My dad told me not to bother with apprenticeships because with a degree you can get chartered etc and it would give me a better chance of getting a job.
Read this and cannot quite believe it.
Sports cars are uncool?
Not wanting a freebie to the Grand Prix?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2158484/Facebook-generation-shuns-apprenticeships-obsessed-site-learn-trade.html
s
I'm glad you showed me that, I'll try and get a job there after I've finished my uni degree
My dad told me not to bother with apprenticeships because with a degree you can get chartered etc and it would give me a better chance of getting a
job.
dailymail!
quote:
Originally posted by vanepico
I'm glad you showed me that, I'll try and get a job there after I've finished my uni degree
My dad told me not to bother with apprenticeships because with a degree you can get chartered etc and it would give me a better chance of getting a job.
quote:
Originally posted by franky
dailymail!
Sorry lost me.
Whats the title of the newspaper got
to do with the fact Ansar Ali cant get
quality new staff?????
s
My dad advised me to get an apprenticeship on leaving school.
I started my apprenticeship in 1983 finished it 1988 and got ONC and HNC in Mechanical and Production Engineering during it on day release.
There are other ways of getting paper qualifications other than full time study.
I've never had a day of unemployment since I started work on 15th Aug 1983 despite being laid off twice.
Sometimes dads do know best.
I did an apprenticeship, seven bloody years, was very hard on the almost zero money, (had to do spare time jobs to raise enough cash to buy an old nackered motor bike), but, was never out of work, (well not untill I retired), but that is not the case these days. A lot of young people complete there time and then the firm doesn't want them, just wanted the cheap labour. Strangely there is no requirement for a firm to offer employment afer completion of the apprenticeship. Cheers Ray
I left school after S grades and went to college, got sponsored through and trained by a company now Ill not be out of work. Best thing I ever did.
I went down the school / uni route and while
we got a small bit of hands on with welding
and electronics etc Ive always thought there
was far more room for a practical element
on the course. (89-94 to show vintage)
I actually wish I had some other skill
like bricklaying or plumbing or whatever
instead of "doing all the work from the neck up".
The story just baffles me.
If I lived near Caterham and maybe
didnt fancy the whole uni experience
I would definitely being applying.
As for the statement that young lads think fast cars
are uncool...In what universe is this?
And ..and ..I know people think F1 is a bit
predictable....but not this year....didnt
see that coming...and only one person
took the offer. The free offer???
If Mr Ali has a few free seats
going to the Spanish GP my
wife and I will gladly go.
s
I did an appenticeship and loved it!
I've just had a conditional offer for one. Always has seemed the best option for me, I failed to get one when I was a teenager and sort of forgot
until recently.
I sort of skimmed through it and think what they're saying about intrest in computor gaming over actual driving is unfare, the reason is young
people can only afford to do it for real if they spend literally all their money on cars and driving. Also £17K a year doesn't seem like that
much money for a job like that. It's only Just over £8 an hour and in some areas you can get that doing really basic jobs, If I worked an extra
hour every shift I'd make that.
I would kill to get some sort of technical apprenticeship now, but alas I am over 20 years too late 
Hell, I'd work on minimum wage as a general dogs-body if it meant I'd get on-the-job training in something like car restoration or
metal-crafting.
I would too, but the article seemed to be suggesting it was alot more money than it is. I currently Make about £14k a year as will alot of teenagers
who go full time in the jobs they have while doing A levels, and I know alot of people who don't bother because the reward doesn't seem
worth it.
I'd work for less than that, but it doesn't seem like a competitive wage, especially considering the money you could make self employed with
the same sort of skills.
I think another problem is alot of aprenticeships go unnoticed. The one I'm after I only knew about because my mother works for the department
offering it. I'd have applied to do one a Caterham if I'd known about it and was qualified.
interesting,if the car is what it says from the reg no. the seats and wheels have been upgraded ....shame.......oh and plus one for apprenticeships
[Edited on 17/6/2012 by westf27]
Don't forget the minimum wage for an apprentice is £2.80 an hour so it could be worse! Uni said the average salary after you have graduated is
atleast £20,000 PA for an engineering job.
I've got an industrial placement as a CAD draftsman coming up in july 
I am nearly a year into my engineering apprenticeship - had my 48th birthday this year - took 30 years to discover what I should have done when I left school !!!!!!
I went the degree route (graduated 2007) and ended up with a MEng. I found it completely bonkers that falling out of uni with virtually no practical
skills qualified me for a better paid position than people who have been doing an apprenticeship since they were 16, obviously I had known this and
thats why I took the route that I did. I had been helping my dad fixing cars + rebuilding engines and stuff (rebuilding model aircraft engines was a
favourite hobby when I was young- my dad had a bag full of them from his youth!), so I at least had some mechanical competence. Some people on the
course were just a joke. One lad put his hand up in a 4th year combustion chemistry lecture to ask what a reciprocating engine was!
When I left there was an exit interview with various lecturers about how to improve the course. I suggested buying a scrapper for £50 and letting the
students pull it to bits for a couple of hours a week. Their faces lit up as if to say "crumbs, thats a good idea" and then dropped when
they started talking amongst themselves about how they would get anyone to approve it. Joke!
I find it hilarious when new graduates arrive at work and swagger around the place like they know it all..... and then quickly get brought down a peg
or two by one of the old boys!
I'm sure the comments about grads don't apply to the current students on here by the way, it's the people who have no
mechanical/automotive interest and do the courses that get my back up. If I was doing it all again, with the current cost of a uni degree, I'd be
banging on Caterhams door!
quote:
Originally posted by BigGeoff
I am nearly a year into my engineering apprenticeship - had my 48th birthday this year - took 30 years to discover what I should have done when I left school !!!!!!
My youngest (16 yrs) has a natural engineering mind. He can see what he wants and gets on and makes it. He has fantastic teachers at school who have
really helped him in "resistant materials" (Metalwork/woodwork etc) allowing him to use all the tools and machinery that some schools seem
to be averse to using due to ELFnSAFETY or more probably lack of knowlege.
He went for his week long works experience with a stonemason who was very surprised at his attitude to work. Usually the youngsters he sees want the
money but are not willing to put the effort in, typically lasting about an hour before getting bored and not coming in the following day. My lad loved
it and went on site with the masons to assist. He went back in the summer for a further week - for fun. The reports back were all very favorable to
him but they were not hiring. Another lad lasted a morning and was asked to leave and they said that was not untypical!
He applied for an engineering design apprenticeship with a major engineering company and along with about 450 others was competing for just 6 places.
He was competing at age 16 against 18 year old's with A levels and older ones with degrees, experience etc. Didn't get it, but was asked to
come back for an interview for a place in the specialist machine shop which was not advertised and got the job. He starts in September with CNC
machines, TIG welding, working down to micron levels etc. When asked why he got the job, it was because of his positive attitude and ability to ask
questions which were relevant to the job. They loved his instructable of a bungee pole lathe nailed to the top of the shed which may have helped
too.
Needless to say I am thrilled he has got a job as he is one of a few out of his year who have. That he has got a job working for a world class company
is even better.
I also have a totally different view as his twin brother is totally academic and musically talented (Piano Level 7 with merit yesterday) although
reluctantly capable (he hates getting dirty!) He is off to college and then uni probably ancient history or biology. He will go far - I am sure -
probably Egypt javascript:icon(''
quote:
Originally posted by blakep82
my mum told me an apprenticeship was a stupid idea too, thats why i'm now 29, living back with them, doing rubbish temporary jobs i can't stand, and now i've got one i actually like its only part time and not paying a huge amount more that signing on, and trying to get on an apprenticeship, no one's interested in a 29 year old apprentice... lesson to school leavers, parents DO NOT know best.
i'm still trying to forgive her for it... at least if i decided to, and did it, and was in this s(h)ituation, i'd only have myself to blame
wish i could sign up for it! the 1000 mile daily commute might be hard though, and i couldn't move near on apprenticeship pay
I wouldn't mind working for caterham, but would I want to live in the midlands?
A lot (if not most) of the very best engineering students graduate with little to no hands on experience. Remember that engineering is much much
broader than knowing what a lathe is!
It is a shame that many companies are struggling to find apprentices, but I would put that down to the availability of student finance to fund piss
poor degrees making that a much more appealing path more than computer games.
quote:
Originally posted by phelpsa
A lot (if not most) of the very best engineering students graduate with little to no hands on experience
quote:
Originally posted by franky
quote:
Originally posted by phelpsa
A lot (if not most) of the very best engineering students graduate with little to no hands on experience
Based on what exactly?
I came straight out of school at 15 and did 2 apprenticeships in a row, 32 now, always been employed, have done ok really, got my own place 8 years
ago, got a few cars, got a few kids, got married, I'd recommend it (apprenticeships that is- not wives and kids )
When I came to leaving school I thought "I need money to get fast cars-now" so I though sod uni and went into employment instead.
quote:
Originally posted by phelpsa
quote:
Originally posted by franky
quote:
Originally posted by phelpsa
A lot (if not most) of the very best engineering students graduate with little to no hands on experience
Based on what exactly?
Based on coming from an engineering family, working in an engineering environment that takes on a lot of graduate engineers and being mid way through an MEng course.
I can guarantee you that very few of the medical engineers that graduate from my course have ever installed a hip. Very few of the aerospace engineers have ever dismantled a plane. Very few of the systems&control engineers have ever fiddled around with a computer. The automotive engineers are lucky with the Formula Student, but only a very small number actually get involved with the building of the car.
They've all had a training session on a mill but that isn't exactly relevant to what they will be doing.
Hands on experience just isn't required for the majority of engineering practices these days. Of course, its a good thing to have and will set you apart from other students, but not a necessity.
It all depends on what your personal. preference. You can earn good money doing any of the 2. I work in a big company and there are some clever cookies out there. Some progressed via the apprenticeship route, some came from Universities. Everybody detest each other. Its always us and them. Cause they think grads have an unfair advantage. whilst I understand some grads come across as cockey, I think its just a defence mechanism to sustain them till the understand what they are doing on plant. Lets be honest working in industry is not fun. Some People make it their role in life to trip you up and say look at the dumb new graduate u just employed. I had a year of it when i started. End of the day, you have spent years in an enclosed sheltered environment learning the theory of things. its not meant to be for practical experience. Your supposed to get that at work
quote:
Originally posted by franky
That may be the case in your field, not the case in most other engineering ones. As someone who has interviewed for high level engineering jobs the best people we see and that show the most ability when under pressure are those that have done both, people who have only ever practiced theory tend to struggle with the practical aspects. Having proper knowledge of the practical aspects allows them to think better/quicker and design smarter.
Whatever happened to the idea of mixing the academic theoretical side of engineering education, with the practical? My apprenticeship was in the early
60s, and I recall quite a few sandwich courses. Students attended uni/college for 6 months, then went into industry for the next 6 months, and this
was repeated until their course finished.
Some of my fellow apprentices did B. Eng (Bradford), others did HND. Older ex-apprentices may recall Dip. Tech., which was then a 4-year course, in
sandwich form. Since the institutions offering this qualification have become universities (circa 1966), it has become B.Sc.
Is there any such approach to technical education these days?
My dad has been in the motortrade his whole life and advised against it, i ended up doing an apprenticeship to become an electrician despite having
the brains and qualifications to go to uni, the reason i decided against uni is i knew a hell of alot of people who went uni and couldnt get anything
with there degree and ended up doing jobs you could do from school, everyone of my mates who went to uni are now in that situation.
By doing and apprentaship and not going to uni i am alot better off than my mates who did go to uni, however if i did it again i would have ignored my
dad become a mechanic and then gone to the university of motorsport (which i didnt realise existed until recently)
quote:
Is there any such approach to technical education these days?
I've got a BEng (Hons) in
Automotive Engineering from Bolton and they had room after room of interesting machines to play with which pretty much no one ever used. In fact
several people who graduated had no real understanding of how a car actually worked.......... I'm hoping before I finish my degree I will be able to add to my CV "Constructed home built road legal 2 seater sports car, using skills
such as composites, welding and machining/fabrication" and maybe extreme wallet exercises
I think it is safe to say anyone on this forum has at least used a pillar drill once.
I took a very funny route of school, college (btec national diploma in engineering) then university, and for most of the time I was repeating all the
stuff I had done at college, at uni (stuff like pneumatics, hydraulics etc), minus the actual use of machinery. And for something to be done at
college but not university. The whole reason I thought about doing uni was because I thought we would be making stuff but alas you bloody well
don't!
I must be the opposite to just about everyone else, I cannot stand the tedium of several thousands of equations, give me an engineering drawing and
some metal and I'll make it for you!
We used to get Graduates come into our works on accelerated
promotion - coming in at Foreman level. Our works was massive employing nearly 3000 people with the vast majority
being time served craftsmen of all disciplines, including the dying art of blacksmiths.
I think it's fair to say the Graduates didn't know their arse from a hole in the ground - both in terms
of practical engineering knowledge or man management. This wasn't their fault - just the way it was, dumped in charge of men with
no management experience and only theoretical knowledge to fall back on.
I was apprentice to a very knowledgeable and experienced craftsman and I asked his opinion
of the Graduates we got - his response '' lighthouses in the desert lad - bright but f*ck all use''
Before anyone gets out of their pram, I'm sure that's not the case of the people on here.
A healthy balance of practical ability and experience backed with theoretical knowledge make the best engineers in my opinion.
quote:
Originally posted by vanepico
I'm hoping before I finish my degree I will be able to add to my CV "Constructed home built road legal 2 seater sports car, using skills such as composites, welding and machining/fabrication" and maybe extreme wallet exercises
I think it is safe to say anyone on this forum has at least used a pillar drill once.
I took a very funny route of school, college (btec national diploma in engineering) then university, and for most of the time I was repeating all the stuff I had done at college, at uni (stuff like pneumatics, hydraulics etc), minus the actual use of machinery. And for something to be done at college but not university. The whole reason I thought about doing uni was because I thought we would be making stuff but alas you bloody well don't!
I must be the opposite to just about everyone else, I cannot stand the tedium of several thousands of equations, give me an engineering drawing and some metal and I'll make it for you!
I managed to scrape the first year, second year I just have a maths retake to do in July. I got a first in engineering design though!
I started my Aircraft apprenticeship when I was 18 and its the best thing Ive ever done !
quote:
I managed to scrape the first year, second year I just have a maths retake to do in July. I got a first in engineering design though!
quote:
Originally posted by D Beddows
quote:
I managed to scrape the first year, second year I just have a maths retake to do in July. I got a first in engineering design though!
no, no you didn't and it's an important distinction - you didn't pass the year so you wouldn't get a 1st or anything close no matter what marks you get in individual modules and potential employers will only judge you on your overall classification. If you can't do the maths you wont get a good grade as it is pretty much THE most important thing - it doesn't matter if you can fabricate an F1 car in your sleep tbh - I fell into that trap and from 'been there, done that' school of life experience it doesn't work, sorry
thing is we need the uni folk, but we need engineers not (no offence to anyone) history of modern literature and art-media... Unfortunately lots of
people seem to do the latter, out of my friends I have one whos done electrical/mechanical engineering, and Ive got at least 2 friends!!! all the
rest are doing the same job as when they were in uni.
Id still personally do the apprenticeship route and get the real world experience, cause to me its more relevant. and the thought of just coming out
of uni now is a bad one. for one Id have no car and wouldnt be on this forum. for another I wouldnt have seen anything of the world.
but then its horses for courses innit?
Oh, we DO need people doing history, literature and so on.
Thing is, we only need the very brightest people to do them, not the vast numbers that are being churned through the university system, cynically to
hide youth unemployment.
30 years ago, I think the University numbers where about 10%? happy to be corrected.
today heading to 50%, but there are not 5 times as many graduate jobs out there. And what is worse, kids all believe the only route to a decent job is
via Uni. I see these kids at school, and I truly despair. The very few I come across who tell me they intend doing an apprenticeship (a very small
number, and they usually have a lot more sense) are surprised at how pleased I am for them.
I am terrified for my kids. Eldest is 17, struggling with her science A levels (despite straight A gcse's) and looking at University courses. I
am gently hinting about various apprenticeships that are available, and hoping she will pay some interest. Youger one (15) seems intent on becoming a
teacher, so that IS a Uni entry, and I believe she will be ideal for that career. Can't knock it, it has served me well. Besides, it is one of
the jobs where any country in the world will welcome you with open arms.
quote:
Originally posted by cliftyhanger
Youger one (15) seems intent on becoming a teacher,so that IS a Uni entry , and I believe she will be ideal for that career. Can't knock it, it has served me well. Besides, it is one of the jobs where any country in the world will welcome you with open arms.
There's one thing many on here are forgetting due to our inherent love of cars.
Most people think cars are boring, are going to kill the planet and are just going to get ever more expensive. Most young(er) folk, and I'm 28,
just have no experience of kit/fast/race/classic cars any more. They're either too expensive to run, too expensive to buy or not suitable for
attracting the girls. And most young people can't insure them anyway.
I went to uni for about 18 months and dropped out, completely disillusioned by the course and a couple of the lecturers. I worked for a year or so and then did an Apprenticeship at about 20 years old which was the start of a (so far) very successful career. I think an apprenticeship is very best way to both gain a skill and education and also prove your worth to an employer as a younger person.
The 50% uni thing was a Labour Target set to cover up employment problems by taking people out of the work force, all it did was mean there are alot of jobs you need a degree to be employed in but you really don't to actually do.
About as many varied answers as I expected to see
Me - left school at 16 to be an Electronics Engineering Apprentice (stock 4 year course - year 1 @ college, broad spectrum engineering, years 2-4 day
release for ONC then HNC). Suitables grades after ONC to become an Undergrad trainee, so off to Uni for 3 years. As I did the "practical"
route in, the BEng was pretty easy to start with apart from the maths as there was an assumption that you'd done A level maths and aced it...
As a result, the Hons part went by the wayside, and I came out with a stock Degree, yet no placements for me when I graduated. Scraped in by the skin
of my teeth only because someone else left (3 days before the job centre).
Has it opened doors? One job which was with 95% graduates drove me nuts - sitting in a cubicle writing software day in day out. One of the best jobs
I'd had almost didn't interview me because I HAD a degree - it was the Apprenticeship which saved the day (they liked "proper
engineers"..).
Seen the good and the bad - A level aces holding the tip of a soldering iron to steady their hand was a highlight
I was told to do A levels at school - i'd had enough and wanted to earn some cash and a trade (my Dad was an apprentice which may have swayed me
and he did alright).
Still doing related (Engineering) jobs 23 years after starting the apprenticeship. If they're the same these days, or just a rebadged YTS
though, I've no idea...?
Back to the OP:
The Caterham factory is literately at the end of my road. I see them everyday driving up and down the road to and from the M25 and new unregistered
ones getting petrol with trade plates on. The article has surprised me some what. I went to a very good (IMHO) tech grammar school approx 3 miles from
here. It has a machine work shop, does A level mechanical Engineering, Kart club, Hovercraft club, GCSE electronic engineering. . . . etc. I am
surprised there are not people around here that are interested. There are some quite good specialist manufacturers in this area too.
Comments on previous posts:
It’s great to see so many different and varied ways that people have made their way into engineering, actually very inspiring for me personally.
Dartford is not in the Midlands by the way!!!!
My Opinion:
My wife studied Mech Eng at Bath uni and got Honours, Bath is respected as one of, if not the best, for mech eng in the country. Yet she would not
have a clue how to use the most average of tooling equipment but could design one and do all the calcs for it. Just because she can not use one, does
not make her a bad engineer, just a poor machinist. I work in manufacturing and I have some very talented machinists and fabricators but my god don’t
let them put pen to paper.
I sit somewhere in the middle. I can use my hands and design to a good level. I have knowledge in most engineering fields. I fell into my current job
and am enjoying it. They don’t offer an apprenticeship scheme where I work so I asked to do Open University and am going to study engineering and
design subjects next year. They obviously won’t be hands on, that’s what I need to get from my 9-5. I may stay where I am, I may move on. All I know
is the more you can do and have done the more employable you are.
I read all 5 pages of posts regarding this. I hope someone reads mine!!!
Biz
I did the technical apprentice route. It really helped me because at the time I had no clue what I wanted to do, but was good with a variety of
mechanical and electrical stuff.
I wasn't expecting to have to use a hammer and cold chisel to put a flat on a piece of 2" mild steel bar on the first day and went home with
blistered and bleeding hands...
We also made the mistake one year of complaining the workshop was cold. "Right lads" said one of the instructors "outside with you, go
for a run around the lake and back. That'll warm you up!"
Four years later I came out with the ability to drive a drawing board designing control systems.
The great thing about it was the rotation through all the departments on site (ICI) and gaining knowledge and experience from some great practical
engineers.
I would recommend the apprentice route highly.
I feel that the point being missed i feel is that there is a big difference in content between a decent engineering course and an apprenticeship. They
are suited to very different types of people who, most of the time, end up in very different roles at the end of it. One isn't really an
alternative to the other.
The murkiness appears with university engineering courses that are being aimed at those who would be more at home doing an apprenticeship, but has the
value of neither.
[Edited on 21-6-12 by phelpsa]