A Frame Towing (Indy)
Kriss - 26/10/09 at 03:41 PM
Just learnt about A frames and wanted to know peoples experiences and do's/dont with them.
I am lloking to purchase a "wagon" (diesel vectra etc) to sue as a bigger grown up car that I can also occasionaly tow with to track days.
but this would mean renting a trailer to do so. (I would not be able to store the trailer anywhere sos uggestiosn of "just by a cheap single axel
jobbie" are useles)
My car is an Indy R1, has no lockable steering and is BEC.
Wanted to know if people know the legalities (ie is it only for recovery they can be used?) how likely is it you would get bollocked if so.
Could you just say you are recoverying it to a place near your intended race track lol
Worried about wear on the gearbox. obv towing in neutral but still wan to know if damage could occur.
I know they connect to track rod ends but mine are only painted and im sure some rags etc would stop most of the scraping of paint.
Best thing is these are like £250 for some places, obv I know the quality will differ dependant on price.
speedyxjs - 26/10/09 at 03:44 PM
How about this.
dhutch - 26/10/09 at 03:52 PM
quote:
Originally posted by speedyxjs
How about this.
Yeah, i liked that a lot when i saw it.
- Very good concept, odd few changes i would make, but really good.
There are certinaly loads of small trailers that can be had for £2-3-400 odd. I would very much favour that over a dolly. For me the main reason to
trailer it there is if it brakes down or i a crash it. Brake down a dolly is ok, but heavon forbid i crash, it might not go back on a dolly!!
Otherwise i bought a full sized covered trailer for £900 and it cracking. :p
Daniel
Kriss - 26/10/09 at 05:23 PM
I would not be able to store the trailer anywhere sos uggestiosn of "just by a cheap single axel jobbie" are useles
With a house renovation my garage is pretty much used everyday to get to tools etc, and the Indy is easily rolle dout a couple of foot.
With my OP i wanted to know the joys and downsides of a dolly and BEC, rather than how easy it is to get a trailer.
BTW - that ladder frame one in red does look fantastic - well done!
mark chandler - 26/10/09 at 06:00 PM
My experience with using 'A' frame were okay. I would suggest if you do this get some commercial eye bolts and fix to the front of the
chassis, do not strap to the wishbones.
Now make a cranked 'A' frame to pick up on the eye bolts with a single rod that goes through both ends.
Issues are, you cannot go backwards.
BEC gearbox is above the oil level so danger of lack of gearbox lubrication without engine running, its okay on a car as the cogs sit in the oil.
Dolly was fine as well, same restrictions as above but to be honest I found the 'A' frame less hassle.
For myself I have made a trailer that the bed is an exact fit for the car so the only extra footprint is the drawbar, this is really the way to go.
its single axle and is easier to push and pull than the car on its own.
Regards Mark
Rescued attachment Aframe.jpg
matt_claydon - 26/10/09 at 06:24 PM
Dollies and A-frames are for recovery only. There is a factsheet on the DfT website that covers this and I also posted the link here somewhere a while
ago.
That doesn't stop many people using them though, eg SMARTs behind motorhomes you see quite often.
dhutch - 26/10/09 at 06:30 PM
quote:
With my OP i wanted to know the joys and downsides of a dolly and BEC, rather than how easy it is to get a trailer.
I think as far as i know its a basic case of dollys being illegal except for recovery?
speedyxjs - 26/10/09 at 08:10 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Kriss
With a house renovation my garage is pretty much used everyday to get to tools etc, and the Indy is easily rolle dout a couple of foot.
Sorry, didnt realise
myke pocock - 26/10/09 at 08:54 PM
Interesting that this topic has come up because I am currently discussing this on the Skoda Forum regarding my Estelle trials car as i currently A
frame it. As already said, A frames are ONLY supposed to be for recovery and the speed of the towing vehicle is severely restricted. Apparently with
the big increase in the use of them on the back of those F off big motor homes the powers that be are clamping down severely and tightening up on the
rules. Rumour is that Mr Plod, the Highways Agency etc are targeting the usage particularly on the M6. My such luck, I live at the end of it and
travel most of the length of it to trials. Simple answer, get a trailer. And will the AA, RAC and other recovery companies be seen as a special case
when exceeding the speed restrictions?
balidey - 26/10/09 at 10:34 PM
OK, this is really still quite a grey area, but as far as using A-frames are concerned, it is currently NOT illegal to use one for general towing
purposes, ie non-recovery work.
The reason it is a grey area is that the DfT 'fact sheet' does not actually contain facts.
http://dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/vehicles/vssafety/factsheetaframes.pdf
They quote...
quote:
When an "A" frame is attached to a vehicle (e.g. a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (e.g. motorhome) we believe the "A"
frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in legislation as a trailer.
now this contains two very basic errors that I need to explain.
Firstly, the two words 'we believe' which means that someone writing this has made a judgement and interpreted the actual written words of
the law. This is not appropriate for a civil servant to do. It means that someone has read the law and made a decision about what they think it means.
Then they have issued guidelines on it that we are blindly following. The only people that can issue their thoughts on what a law states are high
court judges. And then they will read the actual words in isolation. Sounds complicated, but this actually happens a lot in the transport industry (of
which I work in) and I am as guilty as the person that wrote the guidelines. I have read actual law documents concerning vehicle construction and use
and interpreted it in a completely different way as someone else in my office reading the exact same words. So for them to issue a statement with the
words 'we believe' is wrong and inappropriate.
The second error in the fact sheet is saying that a towed car on an A-frame automatically becomes a trailer. Wrong. That is someone making that
decision, and its completely unfounded. If that's the case then every law relating to trailers (and that's several thousand) then becomes
relevant to your broken down car. The only person that can confirm this though is a high court judge. And he has to read the exact words in a law that
states a towed car on an a-frame becomes classed as a trailer. if they can find those words in a law, any law, then yes the use of them for
non-recovery work makes it illegal. But those words do not appear in any law, and therefore a judge can not come to that conclusion, so therefore they
are not illegal.
if a broken down car is now a trailer then you must have a Ministry of transport C number stamped to its chassis and it must undergo its own MOT style
test. Why? because its magically became a trailer. hasn't it? No, it hasn't. Thats just how one department has interpreted it. And its not
their job to interpret laws.
if it was illegal then why have there been no prosecutions? (I have not found any, but would love to hear of some, honestly). My brother uses one
every day, several times a day. He is pulled by the transport police and Vosa on a regular basis. This has been going on for years, he has had his
vehicle impounded and notices of intended prosecution etc. But all have been overturned or red faced police officers have let him go on his way. Why?
because there is no law that they can prosecute him with. Although he did have to have a tacho fitted as when he is towing large vehicles his gross
train weight goes over the threshold for towing. But this has been instructed to him by Vosa. They did not prosecute him for using an A-frame, but
just requested he fit a tacho to meet the legal requirements
And the same goes for the thousands of other people using them. They 'think' its illegal, therefore they stop the people using them, then
have to let them go. OK, some may be issued (wrongly) with fines, but I have trawled through pages of legal documents and found no basis for them
being illegal.
But as said I would love to be proved wrong.
And sorry for the long post, but there is lots of detail points to get across. Just because someone says something is illegal it doesn't mean it
really is.
[Edited on 26/10/09 by balidey]
adithorp - 27/10/09 at 03:49 PM
I see what your saying, but isn't the real problem with a dolly/A frame that once the trailer is over 750kg gross, then it must be braked on all
wheels? I thought thats what made them illegal for general use.
I have a couple of customers cars come into work that they tow behind thier motorhomes on A-frames; They're OK because they have an overrun
brake piggy-backed onto the cars brake system.
I also thought the DoT took the AA to court (in a test case) due to thier use of folding dolly trailers. I understood that the ruling was that they
were only to be used for local recovery and the court defined that as within 60miles of the towing vehicles base. I've heard that several times
from AA patrols (last time was last Thu'
.
adrian
ps. I might have a towing dolly for sale soon.
Kriss - 27/10/09 at 05:06 PM
Hmm, i dont think I am any beter informed as far as where my decision is swaying.
Tow car will either be a 54 Vectra diesel or 2002 A4 diesel or 1.8T.
before we get into the legalities, would a BEC gearbox be OK subject to motorway use on a Dolly?
I just dont fancy paying in excess of £100 to rent a trailer for every track day.
Anyone use any cheapo companies in South East near Croydon, Surrey or Horsham in West Sussex
balidey - 28/10/09 at 08:25 AM
quote:
Originally posted by adithorp
I see what your saying, but isn't the real problem with a dolly/A frame that once the trailer is over 750kg gross, then it must be braked on all
wheels? I thought thats what made them illegal for general use.
But its not a trailer. If you were towing a trailer over that gross, then yes it needs brakes, but if towing a car, there is no legal definition (that
I can find) that says it is then classed as a trailer. It is classed as a towed vehicle. This is the point that is making it appear such a grey
area.
if there was a new law, or an amendment to the law clearly saying when they are legal and not legal then I will be happy, but for people to assume
what the law means is not right.
I'll try my own version of it..... When you overtake another car you are then on the oposite side of the road, therefore your lights are then
pointing the 'wrong way' so therefore you must fit headlightbeam adjusters. You have to, its the law, because if you are driving a left hand
drive car in this country you must fit beam deflectors, therefore its illegal for you to overtake unless you have them fitted.
That above paragraph is just a demonstration of what has been said about towed cars. That they magically become trailers requiering a seperate brake
system, but none of the other requirements a trailer needs. An overtaking car does not automatically make it LHD, but you could imply that it is. If
DfT issued a statement saying the above it would also not make it the law.
