Here is a finished piture of my Valdris
will post some pics later.
just doing a few mods for IVA and then hopefully will have it on the road for newark.

You work far too fast for my liking, didn't anyone tell you you're supposed to drag this out over years and years?

Well done BTW looks magic!

Does look good, was nice to see it and meet you at Stoneleigh. Good luck with your IVA and hope to see it again on the road at Newark

nice work, good to see something that isn't a 7 alike for a change. good luck with the IVA

but......

Does the rear end still look a little unfinished? I think i read in one of the mags, there was still work to do there...



[Edited on 10/5/10 by Dangle_kt]

Hi Stuart - nice to meet you at the show, did you get anyone wanting to slap a deposit in your hand there & then???

The Valdris's reception does seem a little better accepted here than on Pistonheads (just been reading a thread on there re Stoneleigh which you're getting plenty of advertising from - unfortunately not all good!!!)

Al the best with the project, Russ

Looks really good, reminds me of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbfiG-oOUTs

quote:

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Originally posted by tomprescott
Looks really good, reminds me of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbfiG-oOUTs

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Hi Russ nice to meet you too.
We had a hell of alot of interest of which most of them are waiting til it is IVAd.
1 person has been in touch twice since and plans on coming down from scotland soon to have another sit in it with the pedalbox further forward (hes over 6ft and im only 5ft6).
Just had a look on pistonheads, each to there own. big thanks to the people sticking up for the car.
Like we said at the show its a marmite car, if everyone loved it then i would have done something that no other manufacturer in the world could do!!
Hope the show was productive for you.

"Does the rear end still look a little unfinished? I think i read in one of the mags, there was still work to do there..."

Dont know how you saw the rear before but this is how it looks now.....

front view

side view

I dont know why your design is taking such flack.....one only has to look at some of the kitcars out there that are really ugly.
Kamala.....that firefly thing ,magenta, a dutton ect
One thing is they may be ugly a sin but their owners love them for being different..... Very differant.
So before anyone criticizes your work....im bloody sure they couldnt do better.
The thing that always puzzeled me was when a really nice car like steve turners LMP came along the buggers didnt buy it.....
But the same punters would buy a banham thing!????

If someone says you designed an ugly car, ask them to park the car they designed next to yours to confirm it...

quote:

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Originally posted by kb58
If someone says you designed an ugly car, ask them to park the car they designed next to yours to confirm it...

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I second these comments and applaud your efforts. Well done!!!

90% of the "loud mouths" out there don't even get half as far with simple 7's; the other 10% of them need to make others feel smaller because of their tiny "winkies".

My advice is to take in all the criticism and use it to your benefit....you are miles ahead of the pack

I really like it!

playing devils advocate, you dont have to be brad pitt to know that gordon brown ain't a looker though

quote:

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Originally posted by cd.thomson
I really like it!

playing devils advocate, you dont have to be brad pitt to know that gordon brown ain't a looker though

---

Thanks for all the replies. I personally have no problem with people saying they dont like it, there are lots of cars out there i dont like, but it is annoying when people get personal.
I just put it down to jealousy and let them get on with it.
2 customers now waiting for IVA to go through means to me that it isnt that bad.

I think it goes like this;

You build a car for yourself I have nothing but admiration for you especially if it actually gets to be finished which puts you on top of 99% of people who start projects - thumbs up.

However if you build a car which you are going to sell retail then you must stand open for all that comes your way and if your sensitive you will bleed.

I showed a new radical design to a group of people recently and they all said awesome, blah blah except for one guy who said he hated it, POS. Asked him why, changed things a bit and came up with something that everyone agreed was even better.

Hi,

We (me and my son) saw it at Stoneleigh and thought it looked awesome. Each to there own I suppose, but I don't think anyone can deny it grabs your attention.

GOOD LUCK with it.

quote "Asked him why, changed things a bit and came up with something that everyone agreed was even better.
"
been there done that but there will always be someone else that will come along and then you will have to change something else and so on and so on.........

I'm happy with it now and have now got 4 people waiting for after the IVA which i dont think is bad considering its only been to stoneleigh. Just wait and see if i get deposits afterwards.
Thanks for you comments guys.

You have to ask your target market, not random people who are mearly interested in your car.... unfortunatelly most people you speak to are going to be the latter.

I saw your car at stoneleigh and really liked it, I was struck by how much it looked like the KTM but I actually like the KTM... I noted areas were I would do things differently but could see why you had gone most of the routes.... However Im definatelly not in the market, so basically my opinion is meaningless

What is meaningful is that I congratulate you on actually building the car... as many have said its easy to talk the talk but much harder to walk the walk.

What I've found is that building a car and selling a kitcar is two VERY different things...

Human nature being what it is makes market research difficult. For example, if I set up a booth at a kit car show and ask people if they like my prototype car - many will. If I ask, would they buy one - many will. So I take my research results home and see that 42% of the responses said they'd buy one, which is, say, 420 people.

With dollar signs in my head, I quickly do the math and find that's around $250,000, and I get very excited... blinded even.

So I rent a place and start building cars, getting serious about surely becoming a millionaire very soon. Eventually I'm "in production", and take the first article to the same kitcar show the next year. I set up a both right in the same place, along with my production car, which looks even better, and wait.

And wait. There's lots of interest, maybe as much as last time, but something's different. People ask lots of questions, but 42% are not putting down even a deposit. They have many excuses about this and that, all why they can't afford it "this year."

Yes, I book an order - singular. One order out of 1000 people. What happened? Human nature.

If someone asks you if you want a Ferrari, what would you say? If someone asks if you'd like to buy a Ferrari (yes or no?) Odds are, lots of people would say yes. Now, out of those, how many people actually have the bank account to buy said car? How many people have the space for said car? Somewhere around 0.1%.

Human nature guarantees that what people want is not the same thing as what people can and will buy. Worst of all is being in the kitcar market, where, face it, customers are broke. Trying to sell an expensive product to people with no money is like selling ice-cubes to Eskimos, or sand to Arabs.

Best of luck to you, but the kitcar industry is littered with the remains of many a dream, almost always due to having too much raw enthusiasm and not enough hard-nosed business sense. Be sure to be harshly objective and balanced in your research, else you may find yourself in the same situation: lots of money in the business, yet with the list of "absolutely for sure I'd buy one" buyers seemingly having evaporated overnight.

[Edited on 5/23/10 by kb58]

Thanks again for your input guys i know exactly where your coming from. Hopefully i will sell some once the iva is done but until i have deposits in my hand i wont be holding my breath.
Iam doing this aswell as my normal bodyshop work so it is not done as my sole business otherwise i would be stacking shelves by now.
Anyway i will keep you all posted on how its doing.

So what's happened to the Valdris then Stuleah? Website saying no longer available?

Ktm's solicitors have been in touch. Because the car looks like theirs we have been told to stop producing it. Unfortunately we are not millionaires so cant afford to see if we have any chance of carrying on .
At present we are producing a new body that will fit the chassis. It will be radical like the Valdris but will be of my own design.
Will post pics when we get started.
Absolutely gutted at present as had sold seven kits.

Well that bites butt and a bit surprising really in some ways and understandable in others which is no consolation to you I am sure.

Maybe talk to some other manufacturers that have been in the same boat in the past? You might learn that they've no leg to stand on. It seems to me a cloudy area given some Co have been shut down in the past and others have carried on regardless.

quote:

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Originally posted by stuleah
At present we are producing a new body that will fit the chassis. It will be radical like the Valdris but will be of my own design.
Will post pics when we get started.

---

I can't tell one hatch back from another these days. They all look the same to me and are very similar in styling design. Surely all the manufacturers should be suing each other and trying to work out who was first to fit four wheels to a small box with a tailgate!

This story is enough to make sure I will NEVER buy a KTM EVER! And it's not that the XBow is my cup of tea but I might have bought one of their bikes.

It should also encourage you to carry on with your work. If you can build a car that threatens a large manufacturer like KTM then you must be doing something right. Change the styling and then use the publicity KTM have generated for you to sell it. The car that scared KTM!

It's not like you are competing for the same section of the market either is it. People that buy the KTM have more money than sense and or don't know one end of a spanner from the other.

Good luck for the future (just don't copy my 7 design.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Oh wait, some bloke called Chapman already did!)


[Edited on 2/2/11 by Strontium Dog]

"And I just hope the quote "It will be radical " doesn't mean you are going to copy the Radical"

Dam now i dont know what to do. LOL

They cant stop you from building or designing a"similar" looking car. Thats bull sh!t!!!!

There are no copyrights or patents on vehicle body design anywhere in the world. I've dealt with many patents already and never came across patents on a car body design, perhaps an innovative system or arrangement of parts only. If I was you I'd say ____'em and carry on....7 kits, you should definitely carry on buddy, keep up the good work

[Edited on 2/2/11 by Gakes]

Apparently we are breaching their "Intellectual property rights."
Do a search for what it means. Wikipedia gives a good description if you can understand it!

What IP do they have? I would ask them to give you the details of that. Unless they have a trade mark or patent on a specific component or group of components then I believe they are on thin ice. It appears they are relying on you not putting up a struggle. Simply ask for the evidence to substansiate there request. That should not cost you anything.

Good luck and don't fold too soon.

........Neil

even if selling this design of car is perfectly legal and they are just trying to scare you, i would change it anyway.

not that its ugly or a bad design, but because of the reason stated above, you have built a car that scares a big company, you should feel proud and use it to your advantage !

I would suggest that either your car is very good or KTM are very paranoid. I don't know the law but if KTM can legally do this why don't other large car manufacturers threaten 'replica' manufacturers? There are lots of replica companies about and they don't seem to be taken to court.

I think you should be proud of what you have created and seriously look into what KTM can actually do to stop you. Surely the fact that a large manufacturer is bullying a tiny tiny business is newsworthy stuff. Might be a great source of free advertising.

Good luck

"It was quite similar in appearance to, and so much better value than, a KTM Xbow that they made us change it"

Lik the way your thinking. Have you got any copyrights on that last sentence or can i use it on my website. LOL

A few years back I worked on a advertising campaign with Tesco regarding Wrangler Jeans. Tesco bought up a huge stock of the Jeans and then sold them off with a mark up 50p or a £1. Which meant that Tesco's were selling Wrangler jeans at £15-25 cheaper than anywhere else in the UK. Wrangler's law firm were immediately intouch and told Tesco to take them off the shelves. Tesco immediately leaked the story to the press and said stuff like 'We were only trying to give the best value to our customers' and 'At Tesco the customer comes first profit second'. Tesco dragged its feet in getting stock off the shelves and all pairs bar a few were already gone. Wrangler said 'Tesco will never be selling Wrangler again'. When the marketing report came back the whole 'Tesco puts customers over profit' message had been broadcast on nearly all Terrestrial TV Channels including the 6 and 10 o'clock news. 20 national radio stations and 57 local stations.

Wrangler were thoroughly manipulated and it was a brilliant marketing coop by Tesco.

You may be able to turn the situation around to work in your favour - in a advertising perspective.

P.S It may have been Levi not Wrangler, I can't remember.

My own experience is big companies with legal departments try this kind of stuff because they can, often they know they wouldn’t win if it goes to court but they know smaller companies will be intimidated and back off fearing the cost of legal action, there’re just flexing muscle!

If you want to carry on, write back, in a detailed professional manner (no need to pay a solicitor) detailing that you have not infringed their intellectual property, state things like theirs is a carbon Monocoque, your is a traditional space frame, suspension geometry is different, whatever major dimensions are different, drive train, wheel sizes etc basically quote all differences. Include photo’s of any similar vehicles even ones from science-fiction especially anything that pre-dates the KTM. Also make it clear that you’re not “passing off” your creation as theirs or claiming it has any link to them

Finally very firmly but politely finish by stating that because no part of your creation makes any use of their intellectual property and because you’re not intentionally or inadvertently passing off your work as theirs you will be continuing with your project.

9 out of 10 you will hear nothing more, if they continue to push then you have to decide whether the fight is worth it.

[Edited on 5/2/11 by orton1966]

Check to see if the design has been protected - it's an interesting question as to whether the design is protected and whether you've breached it.

quote:

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Originally posted by orton1966
My own experience is big companies with legal departments try this kind of stuff because they can, often they know they wouldn’t win if it goes to court but they know smaller companies will be intimidated and back off fearing the cost of legal action, there’re just flexing muscle!

If you want to carry on, write back, in a detailed professional manner (no need to pay a solicitor) detailing that you have not infringed their intellectual property, state things like theirs is a carbon Monocoque, your is a traditional space frame, suspension geometry is different, whatever major dimensions are different, drive train, wheel sizes etc basically quote all differences. Include photo’s of any similar vehicles even ones from science-fiction especially anything that pre-dates the KTM. Also make it clear that you’re not “passing off” your creation as theirs or claiming it has any link to them

Finally very firmly but politely finish by stating that because no part of your creation makes any use of their intellectual property and because you’re not intentionally or inadvertently passing off your work as theirs you will be continuing with your project.

9 out of 10 you will hear nothing more, if they continue to push then you have to decide whether the fight is worth it.

[Edited on 5/2/11 by orton1966]

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In my opinion a change in the design of the bodywork (he's already got the chassis, tub etc so a lot of the work is already done) has got to be a good thing. Not because of the copyright issues, but because of the appearance issues, the only way to go from the xbow is up.

Here's a quick suggestion: draw up some designs of your own and begin testing the market with them, whilst calling KTM's bluff on the intellectual property problem in the manner detailed earlier. If the new design goes down better, and the cost of tooling is satisfactory, you can go down that route whether KTM have any follow up or not. You could still use the "the car that scared KTM" press angle, too. If KTM don't have a legal leg to stand on, you're free to take whichever route you like.

KTM have this image as the easy-going, free-riding, adrenaline-hungry 'little' company from Austria. But does anyone else remember their involvement in Long Way Round? Not exactly game, where they?

Oh dear, I promised myself when I joined up I wouldn't do any "well, I'd do this..." posts. Sorry...

Thanks again for the opinions, we have now built a new chassis and bought the materials to mould a new body. The comments above have seriously got us thinking about doing a letter.
We have been looking at doing a more radical Audi R8 style front but keeping it within the style it is. WITHOUT looking like a Xbow. I will post some pics as soon as i can.

Sounds good!

Like Orton said the first contact is to scare you. Most people will read the letter they sent you, think something along the lines of "Oh noes a big company is going to send their team of solicitors to drag me away and bend me over" and promptly bow down. Ask them politely where the breaches are and then you'll know what to change

I can see where they're coming from with the similarity though, might I suggest reshaping the cycle wings into the body so they look more like part of the shell? It might well be a bit more aerodynamic too.

Still, I like it

caterham successfully sued Westfield thus the pre post litigation adheres sometimes seen, I believe they also litigated Robin Hood for there S3 Monocoque, what the specific details were I don't know, however both manufacturers modified there design and to this day still manufacture 7 alike cars.
I therefor think that you would have to do little to get round the current threat of litigation.
I would hope the collective Locistbuilder brains could now get together especially those with legal training and thrash out a solution.
I do very much hope that you can carry on manufacturing your unique kit car.