8 years ago I was pretty drunk and on ebay....which resulted in a winning bid for a Lexus LS400. It has served me well, even though it was never a car
I would have dreamt of buying in a sober state of mind. Now it has served out its purpose, but I have grown to love that beautiful lump under the
bonnet, and now playing around with the idea of using it in a midi build.
I currently have an Elise S1 111s which I love to bits, and will never(maybe) get rid of. Since I love the way it drives, I want my next project to
behave similarly.
Now to the big question.
I think I can create a chassis that has the required stiffness, and within 850 kg total weight. But I would not know where to start with suspension
geometry.
Would it in theory be possible to multiply the Elise dimensions by say 10% in all directions, and still have a similar result? i.e. use the elises
suspension pickup points, wishbone lenghts etc. multiplied by 1.1. By this i don't mean just lengthening and widening the chassis by 10%, but
also making wishbones 10% bigger etc.
10% would give me a 230mm longer wheelbase to accommodate the V8 transaxle.
In theory it should work, however in practise, it means everything needs to be multiplied by say the 10% in X, Y and Z. This doesnt just mean pickup
points but also wheels, uprights etc.. which can be tricky if you intend to just use say Elise parts.
However you could argue that even with a few compromises to make it doable, you could still end up with something pretty decent.
[Edited on 29/9/13 by eddie99]
I would not use any Elise parts, and would probably go up one wheel size from the Elises 15/16 setup anyway. Tires would have to be wider as well, to cope with the planned 265bhp and torque from a 4 liter V8. Currently running 225 at the back, which would probably mean going up to 255/17.
i dont think it would drive badly in the front of a 7 type car! its not an overly heavy lump for a v8. any you could possibly use a few more of the
parts from the lexus!
others have put heavier motors than that in it them. and you could use smalller wheels which should make it ride even better
I have thought about the idea of using it in a Sevenesque chassis, which is probably an easier option, but I have already built one seven. I am also of the opinion that a Seven is best suited for a light straight four N/A engine. Not a big fan of the dragster like creations out there. This time I would like to build a car with a full bodyshell, which is why I also had a look at the AGM, which is basically a 7 in disguise. But I have made up my mind, that i want it to be mid-engined. Not sure what type of bodyshell I want to go for, Lola T70 style, or more towards a modern LMP. All I know is that it will be open, and simple. No big windscreen or complicated doors.
You can fit the Lexus V8 in a Spire. http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=163580
Looking at the comments in before mentioned thread about the spire, it is pretty much why I am considering a scratch build. Using a chassis designed for BEC or small inline fours, and trying to change it, stretch it, widen it, and strengthen it, seems like just as much work. There was someone on the thread building a Haynes with the Lexus lump, but dont know how he is getting on. But the 7 is scary above 140mph, and with the Lexus engine you would reach speeds well above that at the end of Long straits. Although thinking about it, the heavier Lexus engine might help push down on the nose at higher speeds?
quote:
Originally posted by beppesignori
But the 7 is scary above 140mph, and with the Lexus engine you would reach speeds well above that at the end of Long straits
(force from the wind is related to the square of its speed) quote:
Originally posted by beppesignori
Although thinking about it, the heavier Lexus engine might help push down on the nose at higher speeds?
get hold of Allan Staniforths "race and rally book", build a string computer, it will tell you exactly what difference it will make
Build this
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=183728
Nice piece of kit...would be perfect, was it not for the price. Unfortunately they havent solved the problem that is always discussed when talking
Group-C LMP replicas, the perspex windscreen. But for track only...awesome.
Would still like some more input on implications of scaling up a chassis...
There have been v8s or v10s been put into Elises before.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=1223266
No way I am cutting up my Elise. Love it too much. Just need a home for my Lexus V8....
from a practical point of view which 'off the shelf' transaxles fit the lexus V8 or can be made to fit with minimal work ?
(obviously they need to be able to handle the torque/power as well)
and here's a different lotus option for you:
http://www.motorgeek.com/viewtopic.php?t=9648
[Edited on 1/10/2013 by mcerd1]
What you are proposing is not a million miles from the new V6 Exige. This has an extended wheelbase but as far as I know retains the same
suspension/track dimensions as the 4 cylinder cars and it obviously works pretty well. Might be worth reading up on the various press reports to find
out more.
In my less sober moments I have occasionally thought about using a sound S1 chassis from a car with tatty bodywork as the basis for something like
this, using a new rear subframe to suit. Would save a lot of work on such a project. Good luck!
Hi beppesignori
I'm am very interested in your idea, who would you build the 'Elise' style chassis? Tube or composite tub?
I had thought for my next car i would do something similar, id make a carbon tub and run a longitudinal engine in the rear with Elise style body
work.....
What is your S1 like, i went to view two on Saturday, S1 standard cars, both were purple with Cream leather, both high milers. One was
'average' - really nice straight original car let down by a few annoying points and lack of service evidence, would have been very tempted
if it had the paper work.... second one was a dog...
Interested to know more about your car, PM me if you like.
Rob
Thanks for the input. Have studied Hillys Esprit intensely over the years. Even contemplating doing the same, just with the Lexus engine. Looking to
use an Audi Transaxle, The 01X i believe has been used successfully.(hurts me to use any Audi part on my car). Interesting fact about the Exige. It
probably means that scaling up the S1 chassis is possible. Looking to fabricate uprights as well, so can even adjust the them to fit the 10%. Now just
have to clear the calendar for the next 3 years(yes, I am slow. The MK took me 4 years to finsih :-) )
http://youtu.be/Ba8sT2BQ4uc
[Edited on 1/10/13 by beppesignori]
Rob,
Regarding the Elise. They drink out of a magic well in Hethel. Have just completed my first trackday after rebuilding my S1. Complete makover with GAZ
suspension, new bushings, whishbone refurb, 111S engine plus plus. It just amazing how it drives. The feedback it gives you, the adjustability and the
grip levels are stunning.(setup advice from ES Motorsport)
I dont expect to get anywhere near with my build, but if some of that magic could rub off on the project by using some of the geometry from the Elise,
I would be happy.
Going low tech on this one. Tubes for the chassis. I know Colin would kill me for saying this, but as long as I get the chassis stiff enough, and
strong enough, I dont mind 50kgs extra.
all seems a good idea, but will it realistically get finished? so many variables. 'building' a seven, can be as simplistic as assembly or
more involved, whereas a scratch build is loads of fabrication and all the maths etc as well and you still have to build the thing (I reckon similar
time needed as building 2-3 kits in reality)
why not buy a binned elise, ultilise the suspension and either create a tubular spaceframe that bolts to Lotuses tub to fit the lexus motor and audi
transaxle? at least most of it will work, and not as if 'just' creating a tubular back end is a months work. That way you get the elecrics,
wipers, pedal box, screen, all the odds and sods that aren't interesting but could drag the project down?
if you've watched the Elise story DVD, it was aimed at 750kg with a K series and it ended up 838kg (from memory), so the likelihood of scaling up
the dims by 10% and you getting it under 1000kg is marginal imho. Bigger wheels and tyres will instantly add 20-40kg for instance
great idea for a proj and not knocking you at all, just think you need to ensure that all the worst case scenarios are taken into account.
oh, and when its finished, can I have a go 
Exactly my sentiments CNHSS1, and what I have in my day dreams. I think however the Elise ended up at a claimed 733 kg ( was that your typo ? ). My S2 135R with full tank, roof etc ready to go was 788 kg on calibrated scales, so a bare bones S1 at 733 kg is not impossible to believe. I have in mind a Mazda KL V6 and Renault UN1 transaxle which should be doable on an S1 base at about 800kg. Wishful thinking?
Ya dead right, was digging the weights from my poor memory lol
My point stands though, increasing the dims by 10% and going bigger wheels with fabricated parts will see it knocking on the door of 1000kg. The
suggested design is ball patk TVR, ally motor, fabricated chassis, grp body, 18-19" wheels and they tend to be just over 1000kg.
Even at that it would be great im sure, but the elises trump card is the light weight to give the sublime balance along witb some of the best chassis
techies in the world!
carfolio.com (which is normally pretty good for weights and measures) has
K series ~714-756kg
Toyota ~ 852-876kg (!!)
Depending on the exact model.
s1 was supposed to come in at 675kg, don't think they quite made it but it was close.
I can tell you with only 118bhp on tap in the standard car they drive very well and feel quick. Looking forward to getting the locost on the road!
Dry weight of my Elise is 699 according to my Certificate of Conformity. No doubt its a brilliant car.
However, this thread was about building a new chassis. No doubt the subframe idea is very doable. I even have access to a Speedster chassis, if I
wanted to go that route.
But i suffer from builderitis, and a severe case of starting new projecteritis. I built a seven, just finishing building my house(from scratch),
rebuild my Elise. I am going all in next time. Would like to have a go at a frame, and even designing a bodyshell.
Aim is to get the thing to weigh around 900 kg. But 1000 kg is no disaster. The 1UZFE will give an easy 300bhp with little modification and standard
torque is 380nm i believe. So it will be fast no matter what.
I also have no timeframe. Next year I will be racing the Elise in local series, and that should keep me going for a couple of years. But planning the
project is a big part of it, so just gathering information.
Hard part will be taking the Lexus apart...it has served me well.
http://www.super7thheaven.co.uk/blog/rover-v8-lexus-1uzfe-dimensions-a97.html
I knew people would start looking at this engine. LS400 are easily found for around 1000£. They are expensive to insure, quite thirsty, some would say
ugly and dated, and nobody wants them. But the V8 could easily get a second life in the kitcar industry. Nice and sorted project in the link, but
going for 19" wheels seems more bling than sense...
Now we just need some reasonably priced conversion kits, for transaxles and normal tranmissions.
Hello Claes Yes im still in progress it's been on and off progress(tough going)! Should see my car soon mapped and running ready for final
touches and GRP body panels. Talking about set up: Im using Turbo Supra 5 speed manual gearbox(strong old box but you will need a adaptor plate with
bellhousing from LS400 automatic box...etc)-there are different solutions out there too. Engine managment is LINK XTREME-it should take care of most
things but it will need to be mapped. Oil filter location is another problem that has to be removed to different location and of course no AIR CON and
POWER STEERING for that you have to use different pulley and belt that cancels it all out. Engine sump is standart you wont find dry sumps for theese
engines(ive seen in life half done dry sump conversion kit but due to costs etc it's never been finished)...there might be some in Australia,New
Zealand or so. In my case with 17" wheels and some sump guard plate it will be fine for ground clearance and i dont think it would affect much
acceleration(plus i like wheel arches to be filled) Exhaust system is all custom(all Lexus standart manifolds from Soarer,LS400,Cressida...etc are
crap they are so restricted and due to available engine bay space need to be customised)....i went for polished stainless steel Ac Cobra
"style" side pipes with proper manifolds no cats but with sensors left in headers for better fuel economy etc. Air intake will be pod filter
engine mounts are standart Lexus LS400(new) short turn steering rack around that lump..... Using a Ford Sierra 4x4 rear diff should be strong enough
for time being(hope so). Basiclly all engine set up is standart with a bit of luck it might push around 280 engine hp on dyno in best scenario depends
how much life was left in it and will show if i done everything right! I wanted to mention that CAMS in this engine are not made for
performance....very flat torque curve but it all can be toleretad for a start. With decent engine breathing it will still rev happy past 5000 rpm(in
standart car power drops) without loosing much power till 6500 rpm in safe way without any mods+ it will be relatively light car. P.S. All performance
cams,lifters,even ITB kits are available for this engine on internet bet they have to be imported from STATES or Australia.....for thoose who think is
not enough I hope i've gave you some idea-welcome to comment and ask
I binned the stock management and went with a mega squirt running wasted spark with two ford coil packs . Crank trigger is the one off the later Vvt
engine and the flywheel you need it the 3sgte with the holes slotted by a couple of mm with supra arp flywheel bolts . I have the cad file for the
adaptor and use a rev 3 mr2 clutch fork and ball to keep the slave external .
As mine is twin turbo I drilled the fuel rail and manifold to take some Saab 360cc injectors
The stock exhaust manifolds are a terrible design but the width of the motor leaves plenty of room to build a tidy header .
Using an adaptor plate leaves the guide tube for the clutch bearing a bit short so I added a 30 mm sleeve to keep the bearing centred .
My worry was paying a lot for an ecu that relies on ancient hardware to run properly as a new or used maf for an ls400 isn't cheap where a ms set
up is map Tps based with cheap generic sensors
Holy s...
Froggy..you must have a deathwhish. Are you planning on 335 slicks?
Are you guys using the Haynes chassis? Any strengthening done to suspension or frame?
I assume the supra gearbox is the one from the old 3 liter. Can those still be found in reasonable nick and for a reasonable price.
Still..I want to go midi...don't tempt me :-)
Twin turbos!!!!!!!!!!! SHIT........crazy man.
I would go for supercharger would be more user friendly...unless you planning to do some serious drag
racing. Yes box is out of older Supra i choosen it cos i could get adaptor plate for it,flywheel,clutch(new) and rest of bits....... Theese boxes are
quite rare now....been used in lots of applications......you could easy pay for one at least 700£.. You can use smaller Toyota Supra NON TURBO box
too......if you can get adaptor plate made or bought....for lighter car it should be ok! My chassis is made from Haynes Roadster book.......bit wider
for comfort and at first i wanted to put ROVER V8 in it...... Other worries was body panels........wanted to fit them and not to go aluminium route
cos lots of theese "shed" built Locosts...etc could be very ugly and i hoping to for normal(not some 750-800kg) end result too!
My chassis is a modified Mk Indy which is a metre wide right up to the bulkhead and I've put the tube back in under the bellhousing to stiffen it
up plus the centre spine will be a lot taller as you sit a lot higher up in a rod
I've also got a mid engined transverse set up car with 500hp which is fine on track but not as much fun as a front engined rear drive car on the
road .
[youtube]http://youtu.be/ysdtAVapKyM[/youtube] or http://youtu.be/Oc5C3hQEuFs I was talking with guy.....he runs standart internals on that engine...low boost and twin turbos......there are another 7 project his mate doing it but he went atmosferic way.........it revs over 8000rpm.. - some mad thoughts and engineering gone in that Lexus engine..he had it mapped couple weeks ago and now it's ready for body work. I could add some fotos but im not worked it out HOW yet! I was uploading some but something to do with Chris from forum...i just don't know why.. I cant even upload fotos of my car appart from this one in early stages.
Unbelievable how ugly a 7 can be made to look...
I am not looking to build a dragracer which is why the geometry is quite important. If it fits in a standard Haynes chassis, made for a pinto engine
which is heavier than the Lexus engine, it shouldn't be a problem.
Then its just down to aerodynamics if you want a higher top end speed. What full body options are available or modifiable for a Haynes chassis?
[Edited on 2/10/13 by beppesignori]
It should't be a problems if the job been carried out properly...my mate years ago was running in similar chassis Rover V8(actually one of the
first V8 locos in UK)....it didnt twist,break or snap......lots of people can over do strengthening too...you end up with heavy-ugly car still with
it's own limitations and on top of that you have to put some nasty body panels. High speed aerodynamics ar poor as we know but 7 type cars never
meant to be modern day GTR I worked out gear ratios on my set up and in theory it should go up to 172 mph....i don't know in practice yet if it
will be enough power,guts or other aerodynamic aspects involved....that's not my worries at moment. You can easy order body panels online or
seperate bits if you want to.......they doing lots of carbon bits too. As for drag racing...i think most most 7 style cars run out of gears before
they reach 1/4 mile that's why times not that brilliant(traction issues too) Ive seen Duncan Cowper(Haybusa engine F1 hybrid turbos 500+) and
some other mad sevens in drag races...they run around 12 sek which isn't that fast considering standart R500 could be a bit faster! On another
hand there was guy in Sweden he had a Turbo Volvo engine(car has on big boost over 500 bhp)...he run in 9 sek and other guy in UK with Chevy V8 he ran
similar times.......in his Dutton!
I know I can get panels for a seven style kit car, but wondering if there is anything like the AGM just a bit prettier out there, that will fit a Haynes. Not looking for high speed for dragracing but for the end of the straits on tracks like nurburgring GP, where the 7s always loose all they gain in the corners
How about Radical then? .....Or put some Honda K20 series engine supercharged or turbo charged.....or both together in your Elise with some TIME
ATTACK style splitters,spoilers,diffusers.....im sure you will be faster on Nurburgring than old Lotus design!
Not touching the Elise...its brilliant as it is. Looking for something like the Coram LMP. Unfortunately, as far as I have been told, they went bust,
and moulds destroyed.
http://www.carenthusiast.com/pressrelease.html?include=20030215_coramlmp
quote:
Originally posted by beppesignori
Not touching the Elise...its brilliant as it is. Looking for something like the Coram LMP. Unfortunately, as far as I have been told, they went bust, and moulds destroyed.
http://www.carenthusiast.com/pressrelease.html?include=20030215_coramlmp
quote:
Originally posted by beppesignori
Thanks for the input. Have studied Hillys Esprit intensely over the years. Even contemplating doing the same, just with the Lexus engine. Looking to use an Audi Transaxle, The 01X i believe has been used successfully.(hurts me to use any Audi part on my car). Interesting fact about the Exige. It probably means that scaling up the S1 chassis is possible. Looking to fabricate uprights as well, so can even adjust the them to fit the 10%. Now just have to clear the calendar for the next 3 years(yes, I am slow. The MK took me 4 years to finsih :-) )
http://youtu.be/Ba8sT2BQ4uc
[Edited on 1/10/13 by beppesignori]