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Would you consider a Birkin
Birkin UK - 11/8/15 at 03:04 PM

A general question for everyone to give honest Opinions.

I will be selling either a Birkin XS rolling chassis to suit your engine and gearbox spec, or a complete Turnkey car as of the 1st September 2015. It seems a few people have given it a go over the past few years since John Watson, but none have succeeded partly due to the rate of exchange and bad timing.

These cars will be using a Zetec ( 175-250BHP ) or a Duratec ( 185 - 300BHP )

15 inch alloys with 20mm spacers on the rear

Rolling chassis costs will be approx. £15,500 plus VAT
Turnkey Cars will start at £25,000 plus VAT ( on the road )

Will they sell?

Irony - 11/8/15 at 03:45 PM

Quick search reveals the GBS Zero rolling chassis is £8.5K. Thats a lot of difference in cost. After all this is www.locostbuilders.co.uk. For me you have to justify why a Birkin is a lot better than a Zero.

JAG - 11/8/15 at 03:46 PM

You may sell a few - but probably not to the members of this forum at those prices

The kind of people who MAY buy them are more likely to buy the Caterham equivalent as it's not very far off in terms of price and brings a little more re-sale value. At least here in the UK I believe it does.

Birkin UK - 11/8/15 at 03:53 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Irony
Quick search reveals the GBS Zero rolling chassis is £8.5K. Thats a lot of difference in cost. After all this is www.locostbuilders.co.uk. For me you have to justify why a Birkin is a lot better than a Zero.



The difference is that the Birkin rolling chassis are complete, ready to just drop the engine, gearbox and ECU into the car and away you go.

GBS are still to be built and it is a preference on if you self build or not

MikeRJ - 11/8/15 at 03:53 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Irony
Quick search reveals the GBS Zero rolling chassis is £8.5K. Thats a lot of difference in cost. After all this is www.locostbuilders.co.uk. For me you have to justify why a Birkin is a lot better than a Zero.


For the same reason that Caterhams cost a lot more than the Zero. Birkin bought the rights to manufacture the 7 from Lotus, just as Caterham did.

Birkin UK - 11/8/15 at 03:59 PM

quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
quote:
Originally posted by Irony
Quick search reveals the GBS Zero rolling chassis is £8.5K. Thats a lot of difference in cost. After all this is www.locostbuilders.co.uk. For me you have to justify why a Birkin is a lot better than a Zero.


For the same reason that Caterhams cost a lot more than the Zero. Birkin bought the rights to manufacture the 7 from Lotus, just as Caterham did.


Zero full car kit is near enough 20K. You then have the cost of building the car, the IVA and tax along with the DVLA fees which makes the Birkin very competitive compared to the Zero and all the kit included as standard

daniel mason - 11/8/15 at 04:03 PM

The Birkin chassis is a level or 2 above a zero! They are stunning cars. Comparable to caterhams! Expensive yes, but very nice

Birkin UK - 11/8/15 at 04:18 PM

quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
The Birkin chassis is a level or 2 above a zero! They are stunning cars. Comparable to caterhams! Expensive yes, but very nice


thanks for the kind words, I know I will never be able to compete with regards to Locusts costs but I hope to take a few customers away from westy and Caterham.

Having the car at the Total kit car live show at brands will give me as good indication on whether or not this is a good business opportunity

ReMan - 11/8/15 at 04:20 PM

quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
The Birkin chassis is a level or 2 above a zero! They are stunning cars. Comparable to caterhams! Expensive yes, but very nice


Thats what it looks like to me.
I've never wanted a Caterahm, for a number of reasonns, but if he Birkin is also a licenced copy arent they also the same as a Catreham.
And so how do they compare in spec, price and re-sale?
I sadly suspect Caterham buyrs will be reluctant not to buy a Cateream

Birkin UK - 11/8/15 at 04:32 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ReMan
quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
The Birkin chassis is a level or 2 above a zero! They are stunning cars. Comparable to caterhams! Expensive yes, but very nice


Thats what it looks like to me.
I've never wanted a Caterahm, for a number of reasonns, but if he Birkin is also a licenced copy arent they also the same as a Catreham.
And so how do they compare in spec, price and re-sale?
I sadly suspect Caterham buyrs will be reluctant not to buy a Cateream


The same spec Caterham ( 420 ) is approx. 32k plus VAT

they do not have fully independent adjustable rear suspension as well as still using Metro steering column.

Birkin come with a better suspension, front hub assembly and Subaru rear diff

They are not exactly the same to look at as the Birkin are slightly lower, different cockpit layout and overall size as Caterham decided the chassis needed improving and put a bit more flex in it from what I have been told.

Re sale value will be tricky as I am only aware of 1 car being sold back in 2010...

gaz_gaz - 11/8/15 at 04:45 PM

I remember the S3 for sale back in 2010. sold for a little under £8000 in the end I believe?

Birkin looks stunning. Sadly I think it'll prove to expensive for most and those with the money will buy Caterhams without even considering what other options are available.

edited to add, There is currently an S3 for sale on completekitcar.co.uk although there is no mention of advert age


[Edited on 11/8/15 by gaz_gaz]

maccmike - 11/8/15 at 08:39 PM

Westfield and Caterham have the product history, value retention and reputation. I think most people would prefer to spend their hard earnt dosh with those companies.

I think you either go cheap to build the mainstream reputation or go high market.

Your USP is good though and I think thats your only strength at the moment.

Barkalarr - 12/8/15 at 05:43 AM

Having had several and currently got a Caterham, there is much more to having the car than just driving the car.
The lotus 7 club is at all the shows where you can get tea and coffee and just talk anything petrol with like minded people, they organise handling days, sprints, track days, runs out both locally and internationally. There are discounts with insurance, etc etc. it's unfortunate that to take full advantage of this club, you must own a Caterham.
I believe the Westfield club is very similar.

If you're offering a birkin for similar price I hope you have the back-room club to compete with the Westfield and Caterham club or else people will probably not move over - regardless of the awesome spec and price of what you're offering.

The Caterham owner demographic in general has reasonably deep pockets so the marginal 5 or 6k doesn't really come into the buying equation.

daniel mason - 12/8/15 at 06:00 AM

You've basically just described the locostbuilder gang there^^
They organise track days,European and local run outs, visit all the shows,and borking would be more than welcome!

Barkalarr - 12/8/15 at 06:28 AM

quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
You've basically just described the locostbuilder gang there^^
They organise track days,European and local run outs, visit all the shows,and borking would be more than welcome!


I guess I have kinda described this community however the difference is that there is a dedicated rep in each county who is responsible for organising local events.
There's also a guy who is responsible for organising track days.

Unfortunately with this community, (unless it's passed me by) there is no single point of contact in each area to organise drives out or track days.
What you have here is someone who sticks their head above the parapet as just tells everyone they are going to do a track day at x circuit, come along if you're interested. And this is the same as the drives out.
To my knowledge, in my local area, there isn't a regular LCB monthly meet up like there is with the L7 club.

It's a shame because you're right - with a bit of ownership and organisation, this community could go to the next level and not just be a good club, but a really great club.
It does however require a lot of time dedicated by those involved.

ianhurley20 - 12/8/15 at 08:05 AM

http://www.vxronline.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?97735-Birkin-S3-Kitcar-Build.....

Build blog of one!

Birkin UK - 12/8/15 at 08:28 AM

quote:
Originally posted by gaz_gaz
I remember the S3 for sale back in 2010. sold for a little under £8000 in the end I believe?

Birkin looks stunning. Sadly I think it'll prove to expensive for most and those with the money will buy Caterhams without even considering what other options are available.

edited to add, There is currently an S3 for sale on completekitcar.co.uk although there is no mention of advert age


[Edited on 11/8/15 by gaz_gaz]


I have seen that one and I can see it is dated 2010 but no age of car for 8.5k

Hopefully see a few of you at Brands Hatch. Birkin was re launched in September 2014 after a couple of years of nothing in SA and USA.

Hopefully with the factory backing who have started going into Enduro races and the stig driving one at the Jo Burg Live show, we will get some much needed PR

TKC Mag are being very helpful and Steve has been a fantastic contact for me so far

richardm6994 - 12/8/15 at 12:19 PM

just food for thought here.....I've never ran a company so I can only say what I've seen and try to imagine myself in one of your potential customer's shoes......


It maybe worth considering the advertising / publicity approach that Ultima Cars took with their GTR car.............they knew their car was very pricey within the kitcar market place and so they demonstrated what it was capable of and compared that against other more expensive production super-cars.......

The message I took away from their promo was that they've got a great looking car, that annihilates the supercars that most people generally think are untouchable..........If I had £60k spare, I wouldn't look at anything else other than an Ultima if performance was what I was after.

Ultima have obviously had great success as they've built on the GTR's reputation and produced an even more expensive but faster car.............let me just stop there and daydream for a minute or 2......


I realize the Ultima example is a bit of an extreme scenario gievn they are mega money and smashing world records so who wouldn't shout about that......., but it illustrates the point I'm trying to make..........you've got to convince potential customer's to spend their money on a Birkin instead of caterham, westfield etc........get some comparative performance figures, costs, lap times etc.....put it all together showing the Birkin against 'well known' cars of similar and more expensive budgets and then advertise this heavily.....

Irony - 12/8/15 at 01:25 PM

Agree with Richard above. I believe that you have to convince the public to buy a Birkin. Passive advertising in a very competitive market will never work. Look at MEV, GBS and Ultima. Mev ran that scheme where they showed people how easy it was to build a Exocet buy building them at shows every hour at stoneleigh. GBS have pushed the 'complete package' on a budget vein.

Convince people that a Birkin is better than a cater/west/MK. Convince people and they will buy. Don't just say its better, prove it.

scootz - 12/8/15 at 01:36 PM

Very nice kits with genuine Lotus 7 DNA.

Sadly they don't seem to hold their money as well as the Caterham though, so for that reason, I'd probably only buy second hand.

I'd say the Birkin and Cat share a similar relationship as the VX220 does with the early S2 Elise.

Birkin UK - 13/8/15 at 08:46 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Irony
Agree with Richard above. I believe that you have to convince the public to buy a Birkin. Passive advertising in a very competitive market will never work. Look at MEV, GBS and Ultima. Mev ran that scheme where they showed people how easy it was to build a Exocet buy building them at shows every hour at stoneleigh. GBS have pushed the 'complete package' on a budget vein.

Convince people that a Birkin is better than a cater/west/MK. Convince people and they will buy. Don't just say its better, prove it.


thanks for the sound advice, I really do appreciate it. I will get some lap times from tracks that Caterham are posting against Birkin is SA as they have been competing in Enduro races..

The 1st car will be at Brands Hatch in November, so hopefully seeing it and being a passenger round a race track will go some way and I will have comparisons on the marketing material I am drafting up at present

daniel mason - 13/8/15 at 09:01 AM

I saw one at croft a few years back with a 2.3 duratec In it. I couldn't catch him in My little 919 fury.
It really was a very nice car

Birkin UK - 13/8/15 at 09:06 AM

quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
I saw one at croft a few years back with a 2.3 duratec In it. I couldn't catch him in My little 919 fury.
It really was a very nice car


Hi,

the 2.3L Duratec is a 250BHP monster and the chassis can take up to 350bhp if you dare try it :-)

reading all the very honest and kind comments ( which I thank you all for taking the time to post ) I feel I am going to go straight up against the Cat / westy and show the comparisons of each car.

hopefully once people see the car and the lap times, touch it, feel it, it will help shift them.

I am not trying to take over the world, I am looking to sell about 15 a year for the first year and then up to 50 a year after 3 years.