Probably been talked about many times but can't find any info, is there a solution to non self entering of Indy steering, sure i read something about different top wishbones that alter the caster. Has anybody tried them and does it help/work?, who supplies them? how much? thanks

[Edited on 25/3/11 by Gordy]

I'm also interested in this as had a brief drive in mine (pre-IVA) and it would not self centre at all. Currently setup with with some toe-in and neg camber.

I know toe-out is suggested as a solution for IVA but interested in a longer term answer.

Rich

quote:

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Originally posted by rb968
I'm also interested in this as had a brief drive in mine (pre-IVA) and it would not self centre at all. Currently setup with with some toe-in and neg camber.

I know toe-out is suggested as a solution for IVA but interested in a longer term answer.

Rich

---

The best way to fix this is take it back to MK, and tell them to put it right.

This issue has been around for far too long, and it is surprising that MK still doesn't seem to have addressed it.

Is it too difficult to make the wishbones with the correct caster? After all these years?

Is it too difficult to make the top wishbone mounts adjustable for camber?

Cheers,
Nev.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Neville Jones
The best way to fix this is take it back to MK, and tell them to put it right.

This issue has been around for far too long, and it is surprising that MK still doesn't seem to have addressed it.

Is it too difficult to make the wishbones with the correct caster? After all these years?

Is it too difficult to make the top wishbone mounts adjustable for camber?

Cheers,
Nev.

---

Mine used to self centre really strongly and I didn't do anything special other than set the tracking straight ahead, give it a degree or two of -ve camber and set the tyre pressures right 16 - 18 psi . oh and made sure the mushrooms were positioned with the holes at the front.

What are you worried about ! You will still be driving of the track at Knockhill

quote:

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Originally posted by Toniq-r
What are you worried about ! You will still be driving of the track at Knockhill

---

First ... Make sure you steering rack is nice and free, you should beable to turn it be hand with wheels off the floor.

Second ... Make sure you geometry is correctly set up, not talking dangerous toe etc, just that they aren't all mis aligned.

Thirdly ... If still no self centring, throw your top wishbones away and fit some new ones with spherical bearings fitted so you can alter the geometry till you get self centring. More caster etc (although some will argue that it's not real caster etc) doesn't matter. Push the top wishbones back towards the rear of car as much as possible. Hey presto, self centring.

Eh what do mean I will be doing at least 46 mph with the super charger fitted!! anyway as long as I beat the bloody white nova and push off a few Scoobys of the track..

quote:

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Originally posted by Toniq-r
Eh what do mean I will be doing at least 46 mph with the super charger fitted!! anyway as long as I beat the bloody white nova and push off a few Scoobys of the track..

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ben_Copeland
First ... Make sure you steering rack is nice and free, you should beable to turn it be hand with wheels off the floor.

Second ... Make sure you geometry is correctly set up, not talking dangerous toe etc, just that they aren't all mis aligned.

Thirdly ... If still no self centring, throw your top wishbones away and fit some new ones with spherical bearings fitted so you can alter the geometry till you get self centring. More caster etc (although some will argue that it's not real caster etc) doesn't matter. Push the top wishbones back towards the rear of car as much as possible. Hey presto, self centring.

---

There was a chap on eBay making them, I bought mine from him.

Think mk used to make them too.

Or modify your own

Thanks Ben, i'll check them out.

I might know someone who can make them. I'll ask him

My locost wouldn't really self centre.

I bought some revised top wishbones with improved castor - rosejoined and all adjustable from woszher.

It self centres perfectly now with no dodgy bodges.

I really wouldn't fancy driving a car without it - its a safety feature.

quote:

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Originally posted by mookaloid
Mine used to self centre really strongly and I didn't do anything special other than set the tracking straight ahead, give it a degree or two of -ve camber and set the tyre pressures right 16 - 18 psi . oh and made sure the mushrooms were positioned with the holes at the front.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Neville Jones

Not your problem. Sale of Goods Act. Unfit for purpose.
Nev.

---

I see that the MK appreciation society has stepped in again, why oh why you cant be constructive rather than destructive amazes me, have you stepped in for someone else what motivates you . My Mk centres ok, and hasnt even had the tracking set by anything other than a tape measure a spirit level and a laser light.

I habent seen an Mk Fail the SVA or IVA based on this centering other than when the setup had been an age out as everyone has managed to get their car to self centre with little trouble. Therefore the wishbones are fit for purpose so sale of goods act doesn't really come into it so your talk about LAW again is in reality a load of tosh.

It appears that your sole intention is to turn every MK thread into a negative one, if you cant help out and give appropriate and helpful advice then why bother posting.

quote:

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Originally posted by austin man
I see that the MK appreciation society has stepped in again, why oh why you cant be constructive rather than destructive amazes me, have you stepped in for someone else what motivates you . My Mk centres ok, and hasnt even had the tracking set by anything other than a tape measure a spirit level and a laser light.

I habent seen an Mk Fail the SVA or IVA based on this centering other than when the setup had been an age out as everyone has managed to get their car to self centre with little trouble. Therefore the wishbones are fit for purpose so sale of goods act doesn't really come into it so your talk about LAW again is in reality a load of tosh.

It appears that your sole intention is to turn every MK thread into a negative one, if you cant help out and give appropriate and helpful advice then why bother posting.

---

Have you checked the top mushroom setting this can have an effect as stated I dont have a problem on my Indy at all its using standard wishbones etc. The top mushroom is ofset so if set up wrong can effect the steering.

Im with you on all the negative crap someone just has an axe to grind out there and need to remember this forum sets out to help not hinder.

Maybe, just a thought
my car is good in the steering department and i have a car [ pinto ] engine so more weight over the front
compared to your little light weight bike engine
so could this make a difference ?
Jacko

didnt spot that it was bike engined, I believe Hellfire fitted softer springs to the front due to the engine weight, Im running a zetec in mine

Can someone clarify the mushroom position for me. I bought mine part built so have to admit I have only once had the mushrooms out when I had them drilled to lock in place. I assume they are offset to push the top link back or lean back to increase castor? Is it obvious which way they go, someone mentioned ensuring the hole is to the front?

Would like to have a look at mine this weekend so any guidance much appreciated.

I also think I have my tyre pressure too high at 23psi.

Cheers

Rich

Yes holes at front appears to tilt the hub bacward into castor, though it has been argued that this is not real castor.
for bike engine 23 is probably a little high, depends on tyres.
15" proxes I like 18ps

Having now done a search it appears thats a hot topic. Will have a look tomorrow but I suspect mine are not offset.

I have never seen a photo of the wozsher?? adjustable wishbones but assume that by using rose joint they allow the top wishbone to be moved rearwards within the existing mounts? Is an alternative to move the top wishbne mounts rearwards and adjust the wishbines to suit?

Oh and 15" wheels with Yoko Parada tyres (but pre-IVA so only driven briefly so far !)

Rich

[Edited on 25/3/11 by rb968]

You could modify your existing top wishbones for adjustable camber as shown in the picture below.

Phil

[img][/img]

Another point no-one has mentioned is ....have the wishbones been fitted the right way round...if you look at hellfires picture you will see the legs are longer at the front (probably not the right description, but I work nights and I'm tired)
as regards the comment about putting springs in the rack. the springs only compress on the last 1/2 a turn of full lock, mine was never tested on full lock for sva it was just driven round the yard to test self centering, the only times in normal driving I've ever had to use nearly full lock was Ramsey Hairpin and Governers Dip in the IOM.
tony

From my experience it isn't that much to do with castor. I modified my top wishbones like Phil has done and have 6.5 degrees castor. As standard it was 4.5 degrees.

It doesn't make that much difference to self centreing, though it does make some difference. However it does give a lot more steering feel.


Stu

quote:

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Originally posted by snoopy

quote:

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Originally posted by Neville Jones

Not your problem. Sale of Goods Act. Unfit for purpose.
Nev.

---

not a prayer self built car which you built yourself so only self to blame if you built it wrong as your all amatures not profesionals

---

wozsher on here used to make replacement top bones for the indy

He has disappeared off of the planet about 18months ago - Just as I was away to order a set.

I don't care what anybody at MK says there is a problem with self centering on an INDY with a ZETEC or a PINTO engine.

A few folk claim it's good but even when my tyres were 40+ psi the force was minimal. and yes it is set as per the MK instructions......

[Edited on 26/303/11 by mad4x4]

Anyone got any draings showing how far the top mount has to move - Then at least someone could then make a jig.

Hell I may even it's not rocket science if we have the measurements. Could someone knock up a CAD Model

[Edited on 26/303/11 by mad4x4]

How does the Indy R compare to the Indy? They have different wishbones.

I think the brackets need to be moved back about 12-15mm but if you look at the picture of phils it's not that easy as 15mm would cause the front bracket to fall off the front frame suppose if you used 50 x 25 mm edge on you could move the front one, to move the very awkward rear upright support would cause problems for the bottom wishbone mount, difficult to explain but if you look at the pic you should be able to see what I mean.
I believe the suspension on the R was redesigned to get rid of the problem and also the so called prob of rear camber going positive ? on full bump

tony

[Edited on 26/3/11 by mad-butcher]

[Edited on 26/3/11 by mad-butcher]

I don't think the Indy bones are designed wrong - they have 4.5-5 degrees of castor as standard. Mine now has 6.5 degrees and self centreing is improved but still not strong compared to a tintop.

Stu

quote:

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Originally posted by Neville Jones

quote:

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Originally posted by snoopy

quote:

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Originally posted by Neville Jones

Not your problem. Sale of Goods Act. Unfit for purpose.
Nev.

---

not a prayer self built car which you built yourself so only self to blame if you built it wrong as your all amatures not profesionals

---

That's a fairly feeble excuse to keep making unsuitable components, and flogging them to the trusting and unsuspecting public.

If you provided the wishbones, and the chassis with the wishbone mounts already welded on, it's YOUR problem.

I'm in a position to buy a kit at the moment, so look out, I just may be your next customer, really, the 'customer from hell', waiting to take over your business through the courts. I've got more than enough people who'll front for me!

FIX THE SOURCE OF THE PROBLEM!!!

Your next, and final, post on this, should be to say,

'We have now taken the two hours necessary to remake the wishbone jig, and this problem should not be seen again.'

Cheers,
Nev.

[Edited on 26/3/11 by Neville Jones]

---

quote:

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I'm in a position to buy a kit at the moment, so look out, I just may be your next customer, really, the 'customer from hell', waiting to take over your business through the courts.
[Edited on 26/3/11 by Neville Jones]

---

sounds like someone needs a good s*ag.

I'm with Neville on this one. My Indy (Zetec) didn't self-center at all with the advised settings. Tried the dodgy ways to improve it (strange toe/camber/tire pressure settings, spring on rack) but that didn't work well enough (and for sure didn't help the handling). In the end I had the top wishbones modified to increase the caster. That worked. And was the only proper way to solve the issue. It's still not self-centering brilliantly, but it is definately much better than before, and feels safer. And it didn't need any dodgy fixes to pass SVA.

And as stated before; the position of the hole in the mushroom adapter don't influence caster; caster is defined as the relative positions of the upper and lower balljoints; they are not moving when you turn the mushroom. This is a very VERY common misconception.

For me, as an MK owner, it is disappointing that MK haven't tackled this minor modification. The MK is great value-for-money, but some minor changes (like this caster issue or the rear suspension geometry) would really improve the product, without adding cost.

quote:

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Originally posted by Mave
I'm with Neville on this one. My Indy (Zetec) didn't self-center at all with the advised settings. Tried the dodgy ways to improve it (strange toe/camber/tire pressure settings, spring on rack) but that didn't work well enough (and for sure didn't help the handling). In the end I had the top wishbones modified to increase the caster. That worked. And was the only proper way to solve the issue. It's still not self-centering brilliantly, but it is definately much better than before, and feels safer. And it didn't need any dodgy fixes to pass SVA.

And as stated before; the position of the hole in the mushroom adapter don't influence caster; caster is defined as the relative positions of the upper and lower balljoints; they are not moving when you turn the mushroom. This is a very VERY common misconception.

For me, as an MK owner, it is disappointing that MK haven't tackled this minor modification. The MK is great value-for-money, but some minor changes (like this caster issue or the rear suspension geometry) would really improve the product, without adding cost.

---

The Indy R is fully adjustable and anyone Buying an Indy has the option to purchase different wishbones Fully rose jointed but for so many it is an additional cost. As I mentioned mine centres okay so I dont have a problem so it would appear that some of us are doing something that others arent.

I Think Neville likes to have a poke at MK any time something is posted which starts to take the thread away from what was first intended ie a slagging off session rather than a productive "this is what I did ". If he has a problem with them then this should surely be taken up with them personally. I cannot see what he seeks to get out of it unless he has a business gain to be made.

Let the forum get back to what its good at Helping not Hindering

quote:

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Originally posted by mad4x4
You say you had the arms modified - what was the distance you moved the top joint back by?

---

What about getting them commercially made and doing a group buy.


25 People needing 2 is 50 ARMS that would maybe interest a company

100 people needing 2 is 200 Arms ....


We all seem to have this problem!

quote:

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Originally posted by David Jenkins

quote:

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Originally posted by mad4x4
You say you had the arms modified - what was the distance you moved the top joint back by?

---

Most people end up with the centre of the top joint 22 - 25mm behind the lower one. On my book locost this meant that the top joint ended up 15mm further back from its original design (x-flow engined car).

And it does make a huge difference...

---

quote:

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Originally posted by mad4x4
What about getting them commercially made and doing a group buy.


25 People needing 2 is 50 ARMS that would maybe interest a company

100 people needing 2 is 200 Arms ....


We all seem to have this problem!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mad4x4

quote:

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Originally posted by David Jenkins

quote:

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Originally posted by mad4x4
You say you had the arms modified - what was the distance you moved the top joint back by?

---

Most people end up with the centre of the top joint 22 - 25mm behind the lower one. On my book locost this meant that the top joint ended up 15mm further back from its original design (x-flow engined car).

And it does make a huge difference...

---

For the cortina HUB of 169mm high ( i don't have the measurement of the serria one) that works out as a caster of 8.4Deg if you base it on 25mm back and 7.4 deg if it is 22mm back

[Edited on 26/303/11 by mad4x4]

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could it be that the top wishbones are fitted to the wrong sides ? aren't they handed but will still fit albeit incorrectly

quote:

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Originally posted by mad4x4
For the cortina HUB of 169mm high ( i don't have the measurement of the sierra one) that works out as a caster of 8.4Deg if you base it on 25mm back and 7.4 deg if it is 22mm back

---

Hi

The same old debate yet again. Lol

Most do not understand what exactly castor does to create self centering. It's all to do with camber change when the front wheels are being turned whilst cornering. So if you really want to understand why the MK's lack the feel that kits such as Westfields and Caterhams etc etc have you need to go looking at the very basic geometry.

1. sit the car level with the drivers weight sat in the car. Measure the front camber.
2. now turn the front wheels and take catsor readings.
3. now whilst the wheels are turned simulate the car being turned into a corner with weight transfer. ( put a passenger in the car to simulate a bit of chassis roll) and take new camber readings. Yep the camber goes in a direction that negates the geometry that the castor should influence
4. put the car up in the air with the rear chassis on axle stands. Leave the front chassis free to pivot on the jack in the center under the rad. Now grab a front wheel and pull the bottom out and the top in by hand as if checking for wheel bearing play. Whilst doing this measure the chassis flex between the rear bulkhead and the front chassis.

Now sit down and have a think about how all that pans out whilst cornering at speed with say 0.5G rather than just pulling and pushing the wheel by hand. That will explain in basic terms as to why there is no real responce from the front end of the car. And also show that the very basic problem with a lack of self centering is only scratching the surface of the problems.

Cheers Matt

[Edited on 26/3/11 by procomp]

quote:

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Originally posted by austin man
The Indy R is fully adjustable and anyone Buying an Indy has the option to purchase different wishbones Fully rose jointed but for so many it is an additional cost. As I mentioned mine centres okay so I dont have a problem so it would appear that some of us are doing something that others arent.

I Think Neville likes to have a poke at MK any time something is posted which starts to take the thread away from what was first intended ie a slagging off session rather than a productive "this is what I did ". If he has a problem with them then this should surely be taken up with them personally. I cannot see what he seeks to get out of it unless he has a business gain to be made.

Let the forum get back to what its good at Helping not Hindering

---

Right then - If so many have people have this problem & there are so many opinions lets get the facts, Get a drawing and mock up a set and try it......


1) Has any one taken a stock MK Arm and swapped them over - Seem to be a lot of talk about wrong side - This will solve this one

2) Same thing has any one tried them Wrong way up ?

3) Has any one modified there stock MK arms to move the top point back - Results ?

4) Any one got a set of Wozhers arms - Results


My basic idea forming at the moment is - if the Wozher Arms solve the problem - Let try and get them copied.

We have guys on here that can engineer a whole chassis surley we can re-engineer a top arm!


I'm stuck with the stock stuff from MK and tried Springs and changing mushrooms etc. I gave up and drive it with out self centreing but it is a PITA, I'm also to far north to "take it to MK"

[Edited on 27/303/11 by mad4x4]

ive not bothered to read 6 pages of things, but just adjust the mushrooms or get the rosejointed wishbones... self centering isnt that important, mine never has too strongly, but drives perfectly

All of you people looking to make new jigs and such, to fix your MK's, I feel for you.

BUT, THIS IS A FACTORY PROBLEM.

This problem has been around since the first day MK copied the Ron Champion book chassis, in their own unique and peculiar way. Many years ago.

With the attitude shown to customers, MK will not survive much longer. Simple fact of business.

FIX YOUR PROBLEMS AT SOURCE!

Don't expect the public/mugs who buy your products to fix what you know is wrong, and do nothing to rectify.

If this was an issue with a manufacturer, be it motor or washing machine, there would have been a recall and rectifications carried out.

As for buying an MK kit, I'd get my money back in court, and then one of the MK Glee Club will buy it for silly money, just because it's an MK.

Actually buying the kit? I wouldn't have any problem, and indeed, wouldn't even have to be there in person. And I'd bet that MK would be all too keen to take my money quick smart, regardless of who I am.

I just may be your very next customer, maybe the second, tenth.....But I'm out there. Look out if you sell me the same thing that has caused the problems.

A judge would take one look at this forum, and laugh MK's excuses out the door. Historic known problems not rectified by the manufacturer aren't looked on too kindly.

First job tomorrow at MK should be to make new wishbone and chassis mounting jigs,would take less than half a day, and this issue wouldn't be there. Particularly when I buy my next kit.

It would also show that you actually do care about your products, and the public who buy them, instead of the contempt and disinterest which you are currently appearing to show.

Cheers,
Nev.


[Edited on 27/3/11 by Neville Jones]

Neville, seriously an MK is not going to be for you. I have had many other problems and so have loads of other customers and nothing gets done by MK. If you are talking court action before you have even bought one then you will have a very long struggle and an unhappy experience building this kit.

quote:

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Originally posted by Davegtst
Neville, seriously an MK is not going to be for you. I have had many other problems and so have loads of other customers and nothing gets done by MK. If you are talking court action before you have even bought one then you will have a very long struggle and an unhappy experience building this kit.

---

Hang on Neville, after all this you spout about court cases, the parts are fit for service. I did nothing special with mine and I get adequate self centreing, as do the majority of others. There are fleets of MKs on the road, all having passed SVA, so the product must be fit for service.

Ergo, the parts are fit and you have no complaint under the sale of goods act based on the wishbones. Just because the parts could be modified to give better self centreing and an overall better product, that's your decision when you buy the kit. If you want to take them to small claims, all you'll do is waste your £30.

I'm not sure quite what planet you exist on, but you come across as an ill informed mardy kid. We all know the Indy spaceframe could be stiffer since it's missing any engine bay bracing for a start, that the square to round panel joint could have been eradicated yonks ago and that the front legs of the cage do not meet MSA regulation, but if you don't like any of these things, simply find a product you agree with, take your money elsewhere and STFU.

Do you beat on to all your friends like a broken record about how tesco own brand beans are rubbish because the sauce isn't as nice as heinz?

quote:

---

Originally posted by indykid
Hang on Neville, after all this you spout about court cases, the parts are fit for service. I did nothing special with mine and I get adequate self centreing, as do the majority of others. There are fleets of MKs on the road, all having passed SVA, so the product must be fit for service.

Ergo, the parts are fit and you have no complaint under the sale of goods act based on the wishbones. Just because the parts could be modified to give better self centreing and an overall better product, that's your decision when you buy the kit. If you want to take them to small claims, all you'll do is waste your £30.

I'm not sure quite what planet you exist on, but you come across as an ill informed mardy kid. We all know the Indy spaceframe could be stiffer since it's missing any engine bay bracing for a start, that the square to round panel joint could have been eradicated yonks ago and that the front legs of the cage do not meet MSA regulation, but if you don't like any of these things, simply find a product you agree with, take your money elsewhere and STFU.

Do you beat on to all your friends like a broken record about how tesco own brand beans are rubbish because the sauce isn't as nice as heinz?

---

It sounds to me like you need to fill your boots and release your own car. You could revolutionise the industry

I think it's what Matt's trying to do, but some may disagree with how he displays his product differentiation

for a car that is built not using Jigs then Ive got to say they are all pretty accurate. Had a look into your archive and dont see much going on for such a seasoned proffesional. Sometimes you dont need beans especcially if your full of wind, dont suppose you have a friend on this forum that your stepping in for.

Oh and by the way they do use jigs

It is agreed that the geometry could be better however you can buy the adjustable wishbones if you feel that strongly. Cant wait to see you perfectly formed car when its completed I not that its a Locost but will be of epic proportions surely wen finishe with the handling characterisitcs of a formula one car. Or are they a little flimsy and poorly designed.

Move on mate and get building your car and start to enjoy

[Edited on 27/3/11 by austin man]

quote:

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Originally posted by A1 self centering isn't that important, mine never has too strongly, but drives perfectly

---

As you're aware, the MK is/was designed around a Sierra single donor vehicle and whilst the Sierra uprights are suitable components, they are not ideal and do have their limitations.

There are a few things you can do to improve the self centre characteristics. One of the things we looked at first was the steering rack. We removed it, took it apart, cleaned it, re-greased and rebuilt it in accordance with the Haynes manual to ensure it was operating smoothly and efficiently. We checked the steering rack for bump steer and shimmed the rack slightly to remove it. We had the dampers balanced by Protech and ensured that the wishbones moved freely and weren't binding within their range of operation. Finally, we re-manufactured the top wishbones to incorporate adjustability for castor.

To date, we have tried various settings and ultimately decided that 6 degrees was about as good as it gets with Sierra uprights fitted. Beyond that, although self centreing improves, other traits begin to appear and the wheels would just flop from side to side which felt horrible.

One sure-fire way to improve your self centreing would be to fit a car engine. All that extra weight would help. We've just accepted that with a front engined BEC using Sierra uprights, the self centreing is never gonna be that great.

Is our self centreing better than it was?............... Yes
Is it much better?.................................................. No
Was the result worth the effort?........................... Probably not but we now understand the limitations of the Sierra upright slightly better.

Phil

i'm not expecting saloon car centering, just looking for an improvement on what iam getting at the moment which is nowt, thanks for the 'summary' Hellfire

[Edited on 27/3/11 by Gordy]