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Another Cooling Post - Any ideas?
rm0rgan - 17/8/15 at 07:50 PM

Hi - after some hints and tips as to what to check/change and tweak...

I bought my MK Indy just over a week ago - my maiden drive home finished on the back of an RAC truck as the top hose came off the GBS Water Rail ([url=http://www.kitspares.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=_28&product_id=741&car=]) fitted to it's Blacktop Zetec engine running Weber 40's and a Megajolt ECU. I've read quite a few posts where people are having problems with this water rail/cooling (and the Racetec Water Rail) set up and think I'm another one who is joining that club...

I spoke to GBS and described how my system was plumbed in - I had the water rail/top hose as you might expect them to be fitted and the bottom hose as normal however the small overflow pipe from the thermostat housing was plumbed into the top of the Polo Radiator fitted up front - they said this wasn't correct and that I should block the small overflow(?) connection at the top left of the Rad and feed the pipe from the thermostat housing to an overflow tank (like this one LINK[url=http://www.kitspares.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=_28&product_id=318&car=]. In the meantime however they suggested I try it with a coke bottle with the theory being excess coolant is collected into the bottle and then when the system cools, it siphons it back into the system again. I've tried it, and it doesn't syphon back - if just fills the bottle and sits there. I've gone around and tweaked all the connectors and pipes to ensure there are no leaks and cannot see anything obvious - in fact the following morning there was still pressure in the system so don't think it's losing elsewhere (or not much as I haven't ruled out anything internal yet). So, problem 1 is I am loosing coolant when driving and have now simply put a container in place to collect it instead of it making a mess everywhere from the pressure cap (i've replaced this by the way with a new one as I wasnt sure it was something simple like a faulty cap).

Problem 2 is the car, when the system is full of coolant stays around 85/90 degrees on the gauge when cruising along steadily but as soon as you give it some beans it will start to get hot and vent coolant - as the coolant gets less, the engine gets hotter (on the gauge) and accelerates the cycle of events until eventually you have to stop as the temp gauge heads towards 110 degrees+ (I'm suspicious the gauge can read correctly as from what I can see, the sender must be out of the water level as it gets hotter and is poorly placed for what it needs to do).

So what else should I check - I don't think I have HGF as the oil is clear, no mayo in the cap or dipstick and no steam from the exhaust (although I know you can still have HGF without these signs showing).

I'm getting fairly hacked off with not being able to drive the car any distance and always having to keep watching the temp gauge (which I know you kind of do with these cars but it's becoming paranoia!).

Would I better off just scrapping the Water Rail setup and going back to a standard Zetec set up - it might not look as neat but it's probably more reliable, however before I do that, what else can I double check?

Any thoughts, tips, advice appreciated - no ideas are silly ideas! :-)

[Edited on 17/8/15 by rm0rgan]

Matth93 - 17/8/15 at 08:00 PM

Have you got the water pump belt setup to turn it the right way? I believe there is 2 different pumps that are made to spin in different directions. This would obviously effect the flow around the engine

rm0rgan - 17/8/15 at 08:13 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Matth93
Have you got the water pump belt setup to turn it the right way? I believe there is 2 different pumps that are made to spin in different directions. This would obviously effect the flow around the engine


Yes - I changed the water pump this week as it was leaking post blowing all its water out on the way home after picking the car up. It is set up correctly and the pump is the right one for a Blacktop (i.e serpentine set up)

[Edited on 17/8/15 by rm0rgan]

Matth93 - 17/8/15 at 08:29 PM

I think I'd be looking into headgasket next then. You can get some dye to put in the water which will tell you if there's exhaust fumes getting into the water before you start to strip it down

rm0rgan - 17/8/15 at 08:36 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Matth93
I think I'd be looking into headgasket next then. You can get some dye to put in the water which will tell you if there's exhaust fumes getting into the water before you start to strip it down


I'm hoping it's not HGF, but wouldnt surprise me.

dilley - 17/8/15 at 09:11 PM

Hgf can be difficult to diagnose, are you sure you have no air locks? Check thermostat?

rm0rgan - 17/8/15 at 09:19 PM

quote:
Originally posted by dilley
Hgf can be difficult to diagnose, are you sure you have no air locks? Check thermostat?


The current set up with the GBS water rail makes me think there are no air locks. They rad cap is at the highest point but that said, I'm not sure how I can bleed the system effectively. Any tips appreciated.

dilley - 17/8/15 at 09:22 PM

Have you checked the thermostat?

dilley - 17/8/15 at 09:30 PM

They either lose it or use it. That's the rule. I would pull the thermostat and go from there.

rm0rgan - 17/8/15 at 09:42 PM

quote:
Originally posted by dilley
They either lose it or use it. That's the rule. I would pull the thermostat and go from there.


I'll give the thermostat a tug tomorrow and see if it runs cooler. I'm thinking its working though as I've watched the water level change when it opens, but that said, it could be faulty and not opening fully I guess. Thanks for the tips

britishtrident - 18/8/15 at 06:47 AM

The GBS water rail looks like it will work OK (much better functional than the Raceline) provided you have coolant connection from below the thermostat going back to an inlet on the water pump. A decent flow of coolant should always be able to flow from the coolant outlet head back to the water pump even when the thermostat is closed and the heater set to cold. In addition getting a Dremell out a drilling a couple of 2.5 mm holes in the thermostat.

Your expansion tank really isn't going to work the way it is plumbed, you could do as GBS suggested but it would really be better to stick it on ebay, buy a blank radiator cap for the filler point on on the water rail and fit buy a new Renault Clio/Kango pressurised tank off ebay for about £10 including cap. Rover 25, GM Corsa and other tanks can be used but the Renault ones are the cheapest easy to mount and compact.

The cooling system on a Zetec engine normally runs over 90c and the fan would normally cut in on the first speed about 97c but as on the donor the system should be pressurised so the boiling point of the coolant is increased to just under 120c.


[Edited on 18/8/15 by britishtrident]

rm0rgan - 18/8/15 at 07:17 AM

quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
The GBS water rail looks like it will work OK (much better functional than the Raceline) provided you have coolant connection from below the thermostat going back to an inlet on the water pump. A decent flow of coolant should always be able to flow from the coolant outlet head back to the water pump even when the thermostat is closed and the heater set to cold. In addition getting a Dremell out a drilling a couple of 2.5 mm holes in the thermostat.

Your expansion tank really isn't going to work the way it is plumbed, you could do as GBS suggested but it would really be better to stick it on ebay, buy a blank radiator cap for the filler point on on the water rail and fit buy a new Renault Clio/Kango pressurised tank off ebay for about £10 including cap. Rover 25, GM Corsa and other tanks can be used but the Renault ones are the cheapest easy to mount and compact.

The cooling system on a Zetec engine normally runs over 90c and the fan would normally cut in on the first speed about 97c but as on the donor the system should be pressurised so the boiling point of the coolant is increased to just under 120c.


[Edited on 18/8/15 by britishtrident]


Now this makes sense to me, as an expansion tank was something I was considering fitting before speaking to GBS as the original Zetec system is pressurised with an expansion tank. I've seen a few diagrams of how people have set up their systems but wonder of you have anything I can reference and connect up the same as?

Thanks very much.

Norfolkluegojnr - 18/8/15 at 07:40 AM

Not my diagram, but saved on frmo some other kind soul on here. This is how both of my Zetec kits have been plumbed, and how i'll do the next one:



Hope it helps. Both ran lovely this way, and never over heated.

rm0rgan - 18/8/15 at 08:12 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Norfolkluegojnr
Not my diagram, but saved on frmo some other kind soul on here. This is how both of my Zetec kits have been plumbed, and how i'll do the next one:



Hope it helps. Both ran lovely this way, and never over heated.


Thanks for this - I've looked at this one but not quite sure how I should connect up my pipes to the GBS water rail - I understand the top pipe, that's easy, however I only have one other small outlet that is open when the radiator pressure cap hits 20psi - it's this pipe that is currently doing a splendid job of emptying my cooling system and has no way back. I'm wondering if the red pipe at the top of your diagram needs to be connected back into bottom hose as it is shown there and not to as I currently have it, to an overflow tank. So it would look something like this?


[img][/img]

Or maybe it should look like this with an expansion tank (and the current Radiator Cap not being a pressure cap type but just blank? I think in my mind this allows the system to pressure up more effectively - would this work better?

Note, no bypass so would need to drill a couple of holes in the thermostat to let it warm up better



[Edited on 18/8/15 by rm0rgan]

[Edited on 18/8/15 by rm0rgan]

[Edited on 18/8/15 by rm0rgan]

Norfolkluegojnr - 18/8/15 at 09:45 AM

From my limited understanding, the reason you run the old heater matrix hose into the bottom pipe is to give some circulation of water until the engine has warmed up enough for the thermostat to open.

I never used a water rail, so cant comment on your set up exactly, but your first diagram would give no expansion as far as I can see.

From what I can see on the pictures on GBS's website, arent there two 'tails' on the part that comes up from the old stat housing? presumably for the heater matrix should you need it?

If so I'd plumb in to my diagram and see how it goes.

EDIT: just to add, I had a closed rad, and the only cap was on the expansion tank:

rm0rgan - 18/8/15 at 10:15 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Norfolkluegojnr
From my limited understanding, the reason you run the old heater matrix hose into the bottom pipe is to give some circulation of water until the engine has warmed up enough for the thermostat to open.

I never used a water rail, so cant comment on your set up exactly, but your first diagram would give no expansion as far as I can see.

From what I can see on the pictures on GBS's website, arent there two 'tails' on the part that comes up from the old stat housing? presumably for the heater matrix should you need it?

If so I'd plumb in to my diagram and see how it goes.

EDIT: just to add, I had a closed rad, and the only cap was on the expansion tank:



I agree that the first diagram cannot effectively provide any expansion really - that said when I picked up the car the red pipe at the top of the drawing was plumbed into the top of the Polo rad and apparently worked fine (but I'm not so sure it could have worked like that either based on my experience!)

There are indeed three outlets on the GBS unit although one of them is blanked off as when mounted it faces directly towards the engine block and you wouldn't be able to connect a pipe to it - possibly I could turn it around so it was facing out backwards but this would then mean routing the pipework back round to the water rail which doesn't seem right - the smaller outlet is the expansion or overflow pipe which I think should go to an expansion tank and then the other feed from an Expansion tank being piped to the bottom hose (and if there is another outlet to the top of the radiator as there is a small pipe on it that could be connected into the tank to presumable remove any air from the top of the Rad?).

Appreciate people thoughts - you're all very helpful :-)