Rob Allison
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| posted on 25/4/04 at 07:41 AM |
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tube supplier?
Hi all, I'm after some pipe tube steel to make a De Dion axel. The problem is i can't find a local supplier. First off i need to know an i
asking for the right stuff, ERW Tube. Most places ain't got a clue what i'm asking for. i'm in the teesside area.
And does anyone know what sizes it is available in?
Thanks
Rob.
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NS Dev
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| posted on 25/4/04 at 08:10 AM |
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I would not use ERW (electrically resistance welded) tube for the de-dion axle. As you will only need around 1m anyway, I would go for cold finished
seamless (usually called CFS or CDS (cold drawn seamless))
You want either CFS 3 or CFS 2 tube in either "as finished" or "normalised" conditions (these will be what most places stock
anyway)
for a very small quantity like this your best bet will be metalsupermarkets, there is one in Gateshead, tel 0191 4872144. They may not carry CFS but
should be able to get it in for you.
Size wise for the axle you would want to be looking at 45 or 50mm x 2.5 or 3mm, or imperial equivalent.
Also worth having a look in the yellow pages at any fabricators in your area, pop in and see them, they may have an offcut os something suitable
laying about if you buy them a beer or two!
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marc n
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| posted on 25/4/04 at 09:14 AM |
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try elmdon metal in york they keep a good stock of cds and t45
regards
marc
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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Rob Allison
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| posted on 25/4/04 at 09:29 AM |
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Already got the cold rolled tube for making pinto turbo manifolds, just seems a bit heavy gauge for the job.
Will start ringing through the yellow pages on monday.
What about scaffold pipe??
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NS Dev
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| posted on 25/4/04 at 09:34 AM |
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what is the wall thickness of the cold rolled tube that you already have? As long as it is not over 3mm then it is fine, 45mm od 3mm wall is only
3.1kg per m.
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undecided
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| posted on 25/4/04 at 10:00 AM |
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Why use cds anyway when erw is more than good enough.
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Rob Allison
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| posted on 25/4/04 at 11:04 AM |
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If i could find erw pipe i'll use it as its lighter The pipe i have is 3mm wall and not light weight at all.
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rash
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| posted on 25/4/04 at 11:06 AM |
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steel tube
can get you a piece of tube if u give me length going to stoneleigh on monday can bring with me if you dont need over 52 inches long or it wont fit in
boot i made my own de-dion if u want u can look in photos
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Rob Allison
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| posted on 25/4/04 at 11:23 AM |
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I'll let you know thanks. Not sure if i'm going to stoneleigh yet. If i get the clutch changed in my RS2000 i'll be there.
Oh at the robin hood club(I'm a member), great club by the way if anyone is interested.
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Rob Allison
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| posted on 25/4/04 at 11:26 AM |
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Rash, Just looked at your photos. Top stuff. how did you bend the pipe? I was going to cut and reweld.
Also how did the shortening of the drive shafts go need to do mine too.
[Edited on 25/4/04 by Rob Allison]
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Peteff
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| posted on 25/4/04 at 11:59 AM |
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Could you use exhaust type tubing if you don't want heavy wall gauge? It's available in various diameters for different cars so one should
suit.
yours, Pete
I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.
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britishtrident
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| posted on 25/4/04 at 01:16 PM |
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Prop shaft tubing would be fine if you can fid a long enough shaft.
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marc n
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| posted on 25/4/04 at 02:25 PM |
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If you are after erw tube try tayside Tubes ( Marston Moor Business park )
quote:
Originally posted by Rob Allison
If i could find erw pipe i'll use it as its lighter The pipe i have is 3mm wall and not light weight at all.
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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rash
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| posted on 25/4/04 at 03:09 PM |
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de-dion
the tube was bent in a pipe bender hudraulic type the shafts i just made two small sleeves then cut and welded not run yet though so dont quite know
how it will go ?? will have to wait and see.
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Rob Allison
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| posted on 25/4/04 at 03:36 PM |
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Thanks for the info. Just need to get me arse in gear now
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blueshift
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| posted on 25/4/04 at 04:31 PM |
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Spoke to darren of GTS tuning at detling about why they use a welded tube rather than a bent one, he said something about it being a basic engineering
principle that you don't stress a bent tube.
something to consider?
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RichieW
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| posted on 25/4/04 at 09:09 PM |
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For a supplier try Corus metalshops in Middlesbrough. They are in the yellow pages. They deliver for a small charge. The bloke I got on the phone was
friendly and helpful despite me not knowing anything about about what I was ordering and the small amounts I was buying.
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Rob Allison
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| posted on 25/4/04 at 09:53 PM |
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Richie, Did you get you all your metal from them? I got my 25mm box tube from carter steel but its thick walled stuff.
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NS Dev
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| posted on 26/4/04 at 07:00 AM |
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Hi again! I would not use ERW for this job, simple as that. If you want to then go ahead, but weld it in the wrong place then twist it and it will
peel open. I never use ERW in unsprung suspension components in any of the cars I have built.
As for the weight issue, if you use 45mm x 3mm CDS then you are talking 4.1 kg as the weight per m is 3.1 kg. I do not think this is a big area for
weight saving.
I would certainly not use exhaust tubing! This is not structural tube and also will be nowhere near thick enough to do the job.
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undecided
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| posted on 26/4/04 at 07:14 AM |
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Bending tubes is ok for furniture,take a look at a Duke...straight cut and shut welded tubes........fastest bike in GP's........enough said i
think
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NS Dev
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| posted on 26/4/04 at 08:18 AM |
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I wasn't going to say it Syd, as I have put enough fuel on the bonfire by saying not to use ERW (same weld problem as you mention above) But I
would completely agree!! As you say, roll cages are specifically bent not welded. Many production (well, semi-production like Aston and Daf) used bent
de-dion tubes, that's certainly the way I would do it!! The only benefit to cutting and welding as I see it is that it might be easier to keep
the ends parallel! Having said that you can always tweak the axle in the pipe bender again once the hub flanges are welded on!
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Rob Allison
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| posted on 26/4/04 at 08:51 AM |
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I didn't want to open a can of worms here, just find some pipe. I now have some sed 80 50mm hp gas pipe should do the job if a bit heavy though.
As for bent or welded ??? each has its advantages, bent should be stronger. But i ain't got a bender. So correctly welded and braced for what i
want should be ok. Hope you agree.
I have seen suspension components form kit manufactures using ERW tube. The frame of my RHE 2b is 38mm ERW tube. Don't say it i know you get
what you pay for.
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imull
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| posted on 26/4/04 at 10:24 AM |
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If you are wanting to save weight or use a high spec steel with this, it might be worth looking at T45 (slightly higher spec than Chro-Moly tube)steel
from Elmdon Metals.
Its Ultimate tensile strength is twice that of CDS meaning you can use thinner wall sections. This is the material that is used for World Rally Car
roll-cages and is very very strong for its weight...
It also needs no treatment after welding.
[Edited on 26/4/04 by imull]
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NS Dev
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| posted on 26/4/04 at 04:19 PM |
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Sorry to divert the thread again, but the mention of "T45" tube prompted me!
As Imull said it is very strong, so very thin sections can be used, and for a locost probably an "ultimate" construction material. A few
words of caution though.
Chrome-Moly (4130) tube does need care when welding, it is prone to embrittlement and can crack very easily around heat affected zones (this is why
often 4130 struxtures are stress relieved after welding)
Interestingly, I heard that although a leading rollcage manufacturer supplies T45 cages, it's proprietor does not use them in his own racing
cars (National GT's) as they are susceptible to failure in multiple rolls. He used standard CFS tube.
The point made was that though the T45 was much stronger at the first impact, it work hardened and cracked and then fractured at a second or third
impact, whereas the standard CDS, though weaker, bent several times without cracking. thus preserving the structure of the car better.
All this said, the consequences of an accident of this level of severity in the type of cars discussed on this forum would be pretty much irrelevant
anyway as the structure of the car that the cage is attached to would fail anyway!
Second point is that to comply with MSA rules, if you are building your own cage, the material must comply with the MSA minimum thicknesses anyway
which makes no discretion between T45 or normal CFS.
Just to point out that there are two sides to every coin!
Nat.
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Rob Allison
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| posted on 26/4/04 at 04:44 PM |
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Ah interesting as i have an escort that i'am going to space frame for sprint/hill climb use and T45 had been mentioned, but hard to weld.
Looks like CDS then.
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