Hello,
I am seriously looking at buying a ready-built car, with the view to making it a hobby, therefore wanting to develop a fire-breathing monster, funds
allowing!
My question is:
Out of the box, which kit manufacturer has the best chassis to cope with high power levels? I am looking at tigers and Robin Hoods at the moment, but
will consider anything except Westys or Caterhams as they are too expensive second- hand!!
Another question:
Has anyone exploited the 2.5l turbo Duratec yet, as they must be getting available used by now? will they physically fit into a typical '7'
type engine bay??
I am considering a RH with a Rover T series turbo engine, but am put off by research saying these engines need big money to make them powerful!
Any comments gratefully received, as knowledge is power!!!
Ta
Andy
Buy Simons car for sale on here, 3.9 EFI rover so already approaching 200bhp, easy to add another 100bhp on these and you will have £££ to play
with.
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/52/viewthread.php?tid=166006
Regards Mark
[Edited on 4/2/12 by mark chandler]
Pond, use the search function to look for builders already using the duratec.
Robin hoods, except the Zero (now they are GBS), are heavy and not the best designed chassis in fact some are dreadful.
Tiger are fine (afaik) excepting some dodgy bodywork fit.
Most of the others are very similar in general, with procomp (which you're unlikely to find many of second hand) or MNR are probably the best of
the rest.
Dax get some very big powerful engines fitted, but again not cheap second hand.
BUT a Caterham, and to a slightly lesser extent Westfield, keep their value much better so if/when you sell you'll get more of your money back
again.
Simon's car is extremely good value if you want to go the v8 route to power.
quote:
Originally posted by pond
Hello,
I am seriously looking at buying a ready-built car, with the view to making it a hobby, therefore wanting to develop a fire-breathing monster, funds allowing!
My question is:
Out of the box, which kit manufacturer has the best chassis to cope with high power levels? I am looking at tigers and Robin Hoods at the moment, but will consider anything except Westys or Caterhams as they are too expensive second- hand!!
Another question:
Has anyone exploited the 2.5l turbo Duratec yet, as they must be getting available used by now? will they physically fit into a typical '7' type engine bay??
I am considering a RH with a Rover T series turbo engine, but am put off by research saying these engines need big money to make them powerful!
Any comments gratefully received, as knowledge is power!!!
Ta
Andy
quote:
Originally posted by phelpsa
quote:
Originally posted by pond
Hello,
I am seriously looking at buying a ready-built car, with the view to making it a hobby, therefore wanting to develop a fire-breathing monster, funds allowing!
My question is:
Out of the box, which kit manufacturer has the best chassis to cope with high power levels? I am looking at tigers and Robin Hoods at the moment, but will consider anything except Westys or Caterhams as they are too expensive second- hand!!
Another question:
Has anyone exploited the 2.5l turbo Duratec yet, as they must be getting available used by now? will they physically fit into a typical '7' type engine bay??
I am considering a RH with a Rover T series turbo engine, but am put off by research saying these engines need big money to make them powerful!
Any comments gratefully received, as knowledge is power!!!
Ta
Andy
Is the 2.5l turbo "duratec" you talk of actually the volvo engine?
^^ I would also think the engine your on about ie the St and Rs 2.5 lump thats badged as a duratec is volvo bassed.
If its a volvo bell housing pattern then that will be the first thing to overcome.
What about the 2.3 turbo from the mazda 3 mps. That should mount to the 2.0 Duratec bellhousing and then to a beefed up T9.
People are now getting 500bhp out of zetec's. May be easier ?
Thanks for the replies.
I like the look of the 'home-made' car linked to in the first reply with the 3.9 rover V8!!
I have u2ued Simon to find out if it's still available as his fleabay ad finished yesterday.
I didn't know the 2.5T ford engine, yes the unit from the STs/ new mondeos etc, was a Volvo engine.
If you have not driven a 7 replica or even been in one, I would at least be a passenger in one before you commit.
150 bhp is a lot in a 7
200 bhp is exciting to say the least
300 bhp will take a particuly well set up car and a very good driver to tame
The Volvo 2.5 turbo can give 300 easy to 440 without to much trouble.
If the wheels spin in all gears most of the time and light upon the corners it's not fun anymore
IMHO
Id go with Snappers advise
if its your "first" kit car then aim for about 150-180bhp, thats plenty to get yourself into trouble 
i started out with that much power and then got bored so i then changed the engine and got myself 321bhp and it then turns the car into a rocket thats
too fast for road use, with the lower hp engine you could use more of the engine all the time where with the higher hp you had to be sure it was safe
to floor it
quote:
Originally posted by snapper
If the wheels spin in all gears most of the time and light upon the corners it's not fun anymore
IMHO
I'd agree with Snapper. Any more than 200-250 bhp will need smooth roads and a good driver to exploit. I found my old 160 bhp BEC to be all I
could put down on the bumpy roads round my way, and more than enough at times. Despite a lack of torque, it was always fun in the wet!
A well set up car will allow you to travel faster with less speed and get more enjoyment out of the finished car.
What makes you want a fire breathing monster? Do you want high power mainly for the fun of it, or do you want a fast car?
Any 7 will out handle 95+% of anything of the road regardless of power levels.
I started out wanting the most power I could get out of my wallet
Ended up detuning it by ditching the webers and fitting injection. Still 150bhp in a 600kg car.
If you are looking for out and out speed a bike engined car is hard to match. On most tracks it will leave most cars behind. For road use you will not be able to exploit massive power legaly. As said try before you buy. A 1300 seven will leave a lot of cars standing.
quote:
Originally posted by DIY Si
What makes you want a fire breathing monster? Do you want high power mainly for the fun of it, or do you want a fast car?quote:
Mainly for the fun of it!
I have never even been in a '7', so at the moment it is all congecture. I have had performance and 'fast' car before and enjoyed these for many different reasons.
I have always been a fan of bikes ( I have owned over 30 since I was 16) but have come to the conclusion that bikes are no longer my thing, being 44 now, having a young child and just getting a bit more 'sensible'.
Whatever i buy, I want it to be able to be whatever I decide I want it to be, I suppose. I also, especially at the moment, want value for money and will not spend money I don't have to, or want to!
There is an ex-racing Tiger for sale, this has everything; 200hp Zetec, Quaife, AVO coilovers, etc, but it is (obviously) a lot of money. I don't know if I want something that's all done for me, so all I have to do is drive it on the three nice days of the year!
monck - 4/2/12 at 03:59 PMSomeone told me if 200 hp aint enough for you in a 7 and you really want to terrify yourself further why not buy a super-bike as it would be cheaper
im sure a decent 1000cc bike would do 170mph+ if you had the ball's or were dumb enough
Just a thought
[Edited on 4/2/12 by monck]
StrikerChris - 4/2/12 at 04:16 PMI'm with the power limit theory.mine is approx 200bhp and awesome fun on a dry road.chuffing terrifying on anything damp.I could easily get another hundred ponies,and have the bits lying about,but never have cause not being Nigel Mansel it'd probably make me slower trying to avoid solid objects!
pond - 4/2/12 at 04:19 PMI can see the points above and agree mostly.
Surely, though, it's the WAY an engine provides its power that is as important, if not more so, than just bhp.
For instance, I can imagine a BEC is 'all hell' or nothing, a tuned 4 pot is similar only less so, but a big block (V8), even slightly tuned, will be inherently more torquey, thus being more driveable and tractable at any given moment, making it more 'all things to all men'?!
I am even thinking about making a road going show car, mainly cos I'm a show off and like attention!!
scudderfish - 4/2/12 at 04:22 PMV8 with not much of an exhaust. Sounds fantastic even when you're not ragging it
pond - 4/2/12 at 04:29 PMquote:
Originally posted by scudderfish
V8 with not much of an exhaust. Sounds fantastic even when you're not ragging it
Now that IS appealing.
tul214 - 4/2/12 at 04:30 PMHave you seen 1999 Dax Rush Kit Car 4x4 chassis, suspension, Brakes,Diff & huge load of extras | eBay
?
It obviously has the ability to take the power. Not sure on the 4x4 bit though.
StrikerChris - 4/2/12 at 04:50 PMWith 200hp i'm unable to change gear as quick as the engine would like in 1st and 2nd and by 3rd I have a second to look at the Speedo and its in 3 figures.for a car used on the road surely that's enough,anymore you'll have to think about feathering the throttle cause its lighting up the tyres in those few seconds.I can't see that being fun!
mark chandler - 4/2/12 at 05:26 PMMy Locost has 200bhp, very light with a bike engine and spins up slicks.
My problem is getting it to stick to the track, driver ability, grip and handling in that order is the problem, not power.
Regards Mark
britishtrident - 4/2/12 at 05:53 PMquote:
Originally posted by pond
Hello,
I am seriously looking at buying a ready-built car, with the view to making it a hobby, therefore wanting to develop a fire-breathing monster, funds allowing!
My question is:
Out of the box, which kit manufacturer has the best chassis to cope with high power levels? I am looking at tigers and Robin Hoods at the moment, but will consider anything except Westys or Caterhams as they are too expensive second- hand!!
Another question:
Has anyone exploited the 2.5l turbo Duratec yet, as they must be getting available used by now? will they physically fit into a typical '7' type engine bay??
I am considering a RH with a Rover T series turbo engine, but am put off by research saying these engines need big money to make them powerful!
Any comments gratefully received, as knowledge is power!!!
Ta
Andy
You should get out more have been watching too much Top Gear 100 bhp in a a very light car is more than enough to frighten yourself sh@*less or have a lot of fun. Also remember weight a Robin Hood is like a truck compared to a Caterham Superlight with a Rover K.
What these cars should be about is: good ultra precise handling, lightweight with power only third on the priority list.
A badly built car badly setup Seven style car will be both frightening and unpleasant to drive.
My advice is look for an MK with a Silver Top Zetec.
rf900rush - 4/2/12 at 06:00 PMFound this on ebay 1999 Dax Rush Kit Car 4x4 chassis, suspension, Brakes,Diff & huge load of extras | eBay
No Idea who's it is.
Antnicuk - 4/2/12 at 06:32 PMPond, you are not that far from me, if you want to come out for a spin in mine to see what 400 bhp feels like, you are welcome. It can be driven on the road and the power delivery is very smooth and linear. A V8 will be harder to drive fast as it has a big dollop of torque which will break traction very early in the revs. Thats not what you want in a light car, which is BEC's are so quick and you dont see many quick V8 kit cars around a track. Mine is for sale BTW
[Edited on 4-2-12 by Antnicuk]
pond - 4/2/12 at 07:46 PMquote:
Originally posted by rf900rush
Found this on ebay 1999 Dax Rush Kit Car 4x4 chassis, suspension, Brakes,Diff & huge load of extras | eBay
No Idea who's it is.
Nor me, but he (she) can't spell. Also why sell most of a car and then say the rest is available separately? Marketing ploy? I wouldn't go near it for those reasons. And the fact I want a built car!
[Edited on 4/2/12 by pond]
pond - 4/2/12 at 07:51 PMAnyway, we digress! Back to the original question:
Do all manufacturers use space-frame chassis?
Are any stronger/ built better than others?
cheers
Andy
rf900rush - 4/2/12 at 10:48 PMMost I believe are space frames.
My only experince is on my own.
Dax offered 3 basic types at the time.
CEC chassis.
BEC square tube, this was lighter tube than the CEC
And the Camber comp. round tube.
Bad spelling is not alwas a bad thing.
Spelling mistakes on ebay means less buyer's looking.
I managed to get a set of GSXR600 injection bodies (Bodys) off ebay for less than £30, and they were in good condtion.
Although I do not like buying items with additional charges for the extras.
[Edited on 4/2/12 by rf900rush]
DIY Si - 5/2/12 at 08:52 AMThe only now space frame 7 I know of is the Robin Hood/GBS car.
Otherwise, as has been said, the Procomp and MNR frames are meant to be and certainly look to be the best out there. Many others are missing the extra triangulation that they both have, which is what makes the difference as a 7 frame is mostly a 7 frame otherwise. Having said that, adding that triangulation to a bare chassis isn't hard to do if you can weld.
Sam_68 - 5/2/12 at 10:24 AMquote:
Originally posted by DIY SiThe only non space frame 7 I know of is the Robin Hood/GBS car.
There's also the Quantum Xtreme; there have been others, but none that you'll commonly encounter in the UK.
And the current Robin Hood/GBS is also a spaceframe.
adithorp - 5/2/12 at 11:32 AMAs has been said actual power isn't everything in a light car. In a 500kg car 100bhp will be fun, 140 will be quick, 180 will be seriously quick and 250 balistic. Increase the weight to 600kg and 140 becomes fun, etc. The light weight also adds to the handling. Of course the easiest way of keeping the weight down is to go BEC.
Back to the original question...
Try looking at as many cars as you can and getting (blagging) rides in a few. If you're not in too much of a hurry then Stoneleigh show (May6/7) is your best bet. Track days might be another opertunity or Detling show at Easter (?).
Raw Strikers have had high output engines put in then. Omex had/have one with a circa 400bhp supercharged zetec in it and Raw have a Pheonix (same chassis as Striker) with 350bhp 'charged zetec and JeffW on here is converting his Pheonix to 350bhpish 'charged zetec. Antnicuk also has big power in his Stylus (as seen earlier in this thread). Striker, Pheonix, Fury, Stylus, are all similar design chassis by Jeremy Phillips)
If it's as much about the challenge of upgrading, you could do a lot worse than starting with a Striker (or Pheonix,Fury,Stylus) and have some fun with whatever engine it comes with then upgrade.
...but avoid the Robin Hoods...
scudderfish - 5/2/12 at 11:41 AMA think _really_ hard about doing something like this :- http://www.carlimits.com/ You'll enjoy the car more and hopefully be less likely to kill someone.
DIY Si - 5/2/12 at 12:32 PMquote:
Originally posted by scudderfish
A think _really_ hard about doing something like this :- http://www.carlimits.com/ You'll enjoy the car more and hopefully be less likely to kill someone.
A damn good point. All the power in the world is of no use what so ever if you don't have the required skills to use it! You may already be a good driver, but most folk I know who have never driven a 7 just don't know quite what to expect the first time they drive one. But once they do, they keep coming back for more!
MakeEverything - 5/2/12 at 12:48 PMquote:
Originally posted by pond
I can see the points above and agree mostly.
Surely, though, it's the WAY an engine provides its power that is as important, if not more so, than just bhp.
For instance, I can imagine a BEC is 'all hell' or nothing, a tuned 4 pot is similar only less so, but a big block (V8), even slightly tuned, will be inherently more torquey, thus being more driveable and tractable at any given moment, making it more 'all things to all men'?!
I am even thinking about making a road going show car, mainly cos I'm a show off and like attention!!
Two points for me to add here;
If the car you end up with is too scary or not that nice to drive, the you who nt want to drive it, and will feel under pressure when doing so. This could distract you when you need your confidence and abilities the most.
As you say, BHP isn't the only consideration, it's the delivery. A turbo engine will go all blurry at high speeds very quickly, where as a V8 will have more low down torque to get you to the faster speed quickly and (IMO) more usable on UK roads and fun to drive.
I've driven a tiger with 210hp on a track day, and that was plenty quick enough, handled well, and was overtaking Porsches etc.m it was however, quite lively on the rear end and span on me twice. In a car of that weight, I think more Han 250-300 is a waste.
britishtrident - 5/2/12 at 01:04 PMquote:
Originally posted by DIY Si
quote:
Originally posted by scudderfish
A think _really_ hard about doing something like this :- http://www.carlimits.com/ You'll enjoy the car more and hopefully be less likely to kill someone.
A damn good point. All the power in the world is of no use what so ever if you don't have the required skills to use it! You may already be a good driver, but most folk I know who have never driven a 7 just don't know quite what to expect the first time they drive one. But once they do, they keep coming back for more!
Yes
Even the most basic tintop engine fitted in a typical 7 style car should result in 200bhp/ton.
These days not that many drivers under 40 have even driven a RWD car of any description, starting RWD experience in a light car with upwards of 200bhp/ton is something of a culture shock.
pond - 5/2/12 at 01:56 PMThank you for all your input with this thread.
You are all, of course, right. I will look for a Zetec-engined car, not fussed about the make. If I choose to upgrade it at a later date, then I can can.
The V8 Locost mentioned at the start has now gone, anyway, more's the pity!
I have had a couple of very kind offers of rides by local people to me (thank you), so may take them up on this before committing. I will also go down to Tiger Racing and have a chat with them very shortly, as they are only around the corner.
Cheers
Andy
stevebubs - 5/2/12 at 04:17 PMquote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
quote:
Originally posted by DIY Si
quote:
Originally posted by scudderfish
A think _really_ hard about doing something like this :- http://www.carlimits.com/ You'll enjoy the car more and hopefully be less likely to kill someone.
A damn good point. All the power in the world is of no use what so ever if you don't have the required skills to use it! You may already be a good driver, but most folk I know who have never driven a 7 just don't know quite what to expect the first time they drive one. But once they do, they keep coming back for more!
Yes
Even the most basic tintop engine fitted in a typical 7 style car should result in 200bhp/ton.
These days not that many drivers under 40 have even driven a RWD car of any description, starting RWD experience in a light car with upwards of 200bhp/ton is something of a culture shock.
Ahem...35 and had RWD cars since I was 22...the only deviation from that was 18 months of Mondeo company car (now F10 BMW and no issues in the snow so far...)
SCAR - 5/2/12 at 04:46 PMOver the last 13 years I've had 7 westfields with a variety of engines, a v6 cobra, an NG TC and now have V8 Luego which I've yet to drive. Without doubt I had the most fun in a well sorted 4 speed 1660 crossflow powered Westy with live axle that had been set up for sprinting.
The car was superb fun. You could cane it on the road without reaching stupid speeds and driving it fast gave a huge sense of achievement.
Power wise it was probably the least powerful of the lot.
hughpinder - 7/2/12 at 09:26 AMAs I think has been mentioned, the procomp, mnr and dax chassis seem best made/designed. My friend who works in the aerospace industry bough a dax as he said it was the only one he saw that he liked the welding on (he does inspect welds for a living though). Also, I'm not sure which other ones he'd looked at. If you want an idea of what changes make the chassis stronger, have a search on this forum for 'australian' modifications - that'll tell you the sort of small things to look for on a chassis that make it much stronger.
Regards
Hugh
nickm - 12/2/12 at 06:31 PMHi
There arent many turbo/supercharged cars out there because the cars are to light, i may be wrong but Caterham dont do one but i believe Westfield do but the write ups i have seen are nothing special so if 2 big companies cant make it work well ?
These cars are all about handling they are to uncomfortable for massive speed !!!!
They have no electronic stability programme or fancy gadgets to keep you on the road so a) you can leave the road easily, b) if you know what you are doing they can go faster because you are in total control the car cannot override you.
Lower power is more fun as you have to drive it to get the most out of it.
Tiger must be quite near at Wisbech, why dont you go for a ride with them i had a Tiger but am now building a Sylva for the handling.
The most fun i had was driving at 60 on straight roads because it was so boring and uncomfortable watching everyone overtaking me knowing that when the straight finished we would be on a twisty b road and i would overtake them all back without breaking the speed limit because of its cornering ability.
Why dont you consider building ?
Nick M
daniel mason - 12/2/12 at 06:45 PMthink the csr xc330 is supercharged duratec mate
edited for typo
[Edited on 12/2/12 by daniel mason]
kb58 - 12/2/12 at 06:53 PMquote:
Originally posted by snapper
...If the wheels spin in all gears most of the time and light upon the corners it's not fun anymore
IMHO
Absolute power may corrupt absolutely, but that's what the throttle's for!
franky - 12/2/12 at 06:58 PMYou can have a 330bhp car that doesn't spin its wheels in any gear and will do 0-100's in 7seconds all day long, its all about the way car is set up and how the engine makes its power. This is where I think turbo'd engines loose out. With a nice straight power curve you can't have enough power.
kb58 - 13/2/12 at 01:15 AMI don't agree on the turbo, since it can be tuned to apply power only at the high-end where presumably the traction is better. OTOH, a supercharged engine increases low-end torque which is useless in a Locost since it already has enough power to spin the tires down there.
That aside, a turbo can also be tuned to give a very wide torque curve. Here's the dyno graph of my turbo Honda K24 in my mid-engine Midlana, 270+ ft-lbs from 3000 - 8000 rpm.
[Edited on 2/13/12 by kb58]
[Edited on 2/13/12 by kb58]
RK - 13/2/12 at 08:48 PMI have an MK with 180 dyno'd 180 HP. I have done quite a bit of autoslalom in it. It is seriously scary fast, and I've had several passengers turn white. It would be quite stupid to have a lot more than that unless you want to drag race.
Hellfire - 13/2/12 at 09:54 PMquote:
Originally posted by pond
......I have always been a fan of bikes ( I have owned over 30 since I was 16) but have come to the conclusion that bikes are no longer my thing, being 44 now, having a young child and just getting a bit more 'sensible'.
It sounds to me like you need to get a passenger ride in a BEC
If you've never been in a BEC, give one a try. It could be what you're looking for............
Phil
Dopdog - 13/2/12 at 10:05 PMdo we all not like loads of power??
RK - 14/2/12 at 12:41 AMNice try Phil. You can fool some of the people some of the time...