Gazeddy
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| posted on 21/2/09 at 01:59 PM |
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chassis
just about to start putting floors in my kit but ive noticed that when me and my dad were building the back end of it he had to modify the design to
take the rear axle. the axle is a mk2 escort one and the mod was to the rear of the passenger side inner rail its about 3 inches shorter and links to
the back rail via a diagonal
thats what the back of my chassis looks like. pic was taken with chassis upside down.
[Edited on 21/2/09 by Gazeddy]
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Humbug
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| posted on 21/2/09 at 02:21 PM |
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so... what's your point/question? This is normal for an Escy-axled car, so just cut your floor to fit!
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Gazeddy
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| posted on 21/2/09 at 03:28 PM |
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so its ok for the 750 mc locost race class
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Rob Palin
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| posted on 22/2/09 at 10:37 AM |
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Hi Gazeddy & welcome to Locost racing!
I'm pretty sure that sort of chassis mod is necessary and is allowed for in the rules, though Matt from Procomp is a much better judge of
exactly what forms it can take.
Looking at the chassis diagram in the regs you can see that they're expecting to see a diagonal there. Check out figure 6, here:
http://www.750mc.co.uk/images/uploaded/2009%20Regs%20-%20Locost.pdf
So do you reckon you'll get out in the car this season or leave it until next?
Rob
#47
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Gazeddy
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| posted on 22/2/09 at 01:45 PM |
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sadly i wont be racing this your or maybe even next. just sorting the floor panneling out. will be heading down to anglesey though to meet some of you
guys and have a chat. the plan is to be as locost as possible
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procomp
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| posted on 23/2/09 at 08:24 AM |
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Hi
As far as the Locost championship goes that area off the chassis is slightly different on many of the chassis from different manufacturers. Due to
there interpretation of the book drawings and actualy having some clearance in the area where the diff is close. So for 750mc locost championship it
will be fine.
Although if i read correctly you are not racing it or not with the Locost championship anyhow so it wouldent matter if that is the case.
Cheers Matt
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blackie
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| posted on 23/2/09 at 02:19 PM |
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Gazeddy, when I built my chassis (back before I had grey hair ) I trial fitted my rear axle & dampers to find that the nose of the diff fouled
the horizontal chassis rail in the centre of the rear bulkhead. This occured when the dampers were fully closed / compressed & so I had to move
the rail.
If you haven't done this already, I'd recommend checking it as I thought my tunnel was per the book & was not too chuffed at having to
chop the tube out again
ahhh happy memories!!
ATB
DB
*
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Gazeddy
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| posted on 23/2/09 at 07:34 PM |
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i am going to be racing in locost championships. but not for a couple of years having a baby and a shiny new car are big drains atm. so just building
with the parts ive already got for it. and is my interpretation of the regs correct in that i can use the elecrtonic dizzy off a valencia engine
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simes43
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| posted on 24/2/09 at 11:56 AM |
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There are lots of things that you can use and a number of things you should.
With the regs being rather stable, I would look to spend your money once on the right kit.
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Gazeddy
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| posted on 25/2/09 at 07:00 PM |
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does a roll cage need to be fia approved or could i build one myself
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Rob Palin
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| posted on 26/2/09 at 06:34 AM |
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Now there's a can of worms! Over to you Matt...
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procomp
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| posted on 26/2/09 at 09:21 AM |
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Hi
Oh Cheers Rob .
Well here's the very blunt basics of roll cages.
If constructing your own it will need to be done in 45mm x 2.5mm or 50mm x 2mm tubing for the complete structure and follow the drawings detailed in
the blue book. And take care to follow the regulations regarding how the cage is attached to the chassis it's self. And my advice would be to
use tubing to MSA 500 specification or equivelent specification.
If you are wanting to use a rollcage that uses lighter tubing of a smaller diameter you need to get the desighn fully FIA/MSA certificated ( cost is
around 2k ) and involves having the cage and chassis as a complete structure including it's mountings fully analyised and stress tested by
MIRA.
Now you can buy a certifcated rollcage to fit a book chassis. But in order for it to actually be CERTIFICATED and LEGAL for use under FIA/MSA
conditions it has to be fitted by the people who are registered on the certifcate that goes with the desighn. so in the case of the CAGED version
which is used by many in the LOCOST championship it has to be fully manufactured by Caged and fully fitted by Caged to comply. Anybody else welding it
together and fitting it are doing so ILLEGALY .
There is however ONE company who will fit a fully FIA/MSA certificated to the very latest standards to a locost chassis. And they will provide a
certificate for you to present to the scrutineers when asked .
Cheers Matt
PS given that 2009 is now when the MSA are enforcing many of the Roll Over Protection Systems ( ROPS ) regulations it would be wise for every one to
ensure they are fully comliant with the FIA/MSA regulations including there mountings. And be able to produce a certificate for there certificated
desighns with proof of who fitted it.
[Edited on 6/3/09 by procomp]
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Rob Palin
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| posted on 26/2/09 at 07:35 PM |
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Another improvement in the field of safety by the MSA. Shame that at the same time they still allow people to race without roll cages and sometimes
even seatbelts in other (historic) formulae.
This does leave a good chunk of the 2009 Locost grid up the swanny, however. Nice one.
Anyone raise the point of having such a carefully engineered rollcage mounted to a chassis that can 'legally' be built by any private
individual in their own shed? Shouldn't we now have to get professionally-built chassis with accompanying official crash safety certificates?
I can't see a reason why that wouldn't be a perfectly valid implication of the MSA's logic in this rule. Farcical.
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procomp
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| posted on 26/2/09 at 08:15 PM |
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Hi Rob
These are not new regulations these are regulations that have been in force for a long time. Joe blogs can still build his own roll cage from 45 x 2.5
or 50 x 2 as long as it follows the relevant drawings in the blue book.
Just be glad you are not designing your own single seater as that has to go for full FIA crash testing. And the cost of that is huge.
Cheers Matt
Edit to say. I do not see how these regulations affect any of the locost racers already running. With the exception of the few who have been told that
there cages do not comply and are to get them changed for the 2009 season.
[Edited on 26/2/09 by procomp]
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Rob Palin
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| posted on 26/2/09 at 09:13 PM |
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I thought it would affect many racers if they needed to produce certificates stating who manufactured & fitted their roll cage? I took it from
your post above that the scrutes could call upon us to prove our compliance with the above rule?
My cage has been on for a few years now and I have no certificate for it, though it does have an original MSA design approval sticker. If the
requirement to supply a design, assembly & installation certificate only applies to new builds then sure, it doesn't affect existing racers.
If it applies to everyone then it's a bit of a problem.
It still strikes me as daft though that there are no checks or restrictions in place to see that the car itself is manufactured in such a way as to
meet any safety regulations. The roll cage on a Locost can't be considered a 'survival cell' (as it excludes the driver's
legs) so the structure of the car itself is undoubtedly a vital safety component. To require that to be suitably tested & validated is surely
just as legitimate a requirement as for the roll cage? My point is that to pick on one aspect of the structural safety of the car but to neglect an
equally significant one isn't exactly a coherent safety strategy.
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pointy
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| posted on 27/2/09 at 10:21 AM |
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Roll cages
Guys,
As the designated rep for this formula I will at the first meeting raise the question of roll cages and their legality ref M.S.A regs. I have just
read the section and as matt correctly said anyone can make a roll cage provided they comply with regs. what I cannot see is the wording that says
roll cages are to be certified. My main concern reading this thread is the potential for newbies (and existing) to panic and buy an expensive roll
cage when there is no need. I have already been informed that at least 2 of our fellow racers have purchased catalytic converters on the strength of
scare mongering. Leave this (along with the question of piston cast numbers)with me and I will come back with an answer.
andy p
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procomp
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| posted on 27/2/09 at 01:57 PM |
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Hi Andy
The regs are very clear regarding roll cages. Any one can fabricate there own cage in 45 x2.5 or 50 x 2 . Anything that is off smaller tubing HAS to
be certificated by the MSA / FIA and have full testing through MIRA. The only two companies that produce a roll cage in the smaller tubing that is
certificated to fit a book chassis are CAGED and ourselves PROCOMP. If you read the CAGED certificate which i have it clearly states that the only
people able to fit there cage is CAGED. As with our own design the only people able to fit our design is PROCOMP. It is illegal to sell a certificated
design cage in kit form and let Joe blogs weld it up at home. Anybody fitting the cage has to be registered with the MSA on the certificate as a
registered agent of the company.
Again these are not new regulations these are the regulations that the MSA/FIA have been working with for quite some time. I am not seeing where the
complication is.
Cheers Matt
PS Andy if you would like a copy of the same documents that both the MSA/FIA and the scrutineers are working to i can provide you with a copy.
EDIT The questions raised at the AFD regarding piston numbers has been sorted. The Coding letters after the main part number refer to manufacturing
plant and production line. And NOT piston design / dimensions.
[Edited on 27/2/09 by procomp]
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alistairolsen
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| posted on 27/2/09 at 02:11 PM |
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Does anyone have a copy of a home build cage design which is blue book compliant and can be distributed with the permission of the owner?
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Ian-B
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| posted on 27/2/09 at 02:12 PM |
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The only area I can see causing problems, is that up until last year the blue book permitted smaller tubing, I think it was under Cc41, that has been
removed this year.
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TMC Motorsport
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| posted on 2/3/09 at 01:55 PM |
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Hi Matt and everyone,
I dont regularly post on this forum, but do try to keep an eye on whats going on.
Matt, it seems we must have different copies of the Caged certificate, as the one I have makes no mention of an approved list of installers, and has
an addendum page for ROPS supplied in kit form, which would seem to allow them to be fitted by people other than Caged, as long as the basic design is
not altered from that which has been tested.
If the kits are illegal, it sort of begs the question, why do Caged supply them? Why don't they inform the customer that they have to be fitted
in-house, and effectively make more money from doing it?
Cheers,
Matt Cherrington
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procomp
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| posted on 3/3/09 at 08:21 AM |
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Hi
Hi i suggest you have a word with John symes ( head of technical ) at the MSA then. You can put the identification stickers on the cages BUT can you
provide certificates for the individual cages. IE the right ones printed on MSA security paper not a copy. As no driver with one of those cages has
managed to so far.
When i was at the last ROPS meeting with the MSA ( As was Kieth Messer ) it was explained to ALL ROPS manufacturers that this procedure was not within
the MSA/FIA regulations. Unless you are specifically named on the certificate as a caged fitting agent you are not allowed to fit that cage. On the
certifcate for that cage number it dose have a page that clearly says that the suppliers are CAGED. And CAGED are the only companie listed on the
certifcate as fitting agents.
And i DO have all the paper work from the MSA/FIA that clearly spells out what can and can not be done.
Cheers Matt
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ironside
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| posted on 3/3/09 at 01:49 PM |
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Urgh, I hope I don't come a cropper with this - I have a cage fitted by TMC Motorsport on my car. It has no sticker and no certificate.
It would be a real shame to go all the way down to Snetterton just to be turned away.
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TMC Motorsport
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| posted on 3/3/09 at 03:07 PM |
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Simon,
As far as I'm aware you should be fine. We can issue you with the correct sticker and have a copy of an MSA certificate should one be
demanded.
Following what Matt has been saying I'm going to get the details checked, but if you are turned away, then so will half the grid!
Cheers,
Matt
PS the car is looking great from the picture! Looking forward to seeing it in the flesh.
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Rob Palin
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| posted on 3/3/09 at 09:26 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by procomp
When i was at the last ROPS meeting with the MSA ( As was Kieth Messer ) it was explained to ALL ROPS manufacturers that this procedure was not within
the MSA/FIA regulations. Unless you are specifically named on the certificate as a caged fitting agent you are not allowed to fit that cage. On the
certifcate for that cage number it dose have a page that clearly says that the suppliers are CAGED. And CAGED are the only companie listed on the
certifcate as fitting agents.
And i DO have all the paper work from the MSA/FIA that clearly spells out what can and can not be done.
Cheers Matt
Unfortunately for us the description of all this in the Blue Book is laughably brief and contains none of this detail. Sections C(c) 28-30 are all we
seem to get and this says nothing at all about who can / can't install a manufacturer's cage. It also mentions that there are loads that
the ROPS needs to be able to withstand but then doesn't state what they are.
If those regulations are supplementary to but as mandatory as those detailed in the Blue Book then it should reference them explicitly, especially as
they are written in such a way as not to prohibit home-made cages. In fact you could say that this DIY approach is assumed, since it gives suggested
designs and professional manufacture is covered under a separate heading.
Also you'd kind of think someone should mention it to the people who sell all the mail order roll cage kits in the Demon Tweeks catalogues, as
by this version of the rules they would all be illegal by default.
What annoys me is the potential this season for the MSA to claim someone is in breach of what are essentially inconsistent, illogical and even
partially unpublished regulations. To enforce them in their current form would have about as much integrity as a viagra-flogging spam email.
It's just a shame that this doesn't mean they won't do it.
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MikeR
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| posted on 3/3/09 at 10:07 PM |
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Matt, in your opinion (note folks, i'm asking for his view - not what is written down or what the MSA will say).
Do you think if I as a racer bought a cage manufactured by someone else to the home builder standards that would be deemed as acceptable?
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