Stott
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| posted on 17/6/12 at 12:39 PM |
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I came straight out of school at 15 and did 2 apprenticeships in a row, 32 now, always been employed, have done ok really, got my own place 8 years
ago, got a few cars, got a few kids, got married, I'd recommend it (apprenticeships that is- not wives and kids  )
When I came to leaving school I thought "I need money to get fast cars-now" so I though sod uni and went into employment instead. 
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franky
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| posted on 17/6/12 at 01:10 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by phelpsa
quote:
Originally posted by franky
quote:
Originally posted by phelpsa
A lot (if not most) of the very best engineering students graduate with little to no hands on experience
Based on what exactly?
Based on coming from an engineering family, working in an engineering environment that takes on a lot of graduate engineers and being mid way through
an MEng course.
I can guarantee you that very few of the medical engineers that graduate from my course have ever installed a hip. Very few of the aerospace engineers
have ever dismantled a plane. Very few of the systems&control engineers have ever fiddled around with a computer. The automotive engineers are
lucky with the Formula Student, but only a very small number actually get involved with the building of the car.
They've all had a training session on a mill but that isn't exactly relevant to what they will be doing.
Hands on experience just isn't required for the majority of engineering practices these days. Of course, its a good thing to have and will set
you apart from other students, but not a necessity.
That may be the case in your field, not the case in most other engineering ones. As someone who has interviewed for high level engineering jobs the
best people we see and that show the most ability when under pressure are those that have done both, people who have only ever practiced theory tend
to struggle with the practical aspects. Having proper knowledge of the practical aspects allows them to think better/quicker and design smarter.
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femster87
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| posted on 17/6/12 at 01:11 PM |
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It all depends on what your personal. preference. You can earn good money doing any of the 2. I work in a big company and there are some clever
cookies out there. Some progressed via the apprenticeship route, some came from Universities. Everybody detest each other. Its always us and them.
Cause they think grads have an unfair advantage. whilst I understand some grads come across as cockey, I think its just a defence mechanism to sustain
them till the understand what they are doing on plant. Lets be honest working in industry is not fun. Some People make it their role in life to trip
you up and say look at the dumb new graduate u just employed. I had a year of it when i started. End of the day, you have spent years in an enclosed
sheltered environment learning the theory of things. its not meant to be for practical experience. Your supposed to get that at work
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phelpsa
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| posted on 17/6/12 at 01:30 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by franky
That may be the case in your field, not the case in most other engineering ones. As someone who has interviewed for high level engineering jobs the
best people we see and that show the most ability when under pressure are those that have done both, people who have only ever practiced theory tend
to struggle with the practical aspects. Having proper knowledge of the practical aspects allows them to think better/quicker and design smarter.
And that is why I suspect you didn't put graduate engineers in your high level engineering jobs.
Being a top graduate engineer does not make you the best engineer. That comes once you gain the experience. Getting practical experience in most
engineering fields as a student is very difficult and something that is usually gained in a graduate job position.
[Edited on 17-6-12 by phelpsa]
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Dick Axtell
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| posted on 17/6/12 at 02:30 PM |
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Sandwich Courses??
Whatever happened to the idea of mixing the academic theoretical side of engineering education, with the practical? My apprenticeship was in the early
60s, and I recall quite a few sandwich courses. Students attended uni/college for 6 months, then went into industry for the next 6 months, and this
was repeated until their course finished.
Some of my fellow apprentices did B. Eng (Bradford), others did HND. Older ex-apprentices may recall Dip. Tech., which was then a 4-year course, in
sandwich form. Since the institutions offering this qualification have become universities (circa 1966), it has become B.Sc.
Is there any such approach to technical education these days?
Work-in-Progress: Changed to Zetec + T9. Still trying!!
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parkiboy
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| posted on 17/6/12 at 02:31 PM |
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My dad has been in the motortrade his whole life and advised against it, i ended up doing an apprenticeship to become an electrician despite having
the brains and qualifications to go to uni, the reason i decided against uni is i knew a hell of alot of people who went uni and couldnt get anything
with there degree and ended up doing jobs you could do from school, everyone of my mates who went to uni are now in that situation.
By doing and apprentaship and not going to uni i am alot better off than my mates who did go to uni, however if i did it again i would have ignored my
dad become a mechanic and then gone to the university of motorsport (which i didnt realise existed until recently)
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D Beddows
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| posted on 17/6/12 at 03:02 PM |
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quote:
Is there any such approach to technical education these days?
Not really because Health and Safety b*llocks has pretty much stopped you doing anything practical at University  I've got a BEng (Hons) in
Automotive Engineering from Bolton and they had room after room of interesting machines to play with which pretty much no one ever used. In fact
several people who graduated had no real understanding of how a car actually worked..........
I've got mixed opinions about Engineering degrees - obviously having a degree opens doors and as long as you realise you actually know nothing
you'll be alright. University's always say 'oh yes, the minimum wage you can expect will be x thousand' BUT you have to get a
job first and that's not always a given nowadays. I never really got a proper job in engineering (being 31 when I graduated had a bit to do with
that I believe) but having a degree got me places I couldn't have got without one and which got me a job in the end. Thankfully I discovered at
university that CAD for me is one of those things you sometimes just 'get' and I have worked in the Construction industry for the past 12
years as a glorified Cad Monkey - not what I expected tbh but I enjoy the job so all well that ends well etc etc
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vanepico
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| posted on 17/6/12 at 04:05 PM |
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I'm hoping before I finish my degree I will be able to add to my CV "Constructed home built road legal 2 seater sports car, using skills
such as composites, welding and machining/fabrication" and maybe extreme wallet exercises
I think it is safe to say anyone on this forum has at least used a pillar drill once.
I took a very funny route of school, college (btec national diploma in engineering) then university, and for most of the time I was repeating all the
stuff I had done at college, at uni (stuff like pneumatics, hydraulics etc), minus the actual use of machinery. And for something to be done at
college but not university. The whole reason I thought about doing uni was because I thought we would be making stuff but alas you bloody well
don't!
I must be the opposite to just about everyone else, I cannot stand the tedium of several thousands of equations, give me an engineering drawing and
some metal and I'll make it for you!
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Wheels244
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| posted on 17/6/12 at 04:36 PM |
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We used to get Graduates come into our works on accelerated
promotion - coming in at Foreman level. Our works was massive employing nearly 3000 people with the vast majority
being time served craftsmen of all disciplines, including the dying art of blacksmiths.
I think it's fair to say the Graduates didn't know their arse from a hole in the ground - both in terms
of practical engineering knowledge or man management. This wasn't their fault - just the way it was, dumped in charge of men with
no management experience and only theoretical knowledge to fall back on.
I was apprentice to a very knowledgeable and experienced craftsman and I asked his opinion
of the Graduates we got - his response '' lighthouses in the desert lad - bright but f*ck all use''
Before anyone gets out of their pram, I'm sure that's not the case of the people on here.
A healthy balance of practical ability and experience backed with theoretical knowledge make the best engineers in my opinion.
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phelpsa
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| posted on 17/6/12 at 04:36 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by vanepico
I'm hoping before I finish my degree I will be able to add to my CV "Constructed home built road legal 2 seater sports car, using skills
such as composites, welding and machining/fabrication" and maybe extreme wallet exercises
I think it is safe to say anyone on this forum has at least used a pillar drill once.
I took a very funny route of school, college (btec national diploma in engineering) then university, and for most of the time I was repeating all the
stuff I had done at college, at uni (stuff like pneumatics, hydraulics etc), minus the actual use of machinery. And for something to be done at
college but not university. The whole reason I thought about doing uni was because I thought we would be making stuff but alas you bloody well
don't!
I must be the opposite to just about everyone else, I cannot stand the tedium of several thousands of equations, give me an engineering drawing and
some metal and I'll make it for you!
Doing an Engineering degree probably isn't the right route for you then
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vanepico
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| posted on 17/6/12 at 05:15 PM |
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I managed to scrape the first year, second year I just have a maths retake to do in July. I got a first in engineering design though!
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Toprivetguns
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| posted on 17/6/12 at 05:23 PM |
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I started my Aircraft apprenticeship when I was 18 and its the best thing Ive ever done !
Only drive as fast as your angel can fly... !
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D Beddows
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| posted on 17/6/12 at 06:00 PM |
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quote:
I managed to scrape the first year, second year I just have a maths retake to do in July. I got a first in engineering design though!
no, no you didn't and it's an important distinction - you didn't pass the year so you wouldn't get a 1st or anything close no
matter what marks you get in individual modules and potential employers will only judge you on your overall classification. If you can't do the
maths you wont get a good grade as it is pretty much THE most important thing - it doesn't matter if you can fabricate an F1 car in your sleep
tbh - I fell into that trap and from 'been there, done that' school of life experience it doesn't work, sorry
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vanepico
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| posted on 17/6/12 at 10:50 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by D Beddows
quote:
I managed to scrape the first year, second year I just have a maths retake to do in July. I got a first in engineering design though!
no, no you didn't and it's an important distinction - you didn't pass the year so you wouldn't get a 1st or anything close no
matter what marks you get in individual modules and potential employers will only judge you on your overall classification. If you can't do the
maths you wont get a good grade as it is pretty much THE most important thing - it doesn't matter if you can fabricate an F1 car in your sleep
tbh - I fell into that trap and from 'been there, done that' school of life experience it doesn't work, sorry
Yeah I've come to that conclusion, but there isn't a lot else I can do but get on with it and get a job that plays to my strengths,
starting to think I should have done an electrical engineering course, but thats a bit too geeky 
If I pass the retake I average 49.666667 which is rounded up to 50% which gives me a 2:2, I could have done so much better but I cocked up the
dynamics, I had 88% in the coursework
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A1
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| posted on 18/6/12 at 01:12 AM |
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thing is we need the uni folk, but we need engineers not (no offence to anyone) history of modern literature and art-media... Unfortunately lots of
people seem to do the latter, out of my friends I have one whos done electrical/mechanical engineering, and Ive got at least 2 friends!!! all the
rest are doing the same job as when they were in uni.
Id still personally do the apprenticeship route and get the real world experience, cause to me its more relevant. and the thought of just coming out
of uni now is a bad one. for one Id have no car and wouldnt be on this forum. for another I wouldnt have seen anything of the world.
but then its horses for courses innit?
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cliftyhanger
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| posted on 18/6/12 at 05:13 AM |
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Oh, we DO need people doing history, literature and so on.
Thing is, we only need the very brightest people to do them, not the vast numbers that are being churned through the university system, cynically to
hide youth unemployment.
30 years ago, I think the University numbers where about 10%? happy to be corrected.
today heading to 50%, but there are not 5 times as many graduate jobs out there. And what is worse, kids all believe the only route to a decent job is
via Uni. I see these kids at school, and I truly despair. The very few I come across who tell me they intend doing an apprenticeship (a very small
number, and they usually have a lot more sense) are surprised at how pleased I am for them.
I am terrified for my kids. Eldest is 17, struggling with her science A levels (despite straight A gcse's) and looking at University courses. I
am gently hinting about various apprenticeships that are available, and hoping she will pay some interest. Youger one (15) seems intent on becoming a
teacher, so that IS a Uni entry, and I believe she will be ideal for that career. Can't knock it, it has served me well. Besides, it is one of
the jobs where any country in the world will welcome you with open arms.
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40inches
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| posted on 18/6/12 at 07:21 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by cliftyhanger
Youger one (15) seems intent on becoming a teacher,so that IS a Uni entry , and I believe she will be ideal for that career. Can't knock
it, it has served me well. Besides, it is one of the jobs where any country in the world will welcome you with open arms.
Not true! My 17 year old son left school halfway through his A levels, to take an apprenticeship as a teacher at a primary school.
He has to go through various stages, including a stint at a secondary school, before he qualifies in around 6 years.
I have to say his decision took us totally by surprise, because he was a little bar steward at school
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DIY Si
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| posted on 18/6/12 at 09:02 AM |
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There's one thing many on here are forgetting due to our inherent love of cars.
Most people think cars are boring, are going to kill the planet and are just going to get ever more expensive. Most young(er) folk, and I'm 28,
just have no experience of kit/fast/race/classic cars any more. They're either too expensive to run, too expensive to buy or not suitable for
attracting the girls. And most young people can't insure them anyway.
“Let your plans be dark and as impenetratable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
Sun Tzu, The Art of War
My new blog: http://spritecave.blogspot.co.uk/
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 18/6/12 at 11:11 AM |
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I went to uni for about 18 months and dropped out, completely disillusioned by the course and a couple of the lecturers. I worked for a year or so
and then did an Apprenticeship at about 20 years old which was the start of a (so far) very successful career. I think an apprenticeship is very best
way to both gain a skill and education and also prove your worth to an employer as a younger person.
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morcus
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| posted on 19/6/12 at 12:17 AM |
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The 50% uni thing was a Labour Target set to cover up employment problems by taking people out of the work force, all it did was mean there are alot
of jobs you need a degree to be employed in but you really don't to actually do.
In a White Room, With Black Curtains, By the Station.
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ss1turbo
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| posted on 20/6/12 at 05:14 PM |
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About as many varied answers as I expected to see
Me - left school at 16 to be an Electronics Engineering Apprentice (stock 4 year course - year 1 @ college, broad spectrum engineering, years 2-4 day
release for ONC then HNC). Suitables grades after ONC to become an Undergrad trainee, so off to Uni for 3 years. As I did the
"practical" route in, the BEng was pretty easy to start with apart from the maths as there was an assumption that you'd done A level
maths and aced it...
As a result, the Hons part went by the wayside, and I came out with a stock Degree, yet no placements for me when I graduated. Scraped in by the skin
of my teeth only because someone else left (3 days before the job centre).
Has it opened doors? One job which was with 95% graduates drove me nuts - sitting in a cubicle writing software day in day out. One of the best jobs
I'd had almost didn't interview me because I HAD a degree - it was the Apprenticeship which saved the day (they liked "proper
engineers"..).
Seen the good and the bad - A level aces holding the tip of a soldering iron to steady their hand was a highlight
I was told to do A levels at school - i'd had enough and wanted to earn some cash and a trade (my Dad was an apprentice which may have swayed me
and he did alright).
Still doing related (Engineering) jobs 23 years after starting the apprenticeship. If they're the same these days, or just a rebadged YTS
though, I've no idea...?
Long live RWD...
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bi22le
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| posted on 20/6/12 at 06:09 PM |
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Back to the OP:
The Caterham factory is literately at the end of my road. I see them everyday driving up and down the road to and from the M25 and new unregistered
ones getting petrol with trade plates on. The article has surprised me some what. I went to a very good (IMHO) tech grammar school approx 3 miles from
here. It has a machine work shop, does A level mechanical Engineering, Kart club, Hovercraft club, GCSE electronic engineering. . . . etc. I am
surprised there are not people around here that are interested. There are some quite good specialist manufacturers in this area too.
Comments on previous posts:
It’s great to see so many different and varied ways that people have made their way into engineering, actually very inspiring for me personally.
Dartford is not in the Midlands by the way!!!!
My Opinion:
My wife studied Mech Eng at Bath uni and got Honours, Bath is respected as one of, if not the best, for mech eng in the country. Yet she would not
have a clue how to use the most average of tooling equipment but could design one and do all the calcs for it. Just because she can not use one, does
not make her a bad engineer, just a poor machinist. I work in manufacturing and I have some very talented machinists and fabricators but my god don’t
let them put pen to paper.
I sit somewhere in the middle. I can use my hands and design to a good level. I have knowledge in most engineering fields. I fell into my current job
and am enjoying it. They don’t offer an apprenticeship scheme where I work so I asked to do Open University and am going to study engineering and
design subjects next year. They obviously won’t be hands on, that’s what I need to get from my 9-5. I may stay where I am, I may move on. All I know
is the more you can do and have done the more employable you are.
I read all 5 pages of posts regarding this. I hope someone reads mine!!!
Biz
Track days ARE the best thing since sliced bread, until I get a supercharger that is!
Please read my ring story:
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/13/viewthread.php?tid=139152&page=1
Me doing a sub 56sec lap around Brands Indy. I need a geo set up! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHksfvIGB3I
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Xtreme Kermit
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| posted on 20/6/12 at 07:11 PM |
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I did the technical apprentice route. It really helped me because at the time I had no clue what I wanted to do, but was good with a variety of
mechanical and electrical stuff.
I wasn't expecting to have to use a hammer and cold chisel to put a flat on a piece of 2" mild steel bar on the first day and went home
with blistered and bleeding hands...
We also made the mistake one year of complaining the workshop was cold. "Right lads" said one of the instructors "outside with you,
go for a run around the lake and back. That'll warm you up!"
Four years later I came out with the ability to drive a drawing board designing control systems.
The great thing about it was the rotation through all the departments on site (ICI) and gaining knowledge and experience from some great practical
engineers.
I would recommend the apprentice route highly.
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phelpsa
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| posted on 21/6/12 at 08:20 PM |
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I feel that the point being missed i feel is that there is a big difference in content between a decent engineering course and an apprenticeship. They
are suited to very different types of people who, most of the time, end up in very different roles at the end of it. One isn't really an
alternative to the other.
The murkiness appears with university engineering courses that are being aimed at those who would be more at home doing an apprenticeship, but has the
value of neither.
[Edited on 21-6-12 by phelpsa]
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