Printable Version | Subscribe | Add to Favourites
<<  1    2  >>
New Topic New Poll New Reply
Author: Subject: Religious Fundamentalism and Creationism
flak monkey

posted on 3/1/06 at 11:57 AM Reply With Quote
Religious Fundamentalism and Creationism

Before I get started I want to make it clear that I am not having a dig at religion (I am after all a Christian) or at the Americans...

I have just started reading a rather interesting book and whilst reading it I picked up a fact that rather shocked me.

44% of the American population believes in the creationism theory. I.e. that humans appeared (were created as is by God) on earth 10,000 years ago, in our current form. Totally rejecting evolution theory. (Amongst teenagers the figure was 38%)

Only 10% (1 in 10) actually believe in Darwins theory of evolution! With the rest believing a combination of the ideas.

This comes as rather a shock to me to be quite honest, and shows just how religiously fundamentalist Americans as a nation are. Now I am not saying that we dont have the same people in the UK or anywhere else in the world, just thos percentages seem awfully high especially with the almost irrefutable scientific evidence for evolution.

David





Sera

http://www.motosera.com

View User's Profile Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member
bigandy

posted on 3/1/06 at 12:49 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
almost irrefutable scientific evidence for evolution.

David


Didn't the great scientific minds once beleive (and state as fact) that the earth was indeed flat?



Cheers
Andy





Dammit! Too many decisions....

View User's Profile E-Mail User View All Posts By User U2U Member
smart51

posted on 3/1/06 at 01:00 PM Reply With Quote
Americans (And I'm not being racist here) often see things as very right or very wrong with little room inbetween. Creationists tend to believe that there is absolutley no evolution and evolutionists believe that there is absolutley no creation.

Darwin observed that young of plants and animals take after thier parents and that survival pressures lead to changes in the population thatcan give rise to the evolution of different sub-spicies. For example if a population of animal is subject to food shortages at ground level then only the tall survive long enough to breed. They have tall young who have tall young leading to a tall race of animals. If on another island, the same type of animal is hunted by a preditor who can only see animals who can't hide in the grass then only the short ones live long enough to breed giving a short population. Darwin extrapolated this to give his theory of evolution. This hasn't been proven, contrary to popular beilef becaus to do so would take a geological time scale.

There is a Judaeo-Christian train of thought that if evolution exists, it does so because God made it that way. Americans don't like this idea because it doesn't fit into their binary model of extremes even though there is nothing in either philosophy that says is cannot be true.

The Bibe is an ancient eastern book, not a modern western one. Ancient writers thought that a cronological, literal way of writing was very childish. Their writing often speaks through simily or alogory. A 12 step process will be conveyed using months of the year or a 4 step story using the seasons. It is more likely than not that the 7 day creation story represents the 7 step process of the creation rather than it taking literally 168 hours. This too doesn't fit into the American mould.

A more enlightened view of creation would be that God created the universe in the six (actually) steps as described in the bible leading ultimatly to the creation of stars, planets, plant, bird, sea and animal life with mankind at the top of creation. How that was done is not described by the Bible. It could well have been a big bang followed by evolution. Interestingly, the latest scientific account of the creation of the universe and human life follows the same steps as the Bible in the same order. There is nothing in either theory that contradicts the other.

The bible says why it was done and science says how. Neather account gives us a full account and that is why there is so much question over the whole subject.

[Edited on 3-1-2006 by smart51]

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
The Shootist

posted on 3/1/06 at 06:18 PM Reply With Quote
Frankly I doubt the book...

Those figures are way too high for the folks that I know.

Of course the numbers are most likely skewed to give the result that the writer wishes to convey.

I work in Quality Control and use statistics all the time. We have a saying..."If you torture the data long enough, it will confess."

[Edited on 1/3/06 by The Shootist]

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
JoelP

posted on 3/1/06 at 06:52 PM Reply With Quote
an interesting addition to smarts excellent post, is that there is proof that evolution can occur. You can take bacteria on a petri dish, pick a strain that cannot live off a particular type of sugar, then add mutagens and gradually drop the amounts of their preferred sugar and increase the one they cant use, and eventually you can wean them onto the new one. Subsequent genetic analysis reveals that another enzyme has been constructively mutated and selected for, allowing a new strain to come about. Sequencing the relevant gene, you can then develop 3d models of the protein in question and see exactly what has changed and how it made a difference - the latter part nowt to do with evolution, but very interesting nevertheless

What strikes me as an example of UK and US differences is that in America, schools cannot teach any religion at all, whereas in the UK schools have to engage in worship weekly apparently.






View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
Peteff

posted on 3/1/06 at 08:54 PM Reply With Quote
"If you torture the data long enough, it will confess."

Or as we say, "Bah, you can prove anything with facts". Joel, I have some cheese in the fridge which is proving the evolution theory as we sit here now. It's growing a coat to combat the cold in there, which I think is absolute proof .





yours, Pete

I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
derf

posted on 3/1/06 at 09:40 PM Reply With Quote
Yeh those figures are way too high, i work in a church and most here dont believe in pure creationism.

Personally, creationism and evolution are the same thing. My thoughts, darwin is right, evolution created the world we live in today, with god as the designing factor over the long haul.

Read a book a while back that has some decent "proof" of the 10 plauges in egypt, and shows how it would have been possible, and points out modern times and dates where one or a few of the 10 plauges have come at the same time. Anyway 10 plauges in order:

The rainy season in somalia caused the nile river to run red b(1) with red soil (looks like blood), causing all the frogs out of the river (2), letting the fly population explode (3), animals would have been traveling north along the nile looking for fresh water (4), causing disease, specifically anthrax, killed animals (5), and put boils on people (6). Hail actually can happen in egypt at any time (7), which would cause the locust massive locust colony movements to the east(8), And it would also bring clouds to a generally sunny area (9). then the jews under direction from god went out and killed the 1st born of every household not marked (10)

To people who have little undersanding of science this would have looked like a set of miracles that took place over a year or more of time.

Even the part of moses splitting the red sea happened recently. a dry season many years ago dropped the level of the nile in a few places where it was only a few feet deep alowing people to cross on foot, Napoleon used this when he went to egypt, why couldnt the isrealaties on their way out of egypt.

Now I know it seems like quite a stretch that all these things happened in a row at the same time, or even in a few years time period. the writers of the modern bible have probaly changed it around so much that it only resembles the original stories.

Anyway to make my point what if God set up the world like a domino set so that you touch 1 and the rest is just a chain reaction knocking them all down. Everything could have been put into play millions of years ago just for that 1 moment to happen.

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
JoelP

posted on 3/1/06 at 10:28 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by derf
Anyway to make my point what if God set up the world like a domino set so that you touch 1 and the rest is just a chain reaction knocking them all down. Everything could have been put into play millions of years ago just for that 1 moment to happen.


i can live with that, if i whack a white ball down a piece of felt covered slate with a stick, i take full credit for all the balls that fall off that table.






View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
steve_gus

posted on 3/1/06 at 11:01 PM Reply With Quote
when I was at school (left 30 fooking years ago!) we had a religious assembly EVERY MORNING wether you wer balck, white christian, jewish or Jedi. (ok, not Jedi as star wars wasnt out for 2 years then)


The bacterial mutation is sadly what chicken flu will use to get at us .........


atb

steve


PS to Derf's post - if the jews went around killing all the first borns as god told them to, isnt this

A. Psychopathic
B. Against 'thou shalt not kill'
C. The jews using violence against arabs
D. A bit difficult - did they say 'hey' are you the eldest son' before they cakked them?

or E

another hard to substantiate bit of fiction from what is the old testament.







quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
an interesting addition to smarts excellent post, is that there is proof that evolution can occur. You can take bacteria on a petri dish, pick a strain that cannot live off a particular type of sugar, then add mutagens and gradually drop the amounts of their preferred sugar and increase the one they cant use, and eventually you can wean them onto the new one. Subsequent genetic analysis reveals that another enzyme has been constructively mutated and selected for, allowing a new strain to come about. Sequencing the relevant gene, you can then develop 3d models of the protein in question and see exactly what has changed and how it made a difference - the latter part nowt to do with evolution, but very interesting nevertheless

What strikes me as an example of UK and US differences is that in America, schools cannot teach any religion at all, whereas in the UK schools have to engage in worship weekly apparently.


[Edited on 3/1/06 by steve_gus]





http://www.locostbuilder.co.uk

Just knock off the 's'!

View User's Profile E-Mail User Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member
JoelP

posted on 3/1/06 at 11:03 PM Reply With Quote
i suppose virus' are an even better example, but its not as easy to see in a lab






View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
carcentric

posted on 4/1/06 at 05:42 AM Reply With Quote
Three questions

I'm sure glad this topic came up - I've had three questions about evolution for the longest time and no one's had any quality responses. Perhaps one (or more) of you can answer them.

1) The theory of evolution seems to apply only to "living organisms." I believe I heard somewhere that the first living organisms emerged from certain nonliving molecules and a set of temperature, light, etc., conditions. How was the first organism more "fit" (as in survival of the fittest) than the chemicals it came from? And how was "being alive" more fit than just being (a molecule)?

2) More relevant to this forum (!), how was the first two-sex organism more fit than its single-sex (self-impregnating) parent organism? And what good would it have been to be the first two-sex organism if it would be scores of generations before a "mate" of the opposite sex evolved through another random event? Talk about a long dry spell . . . .

3) What caused the big bang that created the universe, solar systems, planets, etc.? Evolution would suggest that the big bang was more fit than . . . what, the little bang?

M.





M D "Doc" Nugent
http://www.carcentric.com

View User's Profile Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member
steve_gus

posted on 4/1/06 at 06:55 PM Reply With Quote
to be more fundamental....

what created god?

atb

steve





http://www.locostbuilder.co.uk

Just knock off the 's'!

View User's Profile E-Mail User Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member
smart51

posted on 4/1/06 at 07:37 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by steve_gus
what created god?


The Torah, to Jews Christians and Muslims at least, is the only real source on the subject. It says that God has always existed and will always exist. The rational is that God existed before the creation of time (or space time if you prefer) and will continue to exist after time has ceased to be. If God exists for longer than the whole duration of time, how do you measure his age?

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
steve_gus

posted on 4/1/06 at 07:59 PM Reply With Quote
thats just a cop-out tho isnt it? the sort of answer you would give to a kid cos you dont know the answer.

the chicken exists cos the egg always has and always will do.

looks a bit of a crap answer if put in those terms.


I read a while back (bbc web site) that perhaps the answer is that mankind doesnt actually have the mental capacity and understanding to actually know how and why creation came about. It would perhaps be a bit arrogant to feel we could know everything?



atb

steve


[Edited on 4/1/06 by steve_gus]





http://www.locostbuilder.co.uk

Just knock off the 's'!

View User's Profile E-Mail User Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member
jon_boy

posted on 4/1/06 at 08:08 PM Reply With Quote
Isnt it wierd how they only worshipped and made godly things they didnt understand ie With the greeks the gods of rain etc. Its just a way of rationalising things they didnt understand to make them less scary and easy to deal with. And some people wrote a book. Then they got a following by making people believe the book. Then they got power from the following. The church (for all gods) is now a very powerful institution, so much so that wars are fought for it, or at least in the name of it. Crazy huh. Yet if i said i saw a miracle everyone would kick my ass and call me crazy. Not all of the above are striclty my views, but there are some dubious things from the bible, ie all the contradictions that need explaining away until "but he is almighty" is the only answer
View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
I love speed :-P

posted on 4/1/06 at 08:16 PM Reply With Quote
The one thing i never understood was the fact about her being a virgin and having a baby, if your daughter came home and said she was going to have a baby and she siad she hadnt has sex and it was the sun of god would you believe her?





Don't Steal
The Government doesn’t like the competition

View User's Profile E-Mail User Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member
flak monkey

posted on 4/1/06 at 08:33 PM Reply With Quote
Just thought I would point out the book in question is 'The Story of God' by Robert Winston. Some of you may have seen the TV series on BBC recently.

Some of the responses have been rather interesting I must admit, and I am not going to go into what I think the answers are to each one as religion is a personal thing at the end of the day, its up to you to decide the what you feel the answers are to your questions. The only requirement of any religion is to believe in your God(s), where you take it after that is pretty much up to you. Even if you never take the step to actually having any faith, and just stick at the belief thats fine. Likewise if you choose to not even believe then thats fine too. Isnt free will a wonderful thing? The only people I personally take issue with are religious fundamentalists, who are an extrememly scarey group of individuals!

If you want a really scarey religion look into Islam, now thats a very worrying faith as a Christian... That statement is not a racist one, just an observation!

David





Sera

http://www.motosera.com

View User's Profile Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member
JoelP

posted on 4/1/06 at 09:11 PM Reply With Quote
I'll take a shot at a few of these

quote:
Originally posted by carcentric
I'm sure glad this topic came up - I've had three questions about evolution for the longest time and no one's had any quality responses. Perhaps one (or more) of you can answer them.

1) The theory of evolution seems to apply only to "living organisms." I believe I heard somewhere that the first living organisms emerged from certain nonliving molecules and a set of temperature, light, etc., conditions. How was the first organism more "fit" (as in survival of the fittest) than the chemicals it came from? And how was "being alive" more fit than just being (a molecule)?




Its less a matter of fit, and more a matter or 'likely to reproduce'. Sounds bizzare, but some molecules can string together other molecules. This is one area thats far from explained, but there are prions (lifeforms made of protein alone, with no DNA) that can reproduce alone. Not sure of the mechanism so i wont argue too hard for it

quote:


2) More relevant to this forum (!), how was the first two-sex organism more fit than its single-sex (self-impregnating) parent organism? And what good would it have been to be the first two-sex organism if it would be scores of generations before a "mate" of the opposite sex evolved through another random event? Talk about a long dry spell . . . .



Sexual organisms have the advantage of being able to rearrange their genetic material more each generation, allowing more chance of a canny offspring coming along. Sex is less about sex organs and more about genetic markers. In humans, there is an x chromosome and a y chromosome, these code the differences between man and woman. Apparently the x chromosome is shrinking, and as it becomes less powerful over thousands of years, selection pressure will force the migration of key genes onto difference chromosomes and another marker will arise.

quote:

3) What caused the big bang that created the universe, solar systems, planets, etc.? Evolution would suggest that the big bang was more fit than . . . what, the little bang?

M.


thats obvious, stupid! God created the big bang There can be no creation without a creator.






View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
steve_gus

posted on 4/1/06 at 11:00 PM Reply With Quote
when my wife did a sociology course many years back, they put forward an interesting view on why religion had a place in society as a means of control.

I dont think anyone can deny that virtually every religion seeks to control those that follow it.

The theory goes that 100s of years ago, (as is still the case now!) there was a crap life for some, and a great life for the rich. But, if you were good, meek, and went on with your lot, one day you would get your rewards in heaven.

The alternative view is that all there is, is now. So take what you can and dont put up with any crap cos this life is all you have. Thats the fodder of revolution.

A view is that there is indeed nothing after this life. People dont much like the idea that death is the end of things, so they look for other explanations. One being that there is an afterlife. Some religions you stay in it, others (like buddism) you keep coming back for more and are continually reborn. To my point of view, thats a bit of a waste of time. I am what i am cos of my personality, and have my family, house , job, car - my general lot. It doesnt much matter to me what I was before, or what I might be in the future. Cos I wont remember what I am now, so therefore to all purposes, i would be dead. So, Im not a buddist!

Religion also gives people hope that their loved ones are not lost forever, and that those that die a terrible death do have something else to come. That those starving in africa do in fact have a nice sunny place in the afterlife amd not just a painful wasting death, and that girls raped and murdered by bastards in Thailand havnt come to an abrupt end with nothing but darkness to come.

One of the most depressing and thoughtful lyrics ive ever heard in a song is by Chris Rea. Its called 'tell me theres a heaven'. I think its very thought provoking and a strong reason why people WANT there to be a god, and an afterlife.

Id like it to be the case, have an open mind.......


The little girl she said to me
"What are these things that I can see
Each night when I come home from school
When mama calls me in for tea?"
Oh every night a baby dies
And every night a mama cries
What makes those men do what they do
To make that person black and blue
Grandpa says they're happy now
They sit with God in paradise
With angel's wings and still somehow
It makes me feel
Like Ice
Tell me there's heaven
Tell me that it's true
Tell me there's a reason
Why I'm seeing what I do
Tell me there's heaven
Where all those people go
Tell me that they're happy now
Papa tell me that it's so
So do I tell here that it's true
That there's place for me and you
Where hungry children smile and say
"We wouldn't have no other way"
That every painful crack of bones is a step along the way
Every wrong done is a game plan
To that great and joyful day
And I'm looking at the father and the son
And I'm looking at the mother and the daughter
And I'm watching them in tears of pain
And I'm watching them suffer
Don't tell that little girl
Tell me
Tell me there's heaven
Tell me that it's true
Tell me there's a reason
Why I'm seeing what I do
Tell me there's heaven
Where all those people go
Tell me that they're happy now
Papa tell me that it's so




atb

steve





http://www.locostbuilder.co.uk

Just knock off the 's'!

View User's Profile E-Mail User Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member
Bigfoot

posted on 5/1/06 at 11:01 AM Reply With Quote
Religion is the most common mental illness in the world.

I sometimes wish I was afflicted with the condition, it must be a very comforting to believe such things, however ridiculous.

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
Jasper

posted on 5/1/06 at 12:01 PM Reply With Quote
I watched the programme with Winston - fascinating stuff. I loved the part where he was with the Christian Fundamentalist in the radio station and the other guy would not even entertain any views that were not expressly stated in the bible. Winson (a Christian for those of you who didn't know) then asked him if he was circumsized as this is stated as a 'must' in the old testament too and the guy AND the radio DJ just ignored him completely and talked over him.

Interestingly enough the one thing that Winston said which stuck with me went along the lines of 'the difference between you and me (the fundamentalist creationist) is that I will enterain ALL ideas regarding our history and past and look at them all with objectivity and yet you will not under and circumstances. That for me in a great example of the definition of fundamentalism.

Do get me wrong, I'm not anti religion, just anti any form of fundamentalism. My grandmother-in-law is a Christian Scientist and you cannot discuss anything with her that she disagrees with. All elements and ideas from her religion are treated as absolute FACT and are not up for any sort of discussion. All things that happen in her life are 'fitted in' to her ideas of how things are.

My personal feelig is that religion has done far more harm than good during the last few thousand years and is still the basis of most of the problem in the word today. I have no time for it whatsoever - it all just seems, as somebody else has already stated - as a means of those in power having control over the rest of the population.

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
JoelP

posted on 5/1/06 at 06:27 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jasper
My personal feelig is that religion has done far more harm than good during the last few thousand years and is still the basis of most of the problem in the word today. I have no time for it whatsoever - it all just seems, as somebody else has already stated - as a means of those in power having control over the rest of the population.


this may well be true, as many wars have been fought in the names of many religions, however you will find that most faiths teach peace. The wars are usually fought by the misguided, even if sometimes the misguided includes the heads of religion.

Many religious people are bad people, and many unbelievers are good at heart, so if there is a god, judgement day is going to be a headache! Its funny that you could follow the teachings of a religion just because they are right, and never believe in god, or you could go to church daily and pray hourly, and still sin every minute.






View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
quattromike

posted on 5/1/06 at 07:23 PM Reply With Quote
AMEN

Mike

View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
steve_gus

posted on 5/1/06 at 07:45 PM Reply With Quote
As God requires faith of believers, he doesnt give proof or otherwise of his existance. It is up to us to have that faith and believe.

So......

Anything stated in any religious book, or any belief, cannot come directly from God. It must therefore have come from man.

So, Moses goes up this mountain, no witnesses, then comes back down with a whole bunch of rules. Surely he didnt make them up himself......

I also feel it extremely arrogant of the catholic church that they can A. actually thinkg they can elects someone who is in touch with God and is his earthly representative and B. Have the power to excommunicate people from God. How exactly did God ceed that power if he cant give prrof positive that he exists?

atb

steve





http://www.locostbuilder.co.uk

Just knock off the 's'!

View User's Profile E-Mail User Visit User's Homepage View All Posts By User U2U Member
JoelP

posted on 5/1/06 at 08:07 PM Reply With Quote
i have many problems with the catholic church, both for your reasons and the praying to mary bit.






View User's Profile View All Posts By User U2U Member
<<  1    2  >>
New Topic New Poll New Reply


go to top






Website design and SEO by Studio Montage

All content © 2001-16 LocostBuilders. Reproduction prohibited
Opinions expressed in public posts are those of the author and do not necessarily represent
the views of other users or any member of the LocostBuilders team.
Running XMB 1.8 Partagium [© 2002 XMB Group] on Apache under CentOS Linux
Founded, built and operated by ChrisW.