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Parking Ticket Help

Hellfire - 8/6/11 at 08:50 PM

Our old man parked the Indy in a pay & display car park the other day whilst he went to do a bit of shopping. Paid for the parking ticket from the ticket machine but as it wasn't the self adhesive type, he couldn't/didn't display it anywhere on the Indy, so stuck it in his pocket. He came back to find he had received a Ł50 parking fine. On arriving home, he then wrote a letter and sent the ticket to the local council explaining why he didn't display the ticket. They accepted that he had paid for the parking ticket but not displayed it in the vehicle, so sent a letter back rejecting the appeal but offered to reduce the fine to Ł25 on the grounds that the ticket should have been displayed in a tamperproof holder

Should he refuse to pay the Ł25 fine? Anybody else been in this situation and able to offer advice?

Phil

RichardK - 8/6/11 at 08:55 PM

Just out of interest, does the ticket say afix to windscreen, because if you don't have a windscreen then you have no way of complying with their own instructions?

Just a thought

Rich

eddie99 - 8/6/11 at 08:56 PM

What the hell is a tamperproof holder? Nothing is tamperproof when its in an open top car.

blakep82 - 8/6/11 at 08:57 PM

he could argue that there were no tamper proof holders made available... but it is a pay and display, and he would have known that. i guess their thinking is, the ticket he's sent them may have been from another car there, that he could have 'borrowed' from someone else? i don't know, but i think you'll struggle to get it sorted. councils parking people are a bunch of pillocks

Hellfire - 8/6/11 at 09:06 PM

quote:
Originally posted by RichardK
Just out of interest, does the ticket say afix to windscreen, because if you don't have a windscreen then you have no way of complying with their own instructions?

Just a thought

Rich

Unfortunately he returned the ticket with the letter he wrote. However, as it didn't have an adhesive backing, I'd doubt if it mentioned 'afix to windscreen'

My thoughts are that the council are on the back foot as they've already offered to reduce the fine to Ł25, so I reckon they might drop the fine altogether with a bit of persuasion. The person who issued the parking fine didn't write down the make and model of the vehicle as he couldn't determine it. He also must have been colour blind because he couldn't determine the colour either.

Just out of curiosity, how could a motorbike display this kind of parking ticket?

Phil

cliftyhanger - 8/6/11 at 09:10 PM

quote:
Originally posted by blakep82
he could argue that there were no tamper proof holders made available... but it is a pay and display, and he would have known that. i guess their thinking is, the ticket he's sent them may have been from another car there, that he could have 'borrowed' from someone else? i don't know, but i think you'll struggle to get it sorted. councils parking people are a bunch of pillocks

Bit harsh! I suspect the "borrowing another ticket" is exactly the reason they are not writing the whole thing off. Some carparks ask for the first part of your reg no when you buy a ticket, which is actually a good idea (as long as you can remember it when you buy the ticket!) as it means they can check you have got a ticket.

However in this case I would write it off to experience. The other option is to appeal it I presume to court, but the costs/grief more than outweighs the Ł25.

Now, tamperproof holder?? Worth asking what they suggest for that for future reference. Next best is gaffer tape I suppose.

So I am not being helpful, shame it was a council carpark.

matt_claydon - 8/6/11 at 09:14 PM

Bikes don't usually pay for parking, although some councils are apparently introducing it. I guess they will use mobile phone payment where you give the full reg number so nothing has to be displayed.

RichardK - 8/6/11 at 09:14 PM

I had a similar ticket but as it was a works van I hadnt bothered getting a ticket just put a note on my windscreen saying I was delivering etc, any way I got this ticket and on the ticket he described it as white when it a metalic silver so I argued that if he couldn't even determine the colour how could he be relied upon to see a small ticket on the dash?

Got away with it with a letter saying not to do it again bla bla

R

RichardK - 8/6/11 at 09:16 PM

Did they not return the ticket/evidence, you'll need it if you want to go to court?? I would ask for it back to, knowing that they've already binned it.

AndyW - 8/6/11 at 09:17 PM

Pay and put it down to experience.

JoelP - 8/6/11 at 09:27 PM

how about a letter simply stating that you dont intend to pay unless a judge orders you to do so? Thats what i did following a dispute with a local council, where they wanted Ł400 out of me. I heard nothing back from them. I doubt a debt collection company will be interested in taking it on, since its only Ł25 and disputed with reasonable chance of not being upheld in court. You wouldnt get a ccj even if it went against you in court, if you pay immediately.

Hellfire - 8/6/11 at 09:41 PM

The annoying thing is that the person who issued the ticket can clearly see that there is no secure way to display the ticket in this kind of vehicle. If the ticket had been displayed, it could easily have blown away or been stolen = Ł50 fine. By keeping the ticket in his pocket, at least we can now challenge the fine. Had our old man known that the ticket didn't have an adhesive backing, he probably wouldn't have parked there in the first place.

I reckon we have a good chance to appeal.....

Phil

mad-butcher - 9/6/11 at 07:53 AM

Our parking wardens have cameras and take a photo, which proves you were there but in your case it might have worked in your favour.

tony

afj - 9/6/11 at 07:57 AM

I would ask for the ticket back as its yours and you paid for it and tell them point blank that you will not pay the fine we had a similar situation where we paid the council to remove our old shed we paid by chq Ł30 but the lazy sods only took the sides and left the roof and floor panel so we canceled the chq and got a snotty letter from them demanding payment or court action we told them we paid for a service which you didnt carry out so we are keeping the money firmly in our bank not yours never heard anything back

scootz - 9/6/11 at 07:58 AM

FWIW, I agree that the fine should be waived, but it's a tad harsh to have a go at the guy who issued the ticket.

As far as he (or she) is concerned it's still a car parked in a space without a ticket on display.

swanny - 9/6/11 at 08:22 AM

i'd pay the fine on the condition that they can supply you with a place to buy an approved type of tamper proof holder.
if they cant agree on what a tamper proof holder looks like they can hardly expect you to use one.
might be handy info for all of us too.

paul

montythemole - 9/6/11 at 08:33 AM

If it's proper council then pay up as they do have powers. If it's one of these dime a dozen pretend lot then ignore it as I always do.

They'd argue you found a way to affix your tax disc (presume bike style holder) so just buy another for your parking ticket.

MkIndy7 - 9/6/11 at 10:24 AM

There's no way you should pay!
Even tickets with a sticky back I always take a photo or too showing the ticket was displayed and then closer up on the details with my phone.
These un-sticky tickets cause me no end of grief in the Van, no nice flat surfaces to put them on and if the apprentice slams the door they get blown onto the floor!.

When we first finished the car like 8 years ago I emailed NCP to ask them how we should display a ticket and they were very helpful, with advice along the lines of take a picture of the ticket, (I think for motorcycles you get 2 tickets one to display and 1 to keep) or keep the ticket with you and contest it with a copy of this email and all charges will be dropped.

Until a suitable holder is provided or available for purchase they cannot use that against you.

Maybe try speaking to somebody there or Citizens Advice maybe even somebody like the AA might be able to advise.

Brook_lands - 9/6/11 at 10:50 AM

As this is a council ticket you must take it seriously and anyone who advises you to simply not pay is giving you very bad advice. The Ł25 is the discount rate for quick payment offered to everyone, it then goes up. It may only be Ł25 now but councils can and do pursue and the cost of this, court cost, baliffs etc is added on, before you know it it will be Ł500+ and they will be taking your car away.

However, if done properly they can be fought and won. Get yourself onto http://forums.pepipoo.com/ and get some good advice if you really want to fight it.

PS - Speculative invoices from private companies dressed up to look like parking fines can and should be ignored.

02GF74 - 9/6/11 at 12:22 PM

I would fight it - the ticket was purchased but was not possible to display securely. Concil sould provide free secure ticket holders.

(the photo idea isgood one)

BenB - 9/6/11 at 12:55 PM

I'd also fight it on the basis that it comes down to intention. The intention was not to avoid buying the ticket. The intention was to secure the ticket in such a way (IE in the pocket) that when it was claimed one had not been bought it could be demonstrated that it had (which is exactly what has happened). If you left an unsticky ticket in an open top car it would not be there when you got back and there would be no proof of a ticket being purchased to defend the claim.

matt_gsxr - 9/6/11 at 01:37 PM

next time, put it in the window and take a photo with your camera phone.

It isn't your fault if someone steals it.

Matt

ps. just pay this time

tony-devon - 9/6/11 at 01:52 PM

bikes usually dont have to pay, my trikes go in a car space, and so I pay, but cant put the ticket on the trike, nowhere to put it, and it would just blow away

I emailed the council and they wrote back saying that in my case I should purchase a ticket, keep it with me and just send it in with any penalty notices should I get one.

sods law I never did get a ticket, I guess the warden must have looked at it and thought, WTF!! LOL

I would deffo take the route of photographing it in the window of the car when you get one next time, because in my opinion, if a photo of the car without it on show is sufficient to say you didnt have one, then a photo of one in the car is sufficient to proove that you did.

DRC INDY 7 - 9/6/11 at 06:18 PM

The trouble is keith does not have a camera phone and if he did would not know how to use it

McLannahan - 9/6/11 at 06:53 PM

And he'd have nowhere to keep the phone in his shorts!

DRC INDY 7 - 9/6/11 at 07:15 PM

quote:
Originally posted by McLannahan
And he'd have nowhere to keep the phone in his shorts!

He went to school in them shorts

thunderace - 9/6/11 at 07:30 PM

quote:
Originally posted by RichardK
Did they not return the ticket/evidence, you'll need it if you want to go to court?? I would ask for it back to, knowing that they've already binned it.

what he said

morcus - 10/6/11 at 03:15 AM

I know it's unfair to complain about someone who was doing there job by ticketing the car, but we all know that any parking attendant seeing an open car is going to have made a b-line for it, and from things I've been told by a former parking attendant, would probably have stolen the ticket personally had it just been stuck to the window.

Doctor Derek Doctors - 10/6/11 at 12:48 PM

He went to a Pay and Display.

He did Paybut didn't Display.

He did half of what was required so they are only asking him to pay half of the fine.

This sounds like (for once) the council are being incredibly sensible and fair to me .

Ninehigh - 10/6/11 at 03:22 PM

I'd only pay on the basis that they remind you that you failed to display a valid ticket. It's usually in the conditions and if they had any sense they'd get you on that (which you can't argue against) rather than not having a ticket (which you sent them)

Hellfire - 10/6/11 at 04:32 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Doctor Derek Doctors
He went to a Pay and Display.

He did Paybut didn't Display.

He did half of what was required so they are only asking him to pay half of the fine.

This sounds like (for once) the council are being incredibly sensible and fair to me .

Agreed. BUT.... having looked at the type of car, they must have realised why it wasn't displayed. There is clear evidence that a parking ticket was indeed purchased and the council haven't lost out on any revenue. Our old man acted honestly, in good faith and this problem is merely a result of the councils policy not to invest in a ticket machine that produces tickets with an adhesive backing. The council must be well aware of the inherent problems that their choice of parking tickets present to motorists.

At least that's what I will argue..........

Phil

Ninehigh - 10/6/11 at 09:10 PM

Fair point but I'd come across like meeting them halfway and ask where you can get the tamper proof holder

Krismc - 11/6/11 at 07:37 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Hellfire

quote:
Originally posted by Doctor Derek Doctors
He went to a Pay and Display.

He did Paybut didn't Display.

He did half of what was required so they are only asking him to pay half of the fine.

This sounds like (for once) the council are being incredibly sensible and fair to me .

Agreed. BUT.... having looked at the type of car, they must have realised why it wasn't displayed. There is clear evidence that a parking ticket was indeed purchased and the council haven't lost out on any revenue. Our old man acted honestly, in good faith and this problem is merely a result of the councils policy not to invest in a ticket machine that produces tickets with an adhesive backing. The council must be well aware of the inherent problems that their choice of parking tickets present to motorists.

At least that's what I will argue..........

Phil

I work in (not for) our local council, and i asked the question a while back and got the girl on the next desk who works for the council too speak to the parking dept too ask the question as i cant park anywhere down the coast, and didnt want too take my chance with the vultures, i was told basically 'tough', so i left it at that, now on the 30th july there is a car show and ive sent a email too the organiser telling them the situation that people will recieve fines and would love too bring some cars along but cant, so he emailed asking for a waver for the day of the 30th, they also replied with im sorry but all cars must comply with the guidlines setout in bla bla bla, so basically NO!!

I think this is discrimination as my pay and display tickets cleary state affix to rear of windscreen - which i dont have!! But my car is road legal 2011 , so they should adapt to my vehicle

quote from coucil in email:
Pay and display bays are parking spaces with ticket machines for a rank of bays.

Full guidance regarding payment, the hours of operation and maximum stay periods are stated on the front of the machine and/or on adjacent road signs. The time your vehicle can stay until is printed on the ticket.

Displaying the parking ticket

The parking ticket should be displayed in the windscreen where it is easlily visible from the pavement. The expiry date and time must always be visible, so always take a second to check this when leaving your vehicle. Failure to follow these instructions may result in a Penalty Charge Notice being issued.

[Edited on 11/6/11 by Krismc]

[Edited on 11/6/11 by Krismc]

MkIndy7 - 11/6/11 at 08:08 AM

Would be nice to use the old Ideaology "innocent until proven guilty"
They can't prove you didn't buy a ticket.. In which case your innoscent which is further backed up by you providing the valid ticket.

That above from the council sounds like just a generic reply especially if it shoots them in the foot for the car show.

Maybe sending pictures of the car may get a more understanding response, as some people really can't comprehend a car can have no roof let alone no windscreen!.
Then it's probably time to fire emails off to anybody that'll listen, Local Newspaper, MP, The AA, Department of transport etc
As times are hard and the councils are out to make as much money from this as they can the issue needs resolving as it's going to happen more and more to us.

Krismc - 11/6/11 at 08:53 AM

quote:
Originally posted by MkIndy7
Would be nice to use the old Ideaology "innocent until proven guilty"
They can't prove you didn't buy a ticket.. In which case your innoscent which is further backed up by you providing the valid ticket.

That above from the council sounds like just a generic reply especially if it shoots them in the foot for the car show.

Maybe sending pictures of the car may get a more understanding response, as some people really can't comprehend a car can have no roof let alone no windscreen!.
Then it's probably time to fire emails off to anybody that'll listen, Local Newspaper, MP, The AA, Department of transport etc
As times are hard and the councils are out to make as much money from this as they can the issue needs resolving as it's going to happen more and more to us.

That got me mad this morning when i wrote the first bit, ive wrote to out local papers for editors letter section.

This is being talked about on several car forums at the moment and would be nice too get a full list of council responces!

Its crazy that i cant do a coastal run in my own borough, well i can, but i cant stop!!

ashg - 11/6/11 at 09:09 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Brook_lands
As this is a council ticket you must take it seriously and anyone who advises you to simply not pay is giving you very bad advice. The Ł25 is the discount rate for quick payment offered to everyone, it then goes up. It may only be Ł25 now but councils can and do pursue and the cost of this, court cost, baliffs etc is added on, before you know it it will be Ł500+ and they will be taking your car away.

However, if done properly they can be fought and won. Get yourself onto http://forums.pepipoo.com/ and get some good advice if you really want to fight it.

PS - Speculative invoices from private companies dressed up to look like parking fines can and should be ignored.

all the time it is in dispute they cant increase the fee for non payment. and as for it being the council, i used to work for the council many many moons moons ago and the people that worked in the parking enforcement office were far from the sharpest knife in the draw.

from my experience just keep writing them letters saying that you are not paying because you purchased a ticket, eventually they will run out of automated responses and have to give up as they lack the facility to write a letter on the councils behalf without 10 other people having to check it.

Hellfire - 3/1/12 at 12:43 PM

Just to finish this thread off, I put in two appeals to the Council which were rejected, and then followed up with an appeal to the Traffic Penalty Tribunal in September (as protocol). We got notification on the 18th December that our appeal had been allowed, basically because the Council had failed to include a copy of page 6 of the Traffic Regulation Order (TRO) to the Tribunal.

The page they apparently failed to copy to the TPT was included in my copy of the Councils submission, so I can't understand why it wasn't included to the TPT. Nevertheless, the Adjudicator's decision is final and binding.

This feels somewhat of a hollow victory, as they didn't even consider the points raised in my appeal letter. Still, it's a victory and ultimately means our old man doesn't have to pay the Ł50 fine.........

Phil

scudderfish - 3/1/12 at 01:20 PM

Woohoo!

owelly - 3/1/12 at 01:41 PM

You should arrange to meet said council officials in aforementioned car park, and ask them where you should display a ticket. Let them source a tamper-proof ticket holder within the car park. Also pen a letter to your local council reps and see what they say. Finally, give it both barrels through the media.

karlak - 3/1/12 at 01:49 PM

Interesting point.

I have just emailed my local council to ask their policy on this.

loggyboy - 3/1/12 at 02:21 PM

quote:
Originally posted by owelly
You should arrange to meet said council officials in aforementioned car park, and ask them where you should display a ticket. Let them source a tamper-proof ticket holder within the car park. Also pen a letter to your local council reps and see what they say. Finally, give it both barrels through the media.

Id ask where you can get a tamper proof ticket holder fullstop!?

BenB - 3/1/12 at 02:45 PM

I'd stick like clarification on what a tamper-proof holder is. Something that's easy to open to put a new ticket in but impossible to open to nick the old one? Doesn't exist.

karlak - 3/1/12 at 03:30 PM

quote:
Originally posted by karlak
Interesting point.

I have just emailed my local council to ask their policy on this.

and their reply..

I am not sure if this is the same for most pay and displays --

Dear xxx

Thank you for your email. On Street parking and some Car parks can be paid using your mobile phone via RingGo. The number you are required to ring will be displayed on the side of the Pay and Display machines. Further details about how to set up an account can be found online.

EDIT:: So will the wardens know that I have rang and paid ?? Hmmm, not sure myself

[Edited on 3/1/12 by karlak]

[Edited on 3/1/12 by karlak]

jossey - 3/1/12 at 03:44 PM

is it a private carpark ?

whitestu - 3/1/12 at 03:49 PM

quote:

Thank you for your email. On Street parking and some Car parks can be paid using your mobile phone via RingGo. The number you are required to ring will be displayed on the side of the Pay and Display machines. Further details about how to set up an account can be found online.

In London a lot are like this and it is the only way you can pay. I've used them a couple of times and not had a ticket.

loggyboy - 3/1/12 at 04:37 PM

quote:
Originally posted by karlak
EDIT:: So will the wardens know that I have rang and paid ?? Hmmm, not sure myself

They all have litle wireless PDAs now, they would type your reg and and the system would tell them.

Fred W B - 4/1/12 at 11:50 AM

quote:

Something that's easy to open to put a new ticket in but impossible to open to nick the old one? Doesn't exist.

Can you not just carry a roll of clear packing tape and stick the ticket to the car with that?

Cheers

Fred W b

Hellfire - 4/1/12 at 04:40 PM

Fred, that's exactly what I've told Dad to do in future. And also to take a clear photo of the ticket with his phone and another photo with the ticket attached to the car. In the event that someone does steal it, at least he can prove he did pay & display.

Phil

Krismc - 4/1/12 at 07:18 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Hellfire
Fred, that's exactly what I've told Dad to do in future. And also to take a clear photo of the ticket with his phone and another photo with the ticket attached to the car. In the event that someone does steal it, at least he can prove he did pay & display.

Phil

I have spoke again on several occasions to the parking control office for North Tyneside Council, and sent a few emails and they keep saying that i will get a ticket in both there type of car parks ...

A) Pay and Display (attach too Windscreen type)

Ticket must be attached to the inside of a windscreen, if you dont have a windscreen and attach it in a tamperproof holder (which you can get from halfords but they are rubbish) you will still get a fine.

b) Pay and Display (leave on dash board type)

As above, if you have a flat dash board like mine and stick it too that you will be fined, if you stick it too the top of the scuttle that is the exterior of the car and you will be fined.

There final comment on this was, you must comply to all pay and display terms and conditions the tickets you are enquiring about must be displayed on the dash and be visable from the kerbside.

...So i think they not allowed on the road now

Basically they are a bunch of absolute idiots out to rob innocent people willing to pay for parking.

Hellfire - 4/1/12 at 08:56 PM

But if you can prove you made all reasonable efforts to comply with their terms & conditions, the courts in England would find in your favour.....

Phil