britishtrident
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| posted on 17/9/07 at 06:49 PM |
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Were McLaren Setup from day one ?
(1) In this day of 4gb pen drives why would anybody smugle out, pass on and photocopy a 780 page document ? Even if the document came out of Ferrari
in paper form why didn't Coughlan just order an industrial grade photo copier/scanner out of his McLaren budget.
(2) Why when reading the emails between de la Rosa and Alonso do they seem almost scripted same hand to be used as evidence ?
(3) Why was Alonso not punished ?
(4)Why has the son of a black shirt got his knife into Lewis Hamilton who is totally innocent. ?
(5) Why is the son of a black shirt calling big Ron a liar -- when it was he who reported Alonso and de la Rosa. ?
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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designer
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| posted on 17/9/07 at 06:54 PM |
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we will never know the truth.
The point is that the McLaren chief designer was found with Ferrari documents. As with all industry, it's the man in charge who is ultimately
responsible; that's Ron.
They were found guilty, so they should be kicked out. Simple!
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britishtrident
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| posted on 17/9/07 at 06:58 PM |
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passing thought --- Mclaren should buy the photocopier shop and shut it down
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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ecosse
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| posted on 17/9/07 at 07:01 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
(1) In this day of 4gb pen drives why would anybody smugle out, pass on and photocopy a 780 page document ? Even if the document came out of Ferrari
in paper form why didn't Coughlan just order an industrial grade photo copier/scanner out of his McLaren budget.
Complacency?
quote:
(2) Why when reading the emails between de la Rosa and Alonso do they seem almost scripted same hand to be used as evidence ?
Not sure the mail as reported was actually what was recovered, looked more like dummied up mail for the press IMO
quote:
(3) Why was Alonso not punished ?
He, like pedro and LH were given an exemtion from punishment if they provided evidence
quote:
(4)Why has the son of a black shirt got his knife into Lewis Hamilton who is totally innocent. ?
(5) Why is the son of a black shirt calling big Ron a liar -- when it was he who reported Alonso and de la Rosa. ?
Excuse my ignorance, but whats a black shirt?
I also think that the FIA wanted more to get McLaren than have justice for anything in particular, no one denies that this kind of thing goes on all
the time, and ferrari for 1 have been caught at this b4 with never a murmur from the FIA 
Cheers
Alex
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 17/9/07 at 07:03 PM |
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Black Shirts
Members of Mussolini's fascist movement in Italy.
(Also the followers of Oswald Mosley's fascists in the UK)
[Edited on 17/9/07 by David Jenkins]
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x_flow57
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| posted on 17/9/07 at 07:05 PM |
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FIA = Ferrari International Assistance. 
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ecosse
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| posted on 17/9/07 at 07:08 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by x_flow57
FIA = Ferrari International Assistance.
Or
Fecking Incompetent Ar**holes
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ecosse
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| posted on 17/9/07 at 07:14 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by David Jenkins
Black Shirts
Members of Mussolini's fascist movement in Italy.
(Also the followers of Oswald Mosley's fascists in the UK)
[Edited on 17/9/07 by David Jenkins]
Thanks for the explanation, but who is the "black shirt" in question?
(Although whoever it is obviously creates strong feelings of dissaproval  )
Cheers
Alex
PS
Sorry again, I must be having a thick head day 
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iank
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| posted on 17/9/07 at 07:19 PM |
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Max Mosley is Oswald's second son.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Mosley
--
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
Anonymous
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ecosse
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| posted on 17/9/07 at 07:24 PM |
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Bloody hell, they can't be serious, can they?
quote:
Mosley let it be known that he feels that Jean Todt should succeed him as president of the FIA when he steps down.
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 17/9/07 at 08:05 PM |
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Courtesy of Sniff Petrol
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Agriv8
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| posted on 17/9/07 at 08:12 PM |
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Reading between the lines and adding more conspiracy.
Mosley and Ferrari and the american grandprix when only 4 cars 'Raced ' I belive there was a rumour that the Mr Mosley hold's a
grudge against our 'Ron' on the grounds that he led the rest of the teams in the 1 lap then in !.
I belive that most of the ones chosen for the investigation by the FIA have 'Links' / 'Linked ' with ferrari.
I find it strange that the dosier would exist in paper 'Technical draws on Cad piles of simulation calculations ect ect.
But I really feel that mclaren have been set-up good and propper.
regards
Agriv8
Taller than your average Guy !
Management is like a tree of monkeys. - Those at the top look down and see a tree full of smiling faces. BUT Those at the bottom look up and see a
tree full of a*seholes .............
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robinj66
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| posted on 17/9/07 at 08:20 PM |
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Have a look at the WMSC judgment - fills in a lot of gaps (although I don't necessarily agree with the conclusions or the punishment imposed)
http://fia1.greencathedral.com/resources/documents/17844641__WMSC_Decision_130907.pdf
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omega 24 v6
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| posted on 17/9/07 at 08:31 PM |
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WELL I'm sort of glad that B. Trident has asked this question as it has sprung to my mind a couple of times. As it is we seem to be the only
ones thinking the same things mate.
IT JUST DOESN'T ADD UP AT ALL
Looks like Max has decided Ron has got to go. Why is he being the only one outspoken about the whole scenario out with the FIA conference room. A
quote in the paper today had him saying that a minority wanted Mclaren totally out for this season and they were all Lawyers. Does this mean we
haven't heard the end of this??? Will it spill into the courtrooms???? Certainly IMHO it looks likely and this is probably why Ron has basically
said that if he pays the fine then he wants total closure. I also thought that Max was two faced saying one thing to the interveiwer and then
expecting Ron to shake hands as if they were best buddies.
Could this whole thing have been set up?? Why?? to discredit a self built and financed company that has come from a mans dream and become more than
capable of beating the FIAT team. If so expect to see Alonso driving a red car sooner rather than later.
AM I the only one that thought Alonso's attitude at the weekend was one of smug arrogance???
Hamilton is also quoted today as saying Alonso tried a dirty move on him. I don't think so but it was good to watch (prolly the only bit that
was).
If it looks wrong it probably is wrong.
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TPG
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| posted on 17/9/07 at 09:03 PM |
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I always belivied that McLaren made fantastic toothpaste.Those Floride people have always been bother......
I'll get me coat......
..Which was nice..
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Hellfire
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| posted on 17/9/07 at 09:19 PM |
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Regardless of whether anybody thinks they were set up or not, McLaren cheated. They got caught cheating and they have to be punished. These
people are professional sportsmen (and women) at the pinnacle of their profession in motorsport. They knew what they were doing was wrong, yet they
still did it. They should have known better.
I also don't think for one minute that it's an attempt to get Ron out. If that was their intention, McLaren could have been punished more
severely and also had constructors points deducted next season.
With the backing of Mercedes, Vodafone and numerous other sponsors such as Santander, Johnnie Walker, Aigo, Henkel, Schuco, ’MM’, Mobil 1 and
Bridgestone, the $100m fine is just a drop in the ocean and will be easily paid off.
They cheated, they got caught and yes, maybe they were unlucky. One thing is for certain - they will be a stronger, even more formidable team next
season, provided they can keep Lewis Hamilton.
Question is, will they be good enough to beat the 1999 - 2004 constructors champion?
Personally, I think they should stick to doing what they do best - Manufacturing buggies and push-chairs!!
Phil
[Edited on 17-9-07 by Hellfire]
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Dingz
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| posted on 17/9/07 at 10:28 PM |
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quote:
McLaren cheated. They got caught cheating and they have to be punished.
But weren't Ferrari also cheating with at least a flexible floor, and were they punished? only by having a slower car when they changed it!
ps. my Dad was involved in a skirmish with Moseleys lot in the 30s!
[Edited on 17/9/07 by Dingz]
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omega 24 v6
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| posted on 17/9/07 at 10:30 PM |
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Well the plot thickens!!!!!!!!
Mclaren may complain about Renault having confidential info according to teletext.
It may press for action but instead of it all being saved for the fia hearing MAX has already stated that they're complaint regards an employee
leaving and taking a few floppy discs with him. So that'll be alright then will it????
Hellfire I think none of us would disagree that elements of Mclaren were "cheating" but the fact that Ron went to the Fia himself after
being told by Alonso on THAT weekend IMHO goes to show he was not at that time aware of it. As such why does it suck that the team has to bear the
brunt of the FIA's wrath instead of the two drivers and the technical guy involved. Perhaps they're the one's that needed fined or
banned from the sport. How the hell do you stop information changing hands when drivers are moving every season. Don't tell me that they
don't use something learnt at previous team to make changes at they're new team.
If it looks wrong it probably is wrong.
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RK
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| posted on 18/9/07 at 02:11 AM |
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What happened to Stepney? I think perhaps he was just looking for a job, since apparently some of the English guys had left Ferrari recently and he
wasn't happy with it. Just a question; I don't get the papers full of info like you lot do, and I'm too lazy to read all the blogs.
As with all well-informed car crazed loony's, I get my info right here!!
This "Fascist Max vs. Ron" is ridiculous nonsense - his family's past is a bit tainted and the whole world knows it now (instead of
just a few know-it-alls like me); whose isn't if you dig enough?.
ps. Lewis had better learn to toughen up if he wants to be world champion, because FA isn't going to let him by that easily.
[Edited on 18/9/07 by RK]
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nitram38
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| posted on 18/9/07 at 04:53 AM |
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All of the teams "cheat".
Drivers take information with them when they leave.
If you see a new nose on a ferrari, you can guarantee all the cars will have one in a few races. Look at those litte wings that now stick out either
side of the driver.
Unfortunately, Maclaren got caught and were made an example of.
Seems to be the way of the world.
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britishtrident
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| posted on 18/9/07 at 07:58 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by iank
Max Mosley is Oswald's second son.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Mosley
A bit more detail on the Wikipedia article on Oswald Mosley
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oswald_Mosley
Quote
Cynthia died of peritonitis in 1933, which left Mosley (though stricken with grief and remorse) free to marry his then current mistress Diana
Guinness, née Mitford, (one of the celebrated Mitford sisters). They married in secret in 1936, in the Berlin home of Nazi chief Joseph Goebbels.
Adolf Hitler was one of the guests. By Diana Mitford, he had two sons: Alexander (b. 1938) and Max Mosley (b. 1940), who is president of the FIA.
Mosley spent large amounts of his private fortune on the BUF and tried to establish it on a firm financial footing by negotiating, through Diana, with
Adolf Hitler for permission to broadcast commercial radio to Britain from Germany.
End quote
Max Mosley's mother (who has since had died) was on Radio 4 Dessert Island Discs about 4 or 5 years back saying what a nice man Hitler was.
According to her obituary in the Daily Telegraph, among her jewels was a diamond swastika.
[Edited on 18/9/07 by britishtrident]
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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nick205
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| posted on 18/9/07 at 08:48 AM |
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I'm afraid I don't consider F1 to be a sport and haven't for a long time. F1 along with the FIA is basically a private financial
institution. It's populated and dominated by wealthy powerful people with too much personal gain/loss at stake to allow it to operate as a true
sport. It's the same for Premiership football IMHO.
IMHO McClaren have been shafted by Ferrari, the FIA, bad apple employees and worst of all Alonso. Alonso IMHO is a poor (if talented) sportsman who
cannot cope with competition pressure. I beleive Alonso should have been punished by the FIA for his role in this fiasco. If I were Ron Dennis
I'd also be prepared to try and pay his way out of the McClaren team with immediate effect.
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James
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| posted on 18/9/07 at 11:03 AM |
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At the end of the day, Ron is paying for politics he's been involved in since the 90's.
The issues with setting up the new Concorde Agreement, the GPMasters series etc. etc. Were the manufacturer based cars gonna setup their own series
etc. etc.
All that stuff has weed Mosley, Ecclestone off, and now they've got a chance to hammer Ron.
At the same time, if they'd punished the drivers then it would destroy for the public the first interesting series that's engaged more
viewers in years.... the last thing they want.
Cheers,
James
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses, behind the lines, in the gym and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights."
- Muhammad Ali
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cossey
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| posted on 18/9/07 at 11:07 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Dingz
quote:
McLaren cheated. They got caught cheating and they have to be punished.
But weren't Ferrari also cheating with at least a flexible floor, and were they punished? only by having a slower car when they changed it!
ps. my Dad was involved in a skirmish with Moseleys lot in the 30s!
[Edited on 17/9/07 by Dingz]
ferraris floor was not illegal as at the time the rules were the floor mustnt move under a certain load and ferraris didnt but it did move under large
loads which were found at high speeds so against the spirit but not the letter of the law Mclaren sort clarification from the fia who changed the
wording of the rules and the ferrari floor became illegal and was changed as was bmws.
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britishtrident
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| posted on 18/9/07 at 11:42 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by cossey
quote:
Originally posted by Dingz
quote:
McLaren cheated. They got caught cheating and they have to be punished.
But weren't Ferrari also cheating with at least a flexible floor, and were they punished? only by having a slower car when they changed it!
ps. my Dad was involved in a skirmish with Moseleys lot in the 30s!
[Edited on 17/9/07 by Dingz]
ferraris floor was not illegal as at the time the rules were the floor mustnt move under a certain load and ferraris didnt but it did move under large
loads which were found at high speeds so against the spirit but not the letter of the law Mclaren sort clarification from the fia who changed the
wording of the rules and the ferrari floor became illegal and was changed as was bmws.
In effect it was a version of Chapman's Lotus 88 revisited --- the same idea that Ferrari got the FIA to instantly ban although already deemed
OK by the scrutes.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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