-Viper-
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| posted on 20/7/03 at 11:07 PM |
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Help On Building First Car For Newbie!??
Just wondering what advice people could offer me on building a kit car and where to get the kits and parts. Have never attempted anything like this
before but have always liked to try.
What sort of costs am I looking at for a complete car? I like the Lotus / Caterham type cars, so it would be something along these lines. Any other
suggestions?
What do you get in the actual kits themselves and where can you get them? Is the best place for a new engine a breakers yard? If so what engines are
suitable for the above type cars?
Any help, tips or suggestions on building will be most appreciated.
Thanks all.
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craig1410
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| posted on 21/7/03 at 12:39 AM |
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Hi and welcome!
You are asking for a lot of information here in one shot so I'd suggest that you buy one or more of the books which most of us base our ideas
on. You will tend to get more help on this forum once you start to ask more specific questions because it is just too much to tell you all you need to
know in one shot.
Here are some links to the books you need (from Amazon):
Build your own sports car for as little as £250
or
How to build your own Tiger Avon sportscar for Road and Track
Most people end up buying both of these books if they want to use independent rear suspension (IRS) but if it's one of the other then I'd
recommend the first book as it has much better drawings and plans. Both books have errors though so watch out. You can get info on errors by searching
this forum or asking someone.
A reasonable budget for a Locost seems to be £2000-3000 but it can be cheaper or more expensive depending on how much experience you have, how many
tools you already own and how resourceful you are. I hope to complete my car within 18 months for £2500. Check out my website as it will answer many
of the first questions you need answers for and give you an idea of what to expect.
Well I hope this is useful and I hope you don't think I am "ducking" your questions too much. I think once you have bought
"the book" you will at least know what it's all about and can start asking some specific questions.
Check out the websites for Luego Sports cars (above),
Stuart Taylor Motorsport (www.stuart-taylor.co.uk),
MK Engineering (http://www.mkengineering.co.uk/) - Very good!
There are others such as Tiger who build the Avon but the above should get you started.
Hope this helps,
Craig.
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leto
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| posted on 21/7/03 at 06:20 AM |
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quote]Originally posted by -Viper-
Just wondering what advice people could offer me on building a kit car and where to get the kits and parts. Have never attempted anything like this
before but have always liked to try.
Try to get a clear picture of what use you want to make of the car.
The first try on anything is seldom a masterpiece (children excepted). You can be more relaxed if you tell yourself you are going to build another
some day.
Aim for a "runner", most things can be updated and improved on a "completed" car. Or it will have to wait until the next one
you build. 
quote:
........
Is the best place for a new engine a breakers yard? If so what engines are suitable for the above type cars?
You usually get better value, lots of other usful parts and a chance to test, if you buy a complete car.
Suitable engines have low weight, lots of valves, and general high performance. Most of us use 8-valve cast iron, standard motors from Ford.  This
is called "adaptation to reality" and usualy strikes when we take the step from dreaming to doing.
Happy building!
Leif
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-Viper-
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| posted on 21/7/03 at 12:01 PM |
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Excellent. Thanks, this does help. Sorry for asking a lot, but just trying to get an idea what its like and what its all about. I am reading Car
Builders Manual at the minute and am picking up 'How to build your own sports car' today from the library.
I am interested in building a car maninly for road use but would consider using it for track. I have also had the thought of using the same engine
from my Golf, a 16 valve one bt I will have a look at the book to get a better idea about all this.
Thanks again for your help. Has been very useful.
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jcduroc
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| posted on 21/7/03 at 01:41 PM |
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-Viper- (another one?)
quote:
Originally posted by leto
Suitable engines have low weight, lots of valves, and general high performance. Most of us use 8-valve cast iron, standard motors from Ford. This
is called "adaptation to reality" and usualy strikes when we take the step from dreaming to doing.
Leif
Very well put Leif. That's why I have a 1600 Pinto engine instead of a 170 bhp Focus Zetec or Cosworth BDA.
And I'll use Cortina/Taunus uprights instead of some "nicely designed by me cast ones" and so on and on.
Start the simplest way and maybe later it will become a "jewell".
Joćo Matoso
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craig1410
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| posted on 21/7/03 at 01:44 PM |
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Hi again,
I missed the bit about engines and would agree up to a point with Leif. However, in my opinion this all depends on your own abilities. If you can
follow existing plans but don't have the experience of confidence (mainly the latter) to adapt a "non-standard" engine to fit then
stick with Ford Iron-block engines as Leif says. But, if you have some experience/confidence and don't want to be stuck with a ford x-flow then
look at options such as: Rover K-Series (very light and powerful especially in 1.8 VVC guise); Rover V8 (My choice - all alloy block and thus lighter
than a Ford Pinto 2 Litre - BEAUTIFUL sound!!); Toyota 4AGE 16Valve twin-cam (Corolla Gti - Good engine but harder to find now); Ford Zetec (Becoming
more popular); Vauxhall 16V DOHC (Don't know much about it but someone (Stu16V?) is using one I think); Bike engine (eg. Fireblade engine - very
light and quick but a bit buzzy for cruising and they have their own installation woes and compromises)
There are various options as you can see and each has its challenges. The Rover V8 requires a wider and ideally longer engine bay which is not a big
problem in itself but might make it difficult to use off the shelf body bits later.
For you, I'd probably recommend the K-Series 1.6 or 1.8 engine which I think (please check) mates with a Ford Type 9 gearbox using an adapter
plate. It is a very good engine and should be readily available in the scrap yards. Wiring for the electronics will be more awkward and you'd be
well advised to get the whole car to ensure that you get everything (sensors, black boxes, wiring, connectors etc)
Don't let the apparent complexity bewilder you. As I said at the start you can't expect to absorb everything in one go. Just try to decide
what you want from the project and set some targets (eg. Budget, Timescale, Peformance etc). Then start reading up on what's what and make some
key decisions once you know enough to make them. Examples of the key decisions are things like whether to make or buy the chassis, which engine to
use.
Good luck and don't hesitate to let us know if you need any further advice to get you started.
Cheers,
Craig.
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James
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| posted on 21/7/03 at 01:59 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by -Viper-
Excellent. Thanks, this does help. Sorry for asking a lot, but just trying to get an idea what its like and what its all about. I am reading Car
Builders Manual at the minute and am picking up 'How to build your own sports car' today from the library.
I am interested in building a car maninly for road use but would consider using it for track. I have also had the thought of using the same engine
from my Golf, a 16 valve one bt I will have a look at the book to get a better idea about all this.
Thanks again for your help. Has been very useful.
I've heard of people using this engine in a mid-engine car. Not sure you'd find it terribly easy to fit in a Locost though.
For a start you'd need to find a compatible gearbox- have a look on the web, you might find something.
But more importantly it'll be a nightmare to fit under the bonnet.
I've got a MK2 Golf and it's really tall just from sump to tappet cover. Factor in the 16v plenum chamber and it'll need a bulge so
high it'll obscure your vision!
If you do find a way then tell us as I'd be interested!
Good Luck,
James
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-Viper-
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| posted on 21/7/03 at 06:23 PM |
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Yeah, i'd thought about the size being a problem. They are quite tall and I thought this would prove to be a problem.
What is the displacement of the Rover V8 engine, or do they come in varieties? Also, which cars are these in? (Or is it just called the rover V8? Not
much knowledge about them!)
Got the Ron Champion book this morning and had a flick through. Looks interesting. Let the learning begin!!
Cheers all!
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paulbeyer
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| posted on 21/7/03 at 09:14 PM |
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Viper,
This is my 2 pennies worth. First decide if you are going to build your own chassis or purchase a ready built one. You can find advice about this on
this forum but the final choice is something only you can make based on budget, welding ability, availability of tools and time etc. My Dad is a coded
welder with more than 40 years experience and I already had a Mig welder but I still decided to go for an MK Indy chassis. Once that decision is made
you can then decide on the type of engine you wish to install and here you can make things as simple or complicated as you wish. This will have a
bearing on the type of donor you go for. Here I decided to go for a Sierra as a single donor as they are cheap and plentiful and a single source for
all your major components. My donor cost £30 and that supplied engine, box, diff, drive shafts, steering column, brakes and uprights amongst other
things. At this point you will have most of the major components to put your car together, everything else youneed is readily available from many
sources including the web and kit car shows. My plan is to put my car on the road as simply as possible, not necessarily as cheap as possible, and to
upgrade certain parts at a later date whilst still being able to drive and enjoy it. The Pinto will be in for a transplant at some time for a nice
light 16V lump when one comes my way, but again I'll be in no rush.
At the end of the day you have to make a decision based on your ability and budget but at least you have found the right place for answers to any
questions you might have.
Good luck
7 out of 10 people suffer with hemorrhoids. Does that mean the other 3 enjoy them?
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craig1410
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| posted on 21/7/03 at 11:09 PM |
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-Viper-,
The Rover V8 is 3528cc as originally designed but has 3.9, 4.0 and 4.6 variants available from the Range/Land Rover series. You can also get modified
engines right up to 5.2 litres and maybe even higher.
As mentioned, the engine comes from the Range/Land Rover series but has it's roots in the old Rover SD1 (Special Developments 1) car. This is
the one which was used extensively as a police traffic car back in the 1970's and 1980's. It also used to appear on programmes like
"The Sweeney" here in the UK.
The engine is also used in certain TVR models, usually in 4.0 litre guise I think and usually tuned to a much higher power output (up to 350BHP). If
you are interested in this engine as a potential donor then let me know and I'll tell you a few things to be aware of. One of the most important
is not to blindly go for an engine from a 4x4 as these are tuned for low down torque at the expense of power. Beware also that these engines are
getting rarer (in SD1 and P6 guise) and especially with manual gearboxes. The gearbox can be expensive unless you are lucky (like me) so try to get it
all as a package where possible. You can convert automatic transmission models but again you need to be aware of a few things. As a guide, I got my
gearbox for £140 and the engine for £200 but this is probably quite cheap as the engine and 'box have only done 7k miles since a full
rebuild.
The engine itself is a beautifully simple piece of engineering and can be very reliable and long lived. As I said, it is very light for its capacity
as it is all alloy construction, and it can produce prestigious torque and power if tuned. A 3.5 litre engine will produce 155BHP as standard but with
minor tuning (air filters, port matching, better carburettor) it can easily approach 200BHP with bags of torque. If you start changing cams and
lightly modifying the heads then 250BHP can be achieved. Above that you need to do some work on the bottom end to extend the useable rev range and
keep it together but all in all it is a good engine. Most importantly it makes a lovely sound!! Check out my website using the "www" link
below to get a sample of the sound!
Hope this helps,
Craig.
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blueshift
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| posted on 22/7/03 at 02:32 AM |
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If you have money to throw at an engine, or just to read various interesting things about rover V8s, RPI Engineering
http://www.rpiv8.com/homepage.htm seem to know what they're on about.
Craig: going to see a man with an rv8 and LT77 next week.. may soon be in the part built v8 club
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leto
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| posted on 22/7/03 at 07:05 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by craig1410
Hi again,
I missed the bit about engines and would agree up to a point with Leif. However, in my opinion this all depends on ................
Good luck and don't hesitate to let us know if you need any further advice to get you started.
Cheers,
Craig.
Craig, I oppose that. You don't agree with me to a point, you agree with me fully, because I agree with you
If you have the will and means to use something else: GO DO! And don't worry to much about abilities as they usually can be acquired.
That's part of what building a car by hand is about anyway.
The important thing is that you know what you are aiming for.
Personally, my prime aim is to get four wheels on the road ( three in the fast corners ) Fastest, most convenient way for me to get there is to use
a Pinto-motor. So I do, something else wold be really nice but will have to wait till my next build.
Maybe a V8, love that sound, or a twincam Alfa Romeo, if i can find one, or one of them 3-cylinder GTI-motors, if there is a gearbox to mach. And so
on for ever and ever......
Happy building!
Leif
[Edited on 22/7/03 by leto]
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