bi22le
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| posted on 7/10/13 at 10:21 PM |
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I dont see F1 the pinnicle of motorsport and I dont think it should be expected to be.
For me its the technical and engineering behind F1 I enjoy.
Regulations have been put in place for a reason. We made overly fast circuit cars years ago and look what happened. .
They are capped at the lap times and get restricted in different way. Ridged tyres and technical lines are swapped and changed.
F1 is still very relivent. Many automotive firsts are from F1 and drip feed rown to road cars.
If they made it free for all then do you think red bull would design a car that allowed anyone to pass? Let alone gaurenteed death from crashing at
180mph from a hair pin!!!
Track days ARE the best thing since sliced bread, until I get a supercharger that is!
Please read my ring story:
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/13/viewthread.php?tid=139152&page=1
Me doing a sub 56sec lap around Brands Indy. I need a geo set up! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHksfvIGB3I
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ChrisLeary
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| posted on 7/10/13 at 11:35 PM |
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I will watch the F1 if there is nothing else on, the cars interest me because of the technical side of things, but the racing is pants! I think the
introduction of DRS and KERS did increase the amount of overtaking, but it also makes it seem like it's not 'real' racing.
I went to Silverstone to watch the BTCC the weekend before last, and for £26, the racing and the general experience was fantastic. I had a stroll
round the paddock (pretty sure you can't do that at the F1, with paying a fortune!), I got invited into the garage where Rob Austin's
Surtees 1976 F1 car was to have a look around, as far as I could see, they didn't let anyone else in! And you certainly don't get to do
that at the F1 unless you're willing to cut off your right arm or you're a celebrity!
I'd choose BTCC or WTC over the F1 any day of the week...
Don't force it! Get a bigger hammer...
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onenastyviper
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| posted on 8/10/13 at 06:32 AM |
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Firstly, I don't have a problem with Vettel dominating - it's up to the others to beat him, not the FIA or F1 to limit him.
I do think it is part of the larger problem that the cars are sooo aero-dominant and the only way to develop aero is CFD & wind tunnel time but
the only way to find out if it works is to stick the car with a bunch of other cars.
Even NASCAR has found this out - they changed the shape of the cars and found that at certain tracks, the aero dominance resulted in processional
races. Their solution was to change the cars again - they went from spoilers to wings and back to spoilers as they provided for closer racing.
F1 has been left to its own devices, even when it was asked for closer racing, it took the most technically complicated solutions possible rather than
sit down together and collectively agree how to improve the show *and* save some money - anyone remember the "cost saving ideas"?
As I have said before, F1 is all about bending, twisting and breaking the rules in order to gain an (un)competitive advantage. The FIA does not have
the manpower nor the apparent desire to rule F1 with an iron fist so it goes for the easy targets such as Webber, just to show that it is willing to
do something so that it isn't forgotten about itself.
"If I knew what I was doing then it wouldn't be called research would it?...duh!"
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puma931
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| posted on 8/10/13 at 08:37 AM |
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Breaking news.
Ferrari have sacked Massa and hired Nelson Piquet Jr to see if he can put a stop to Seb winning every GP 
[Edited on 8/10/13 by puma931]
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loggyboy
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| posted on 8/10/13 at 09:10 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by onenastyviper
Firstly, I don't have a problem with Vettel dominating - it's up to the others to beat him, not the FIA or F1 to limit him.
I do think it is part of the larger problem that the cars are sooo aero-dominant and the only way to develop aero is CFD & wind tunnel time but
the only way to find out if it works is to stick the car with a bunch of other cars.
As I have said before, F1 is all about bending, twisting and breaking the rules in order to gain an (un)competitive advantage. The FIA does not have
the manpower nor the apparent desire to rule F1 with an iron fist so it goes for the easy targets such as Webber, just to show that it is willing to
do something so that it isn't forgotten about itself.
I dont think many people have a problem with him winning, however its only natural for people to get bored of one person winning, and the only way to
show that boredom or frustration is by either booing or just disliking him.
And its not just Vettel, its the Redbull, its far a better car, and the ban on in season testing means a car that is ahead of the game at the begining
of the season is likely to to stay that way. Even when Brawn dominated in 2009, it was only when the others caught on to the double difusser that they
started to get closer.
Without a doubt the aero situation is the cause of the lack of close racing, and also the fact that the cars are so precise now they have to have a
very narrow working window, even if they could 6 inches from each other with no aero issues, the engines would overheat after half a lap.
That comes down to technology available, which is impossible to restrict as the whole idea of top end motorsport is to push everything including the
limit. Going back 20-30 years when racing was closer, theres was never the build tolerances we have now, and engines broke down regularly because of
it, wheres the fun in having half the field not finish!
All motorsport is about gaining an advantage, even down to clubman level its impossible to police 100%, and those who dont push the boundaries are
unlikely to suceed.
Mistral Motorsport
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onenastyviper
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| posted on 8/10/13 at 10:28 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
quote:
Originally posted by onenastyviper
Firstly, I don't have a problem with Vettel dominating - it's up to the others to beat him, not the FIA or F1 to limit him.
I do think it is part of the larger problem that the cars are sooo aero-dominant and the only way to develop aero is CFD & wind tunnel time but
the only way to find out if it works is to stick the car with a bunch of other cars.
As I have said before, F1 is all about bending, twisting and breaking the rules in order to gain an (un)competitive advantage. The FIA does not have
the manpower nor the apparent desire to rule F1 with an iron fist so it goes for the easy targets such as Webber, just to show that it is willing to
do something so that it isn't forgotten about itself.
I dont think many people have a problem with him winning, however its only natural for people to get bored of one person winning, and the only way to
show that boredom or frustration is by either booing or just disliking him.
And its not just Vettel, its the Redbull, its far a better car, and the ban on in season testing means a car that is ahead of the game at the begining
of the season is likely to to stay that way. Even when Brawn dominated in 2009, it was only when the others caught on to the double difusser that they
started to get closer.
Without a doubt the aero situation is the cause of the lack of close racing, and also the fact that the cars are so precise now they have to have a
very narrow working window, even if they could 6 inches from each other with no aero issues, the engines would overheat after half a lap.
That comes down to technology available, which is impossible to restrict as the whole idea of top end motorsport is to push everything including the
limit. Going back 20-30 years when racing was closer, theres was never the build tolerances we have now, and engines broke down regularly because of
it, wheres the fun in having half the field not finish!
All motorsport is about gaining an advantage, even down to clubman level its impossible to police 100%, and those who dont push the boundaries are
unlikely to suceed.
Agreed.
"If I knew what I was doing then it wouldn't be called research would it?...duh!"
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 8/10/13 at 12:21 PM |
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Current cars are hideous, races mind numbing such a boring sport
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BenB
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| posted on 8/10/13 at 01:39 PM |
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If RBR and Vettel were winning because of pure driver brilliance that would be one thing. But each and every race the end of the first lap he's
two seconds in front. No way that's just a good driver and a sorted chassis.
Without wanting to sound too much like a conspiracy theorist I smell a rat. Vettel has said that their "engine control system" is so
clever none of the opposition will ever work out how they've done what they've done and they got permission from the FIA about six weeks
ago to "update" their ECUs. Suddenly their car is massively faster than anyone else. Okay so the sound hasn't changed but who says
it is traction control.
I reckon they're using KERs harvesting in corners. I know the system only allows them to harvest under braking but who defines braking?
Presumably it's a switch on the brake pedal. Bit of pre-load and it's constant braking (without enough force to activate the hydraulic
brakes). Bit of electronic trickery do-dah and you've got variable KERs harvesting.
RBR have a long history of taking the rules to the edge (and beyond).
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carpmart
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| posted on 8/10/13 at 02:02 PM |
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An interesting thread, with some good points, which I largely disagree with.
5 years ago, F1 was absolutely terrible to watch with the number of overtakes was measured in tens per season. The cars now are able to run MUCH
closer than they were even a couple of years ago, which in turn means that the drivers are prepared to take a little bit of a risk and make some
passes in strange ways at strange parts of the track. Sure its not Moto GP BUT its much better than it was.
The tyre situation I'm in agreement with most on here. I don't really want tyres to be a limiting factor as I want all the drivers going
flat out all the time (you'll see I contradict this further down this post when I talk about limited fuel, a sthis will definitely mean drivers
going slow to conserve fuel)
F1 is relevant and will become more relevant next year, probably more relevant than ever before. Smaller engines and forced induction and the clever
ways that the engine manufacturers (Honda included again soon) are driving innovation, will be relevant to us all. These engineers are working on
ways to get more from less. Less fuel but more performance. Fossil fuels are a finite resource, we all like cars, our kids and their kids will be
able to enjoy IC powered cars for much longer, based on the innovation that will be driven from F1 in the next few seasons. The holy grail is getting
more calorific value from the fuel. The F1 boffins will be focused on this now, as there will be an ever reducing amount of fuel available from the
FIA. This is innovation which is useful and relevant to us all.
The KERS systems in use next year will provide significantly more power too with crank recovery as well as the system in use today.
This is all seems like an exciting and I hope potent mix for 2014 of 'over boost', big bang KERS, DRA and limited fuel. Pretty exciting
as far as I can work out! More overtaking, closer racing, more strategy, LOADS of engine/turbo/energy recovery innovation which is exactly what I
want from the premier motorsport on the planet.
BTW - I was a Vettel fan, up to the point where he turned over his team mate.
You only live once - make the most of it!
Radical Clubsport, Kwaker motor
'94 MX5 MK1, 1.8
F10 M5 - 600bhp Daily Hack 
Range Rover Sport - Wife's Car
Mercedes A class - Son's Car
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onenastyviper
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| posted on 8/10/13 at 02:06 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by carpmart
BTW - I was a Vettel fan, up to the point where he turned over his team mate.
Part of the game unfortunately.
"If I knew what I was doing then it wouldn't be called research would it?...duh!"
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carpmart
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| posted on 8/10/13 at 02:17 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by BenB
If RBR and Vettel were winning because of pure driver brilliance that would be one thing. But each and every race the end of the first lap he's
two seconds in front. No way that's just a good driver and a sorted chassis.
In my experience of racing (five seasons at club level) its actually the first few laps where the good drivers can really make a difference.
'Cold' tyres and brakes, a green track and the ability to 'go on the 'B' of the bang' as good old Linford said,
actually makes a HUGE difference. When the tyres 'come in' and people get going, the fast starting advantage quickly disappeared, even at
my lowly club level.
You only live once - make the most of it!
Radical Clubsport, Kwaker motor
'94 MX5 MK1, 1.8
F10 M5 - 600bhp Daily Hack
Range Rover Sport - Wife's Car
Mercedes A class - Son's Car
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loggyboy
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| posted on 8/10/13 at 03:13 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by BenB
I reckon they're using KERs harvesting in corners. I know the system only allows them to harvest under braking but who defines braking?
Presumably it's a switch on the brake pedal. Bit of pre-load and it's constant braking (without enough force to activate the hydraulic
brakes). Bit of electronic trickery do-dah and you've got variable KERs harvesting.
I cant see how additonal KERS havesting would allow them to put the power down earlier, which is want all the drivers and pudits that commented on it
at singapore noticed they were able to do.
But its sounds similar to the Williams circa 92-93 that were using electrickry to get round rules on traction control etc.
Mistral Motorsport
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Johneturbo
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| posted on 8/10/13 at 04:37 PM |
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Never thought i'd say it, but bring back refuelling and give them tyres they can race on every lap, that way they have to pit but can race
I thought the 07/08 seasons were classics
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mark chandler
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| posted on 8/10/13 at 04:39 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by T66
Can watch it, not a huge fan, now a 100% convert back to MotoGp & BSB, where they still have races.
Hate Suzi Perry nearly as much I do the Sky F1 coverage. The touring cars (even with jason pluto) are more interesting than Vittel winning week in
week out.
Suzi Perry irritates me immediately every week, by walking and talking towards the camera, while in the pit lane, trying very hard to look like she
has hips and is attractive. Just watch her next time.......
My ten bobs worth
Hey, leave Suzy alone, it needs something to watch 
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T66
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| posted on 8/10/13 at 07:22 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
quote:
Originally posted by T66
Can watch it, not a huge fan, now a 100% convert back to MotoGp & BSB, where they still have races.
Hate Suzi Perry nearly as much I do the Sky F1 coverage. The touring cars (even with jason pluto) are more interesting than Vittel winning week in
week out.
Suzi Perry irritates me immediately every week, by walking and talking towards the camera, while in the pit lane, trying very hard to look like she
has hips and is attractive. Just watch her next time.......
My ten bobs worth
Hey, leave Suzy alone, it needs something to watch
I realize she has a following, each man to their own ...I prefer looking for the join in EJs wig.
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