
[Edited on 31/7/13 by cloudy]
www.warnercars.com
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Hector.Brocklebank
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| posted on 31/7/13 at 12:17 PM |
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Cant you check the specs on some of the Chinese phones which work out at half the price.
I have included a link to one I have been running myself over the last 6/7 month with NO problems, the plus side for me is it can dual sim cards so i
can use it as my internet dongle with a dedicated data sim when I am travelling, and if you were buying in bulk you would get a decent discount. Or
have a look at what else is available on that site that might suit at a lower price point.
5" Android Phone
[Edited on 31/7/2013 by Hector.Brocklebank]
Some people can never handle the truth and always try to shoot the messenger instead of taking an honest look in the mirror (its always easier to
blame another than to face reality), but secretly they wish they could grow a pair and be the messenger !!!
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cloudy
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| posted on 31/7/13 at 12:23 PM |
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My worry is I've had two cheap android tablets - one was unstable and one gave up after a few weeks of use!
That said, I know a lot of people do very well with them, and might be worth a go, the one linked looks good - are you able to get a fast charge
kernel for it?
www.warnercars.com
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matt_gsxr
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| posted on 31/7/13 at 03:39 PM |
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James,
Good to hear you are still busy and making pretty things.
The problem with this forum is that we mostly started here because we wanted to do it ourselves on the cheap.
I bet you would get a different response from the "spend it, don't make it" groups (caterham/elise types).
Personally I'd struggle to justify spending £1000 in one go.
Regarding costs, the £280+VAT for the QR is a big chunk. I guess this is because it carries some cabling etc, but it might be an area where you could
save cost. Cutting costs on the tablet is possible but a bad idea, going with a biggest supplier should ensure spare parts into the reasonable future
and decent quality (unlike the super budget offerings).
One last thought, if this incorporated Dave's Megasquirt logging functionality (scudderfish) then it would be even better, although I
don't think it would extend your market as it is a niche on a niche.
Look forward to seeing more of your new car.
Matt
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cloudy
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| posted on 31/7/13 at 03:45 PM |
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Thanks Matt,
Have been quiet on the forum, but only because I've been working hard - almost all the bodwork patterns are milled now - heck of a job 
Yep the expensive parts are the phone and the QR boss - I guess supply your own for either of those would work...
www.warnercars.com
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Hector.Brocklebank
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| posted on 31/7/13 at 03:46 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by cloudy
My worry is I've had two cheap android tablets - one was unstable and one gave up after a few weeks of use!
That said, I know a lot of people do very well with them, and might be worth a go, the one linked looks good - are you able to get a fast charge
kernel for it?
That one i linked to, came rooted and on a custom kernel, charging from literally dead to full in just over an hour which i thought was pretty speedy,
unless you are speaking about something else then sorry i cannot answer you.
I can only comment on my useage of this model, on 4.2 it has been rock solid, the ui has crashed once but I think it was more that i had left a shed
load of apps open all running at the same time, i since put in an app to stop that happening again.
Some people can never handle the truth and always try to shoot the messenger instead of taking an honest look in the mirror (its always easier to
blame another than to face reality), but secretly they wish they could grow a pair and be the messenger !!!
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cloudy
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| posted on 31/7/13 at 03:48 PM |
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Easy way to test is to search for the fast charge app in the play store - that will tell you whether it's supported or not....
There are two charge modes in android - AC and USB, when using a charger AC charge will allow over 1A - USB mode as standard means 500ma is all
that's available (unless you enable fast charge on usb) There is a part of the OTG standard which lets a device report itself as an OTG host
and an AC charger - but it's rarely implemented by phone manufacturers
James
[Edited on 31/7/13 by cloudy]
www.warnercars.com
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Hector.Brocklebank
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| posted on 31/7/13 at 03:52 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by matt_gsxr
The problem with this forum is that we mostly started here because we wanted to do it ourselves on the cheap.
I bet you would get a different response from the "spend it, don't make it" groups (caterham/elise types).
Matt
A very very valid point, but sometimes making things (or trying to make things) fails because of the sad fact that some peoples desire outweighs their
abilities to achieve what they want, when really at times it can actually be cheaper to admit you need help and buy ready made (for certain items)
before the cost of attempting (and failing) the task spirals out of control
Some people can never handle the truth and always try to shoot the messenger instead of taking an honest look in the mirror (its always easier to
blame another than to face reality), but secretly they wish they could grow a pair and be the messenger !!!
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eddie99
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| posted on 31/7/13 at 05:54 PM |
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I think the price is about right if its a smart, good well developed unit. Could be very keen!
http://www.elitemotorsporteng.co.uk/
Twitter: @Elitemotoreng
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Elite-Motorsport-Engineering/153409081394323
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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jeffw
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| posted on 1/8/13 at 04:32 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Tris
Racetech now have the Dash2 pro for £600 (+VAT) which i guess most compares to this.
The big advantage of the Race Technology Dash2 is the display which can be read in any lighting conditions and this is the reason it is still LCD
monochrome display. My experience of smartphones in bright sunlight suggests this will be a big issue.
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rodgling
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| posted on 1/8/13 at 01:39 PM |
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Looks very nice but would think that GPS-based lap-timing, predictive lap, etc (as per cheaper Racetech, ETB products) is something people would be
looking for? I know this would be a key feature for me.
Also, what is tablet durability like when mounted in a car? Have you done 10k miles without the tablet breaking yet?
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cloudy
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| posted on 1/8/13 at 02:14 PM |
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I need to assess the durability in prototype - sure, but I've had a galaxy note bashing around in my pocket for nearly 2 years without any
issues, so when encased in a protective housing it shouldn't present many more issues IMO
The lap timing + prediction is also doable (I intended to at some point) - all the data is there. I'd need to look into the required algorithms
- I presume logically it builds a track map on lap 1, a marker button defines the start line - then compares your current position against your lap
time at that position last time round - not sure if it's as easy as that or whether there's more going on...
James
www.warnercars.com
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rodgling
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| posted on 1/8/13 at 02:22 PM |
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My suspicion is that car vibration is both higher frequency and higher amplitude than your pocket, so quite a different kettle of worms. I guess you
can only really find out if the hardware is up to it by testing.
Lap timing... it probably is basically that, but I bet there's lots of subtle bits. Like, what if you drop connection for a few seconds? Can you
roughly fill in the gap with accelerometer data (very hard if the wheel is rotating). Are there difficulties with limited GPS resolution? Etc.
Plus, once you've done that, the next step is to be able to render nice video overlays and provide basic analysis tools like ETB, racetec, etc
do. It's not a small task from a software point of view, at least, not to do it well. And people won't be happy if the development cost is
reflected in the price... lots of people seem to think it will just be hardware costs plus £20 profit...
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Proby
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| posted on 1/8/13 at 02:26 PM |
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Very very interesting project. Nice work. It's a lot of money to spend in one go for some of us, but I completely see where the approx costing
has come from.
Visit GraphicMonster
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cloudy
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| posted on 1/8/13 at 02:34 PM |
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Sorry I should have mentioned video overlays already done and working! - I thought about writing the software, but seemed better to leverage existing
software - I've written an import module for http://www.dashware.net/ so it works natively. It also provides some basic lap analysis
functions...
I'd probably write a smoothing algorithm on your current delta time, so at least a single spurious reading won't throw that out - The
accelerometer data is from an ADXL345 hard mounted in the control box - so no issues with wheel turning! You certainly could fill in the lost data
GPS in most phone and certainly the note is limited to 1Hz - I may add optional internal 10/20Hz GPS, but again it adds to the cost...
James
www.warnercars.com
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Agriv8
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| posted on 1/8/13 at 02:35 PM |
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looks good you have to admine the technical know how of some of the bods on here .
I am going to add as wish lists ( selling Points )
> Text GPRS location ( stolen vehicle / traker type system )
and two for a real ( top end unit )
> camera input * 2 record to sd card ? ( auto overlay GPRS data )
> tyre Presure monitor
Keep us posted Agriv8
Taller than your average Guy !
Management is like a tree of monkeys. - Those at the top look down and see a tree full of smiling faces. BUT Those at the bottom look up and see a
tree full of a*seholes .............
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cloudy
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| posted on 1/8/13 at 02:44 PM |
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I like the stolen vehicle idea! A simple text with password to the car could have it report it's current position - that would take 10 mins to
code up, and even better as long as it's within the set sleep time before shutdown it would work when the car is off...
[Edited on 1/8/13 by cloudy]
www.warnercars.com
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DarrenW
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| posted on 1/8/13 at 08:13 PM |
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Great idea, looks fantastic. Well done.
Couple of things to consider if trying to turn an innovation into a commercial venture.
Reliability / warranty, you don't want these things failing in the hands of enthusiasts who may not be as savvy as you on looking after such
things.
Product liability insurance, it can be bloody expensive.
There are probs loads of other things too.i think you are bang on trying to think what people will be prepared to spend and who the target market is.
That said, unless you are going to sell good numbers and can tool up for a reasonable cost then you may find your profit is so minimal that it hardly
becomes worth it. Defo continue to develop your own and get some testing in. Might be better to get a manufacturer interested rather than make
yourself though. You may also have some innovative features that can be incorporated into other already available products.
Slight word of warning, if you were thinking of some sort of patent protection for any unique aspects, do not put the ideas into the public domain
before they are protected. I'm no expert but sure you can't get protection once you post on a forum such as this.
I'm in awe of your ability to develop this idea. Fantastic skill and I hope you are successful with it.
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designer
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| posted on 2/8/13 at 10:30 AM |
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Excellent idea.
BUT, I would do it with a dash mount initially to make it removable. This would set the initial cost a lot less and open it up to a bigger market.
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steve m
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| posted on 2/8/13 at 01:44 PM |
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"Excellent idea. BUT, I would do it with a dash mount initially to make it removable. This would set the initial cost a lot less and open it up
to a bigger market"
Exactly my thoughts on reading this post, as most of us have Iphones/Galaxy/android, what would it involve to create an app, that could be scrolled
through various engine management systems, and speed etc, assuming its not been done already
I personly would not want a revolving speedo in my steering wheel!
Steve
Thats was probably spelt wrong, or had some grammer, that the "grammer police have to have a moan at
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cloudy
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| posted on 2/8/13 at 01:58 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by designer
Excellent idea.
BUT, I would do it with a dash mount initially to make it removable. This would set the initial cost a lot less and open it up to a bigger market.
The trouble is this needs another set of prototypes and another set of moulds making, would increase the cost rather than reduce! There is a
possibility it could be opened up to just supplying the control box, buttons & software leaving it up to the user where/how they mount the phone
and buttons - would that work better?
James
www.warnercars.com
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peter030371
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| posted on 4/8/13 at 03:52 PM |
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I think the market has space for a lo-cost QR wheel mounted display with integrated controls. If you want another digital dash for your dash then
dozens of these are already available including Android apps 
What the op has come up with is about 1/3rd the price of the current offerings from the likes of PI and I for one would love to have one
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cjwood23
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| posted on 7/8/13 at 09:40 AM |
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That looks great!
Price doesn't sound too unreasonable (I'm guessing you could easily spend £1k on a digi dash, wheel, QR and switches) - but would need to
be proven product with good back up/tech support.
Couple of questions though:
How would this be IVA complaint with regard to padding and a non-resetable odometer?
______________________
Chris
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