Poorscousertommy
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| posted on 20/10/10 at 08:28 AM |
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Newbie alert, spec advice please!!
Hi all, been reading for a good while (think i must have covered 80% of the mk threads at least!) and im stll none the wiser as to the age old BEC vs
CEC debate... My current thoughts on the matter...
I'm probably going to run my car 60/40 road vs track, so initally looking CEC.. However, couple of q's for those of you with exp..
1.. Thinking of running S2000, or zetec/duratec, budget of £2500.. Can this be done, as ford engine is gonna need a few toys to get to 225hp.any
advice wecome!!
2. If i run the above,am i gonna find myself embarrassed on a track by the BEC boys, and
3. Is REC the answer (anyone done this in an indy?), is that in budget, and will i have major reliability issues??
Sorry for the long post, researched all to death and figured i would take the plunge an open pandoras box!!
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Daddylonglegs
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| posted on 20/10/10 at 08:38 AM |
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Welcome to the forum, and prepare yourself for more BEC vs CEC than you can shake a stick at!  
BTW, was going to ask your location but the username might be a bit of a giveaway
[Edited on 20/10/10 by Daddylonglegs]
It looks like the Midget is winning at the moment......
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stevegough
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| posted on 20/10/10 at 08:49 AM |
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Greetings, and welcome to the forum! (though it sounds like you've been a 'passive' member for a while?)
I am sorry, but I am not qualified to answer your question directly - I am on my first build, two years in - and close to the big test - IVA.
I am building a CEC - using a 2.0 vauxhall redtop 16v totally standard ignition and induction (vauxhall spent years and quite a few quid sorting this
engine, so I decided putting bike carbs on etc would be a bad idea as I'm no mechanic). This kicks out 150bhp and cost me just £300 from
ebay.
As to going the BEC route - don't forget the car has to reverse for IVA and the engines don't like weight - however, they are good
screaming fun.
You are going the right way, thinking about the build and what you want to do with it etc before you start.
Keep watching this space, there will be lots of help and advice from more knowledgeable locosters along soon.
Duratec - get in touch with Dave (flak monkey) for some info. Also try reading some on the Burtonpower website.
Good luck with whatever you decide and remember we will be expecting photos all the way....!!!
Luego Locost C20XE.
Build start: October 6th 2008.
IVA passed Jan 28th 2011.
First drive Feb 10th 2011.
First show: Stoneleigh 1st/2nd May 2011.
'Used up' first engine may 3rd 2011!
Back on the road with 2nd engine may 24th
First PASA mad drive 26/7/11
Sold to Mike in Methyr Tydvil 19/03/14
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dhutch
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| posted on 20/10/10 at 08:54 AM |
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Have you been out in any cars? Get down to some trackdays/ownermeets and get some people to take you for a spin.
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Poorscousertommy
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| posted on 20/10/10 at 10:27 AM |
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Thak you gentlemen for the warm welcome!! Not looking to build til Jan, so a long wait for photos, but want to get pricing and sourcing of parts well
underway! Am thinking of getting across to MK on sat to have a good nose around and chat, do peeps still pop down there now that the weather has taken
a turn for the worse??
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hughpinder
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| posted on 20/10/10 at 12:46 PM |
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The usual response to this is to ask what you mean by 'track'. If its a race series rather than track days you need to check the allowed
engines e.g 750mc series is ford 1300 xflow iirc as the only engine. Some series are anythig to 2.0l etc, so decide this first, then your choice may
be ready made.
Personally I think the mahosive powerful engines are too much in a seven on the road, especially if you haven't driven such a car before.
I'd go for a 2.0 duratec - decent power with no tuning, up to 200/240bhp before changing the internals (according to SBD) and more if you want
it. Engine/gearbox/ancilleries come in about 160-170 kg I believe, which is about 80 kg more than a bike engine and box.
Regards
Hugh
[Edited on 20/10/10 by hughpinder]
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RK
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| posted on 20/10/10 at 12:50 PM |
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MK was originally designed for a BEC from what I understand. However, they do an MX5 version too. I have one very very similar, but with a Nissan
CA18DETurbo engine - estimated HP = 200.
An MX5 based build would be cheapest, as you can do everything from the same modern donor, and sell the bits you don't want off the MX5. You
might come out under budget!!
BEC is significantly more money once you add reverse. This is just from my own research, not personal experience.
Go with what is the most common: Zetec, Duratec, MX5, Vauxhall etc. This will significantly reduce your stress. I know this for fact...
[Edited on 20/10/10 by RK]
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jossey
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| posted on 20/10/10 at 02:36 PM |
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BEC :O)
ohhh its not started yet.
let me know when it starts :O)
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adithorp
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| posted on 20/10/10 at 02:49 PM |
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60/40 split road/track is pretty high with regard to track use to be honest for a road registered car.
S2000 won't be embarassed by a BEC, at least not under excelleration. Braking and cornering will be a different matter with the extra wieght.
You can read all there's ever been writen in the BEC/CEC debate and it's all irrelevant untill you have a ride. You'll either love
it or hate it. I know where my money is
"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire
http://jpsc.org.uk/forum/
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JimSpencer
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| posted on 20/10/10 at 03:16 PM |
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Hi
They're all quite simply engines.
It's all about Power / Weight & Gearing.
Enough of the former, as little of the middle and getting the latter spot on.
Then if you get all three of those right you're a third of the way there.
Now
Bolt some good tyres on it.
Make it handle properly.
.. and drive it right.
That's the other 2/3rds of the performance sorted 
Personaly: -
Once I was happy that the car was going to be suited to (eligible for?) the track use I had in mind. I would then go for the build route that was easy
to do, and easy to get bits for when you have to do it again one day 
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mcerd1
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| posted on 20/10/10 at 03:31 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by jossey
BEC :O)
ohhh its not started yet.
let me know when it starts :O)
CEC....
or better yet get a pinto like mine
but seriously: (because I don't think I can convince you to get a pinto  )quote:
Originally posted by adithorp
60/40 split road/track is pretty high with regard to track use to be honest for a road registered car......
You can read all there's ever been writen in the BEC/CEC debate and it's all irrelevant untill you have a ride. You'll either love
it or hate it. I know where my money is
that sounds about right to me - have a ride in one of each and make your own mind up, its really
the only way to be sure your getting what you want
the s2000 has been done a few times, but they arn't the simplest of engines.... so as stevegough said above if you want that much power ask flak
monkey about his supercharged Duratec "273.3bhp and 226.2lbft at the wheels" 
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=143937
[Edited on 20/10/2010 by mcerd1]
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PAUL FISHER
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| posted on 20/10/10 at 04:24 PM |
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I am sure if your going down for a visit at MK on Saturday morning, they will give you a run out in both, then just decide which bike engine you want
to fit
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snapper
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| posted on 20/10/10 at 06:30 PM |
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quote:
It's all about Power / Weight & Gearing
I would add the race engine builders adage
BHP sells engine, Torque wins races.
Therefore for the same BHP output an engine with more torque will win, I also suggest that a torque curve that peaks early with a long flat delivery
high up the rev range will be more drivable and quicker out of the corners than a high revving peaky engine.
Please note that at no time have I mentioned CEC or BEC
I eat to survive
I drink to forget
I breath to pi55 my ex wife off (and now my ex partner)
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adithorp
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| posted on 20/10/10 at 07:12 PM |
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"...Therefore for the same BHP output an engine with more torque will win...." except where the car ends up 20%, or more, heavier because
it's got an anchor under the bonnet!
See what you've started, newbie!
adrian
"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire
http://jpsc.org.uk/forum/
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austin man
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| posted on 20/10/10 at 07:23 PM |
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For 60% road use thats a hell of a lot of engine screaming oh and then theres the old fuel debate CEC 30mpg BEC 21 MPG
Bike engined cars do have that initial faster acceleration but can be caught up.
personaly I prefer CEC they can sit a 7o with 3000 rpm and you can talk to the passenger. The also have a decent turn of pace. A duratec would give
you what your looking for and be a lot stronger unit than a Bike engine. Dont see many CEC owners posting Killed it after track day
Life is like a bowl of fruit, funny how all the weird looking ones are left alone
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Poorscousertommy
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| posted on 20/10/10 at 07:48 PM |
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OK, so none the wiser, although glad I've asked, as some serious food for thought...
Thanks again for the productive thread folks, looks like a trip to MK at the weekend is a must!
Assuming I budget £2 - £2.5k for the drivetrain, (gonna need a gearbox after all... unless I'm tempted to the dark side ), what can I expect -
dont want anything too beat up.. figured the F20c would have been the more straightforward install as already designed for RWD and has a direct mating
box but hey - thats why I'm here!!
Anybody i can talk to ref sourcing a half decent engine within the price brackets I'm talking about? I've figured Malc from Yorkshire
engines is the man to talk to about BEC, anyone similar for CEC? Being new to this lark, I want to keep whatever engine I go for as stock as possible
(at least til I get thru SVA in erm.. 'Insert ambitious timeframe here, double it and add a bit', or to buy Crate engine where someone
has already done the initial necessary work (throttle bodies or any other quick wins) to take a lot of grief out of the build...
And Adrian, you're bang on the money, the more I thik about it the more its going to be 80/20 road to track - the track will only be track days
to learn how to drive the thing properly, and then only on payday haha!! Seriously, one of the key drivers for the build and ambitions is to put the
bad boy together and then take it for a thrash round 'the ring', along with a trip to LeMans at some point so its gotta be driveable!
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adithorp
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| posted on 20/10/10 at 08:31 PM |
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I managed a 3000+ mile trip to the Med' via the Alps this year then 2 weeks later did LeMan Classic (500 each way). Don't write of the
touring ability of a BEC. All you need is ear plugs ( and you'd want them anyway for the wind noise). Then get on an Alpine pass and use those 4
figure revs
Get a ride and you'll see the light on the dark side.
adrian
"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire
http://jpsc.org.uk/forum/
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mcerd1
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| posted on 20/10/10 at 09:00 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Poorscousertommy
Assuming I budget £2 - £2.5k for the drivetrain, (gonna need a gearbox after all... unless I'm tempted to the dark side ), what can I expect -
dont want anything too beat up.. figured the F20c would have been the more straightforward install as already designed for RWD and has a direct mating
box but hey - thats why I'm here!!
the main problem with the F20c is the electronics, the standard ECU can be tricked into working (I beleve it normally wants all kinds of pointless
information thats nothing to do with the the engine from sensors all over the car - just so you can turn it on)
most people seem to get aftermarket ECU's to get round this
if you like that sort of thing then its not that big a problem - if your like me you'll run a mile and get something with carbs
also the gearbox is a bit bigger than the likes of a type 9, the engine is quite tall (I know some people have had to dry sump them which isn't
cheap) and I think the standard rear axle ratio is some thing like 4.1:1 (lower geared than std 7" diffs come in)
having said that alot of the BEC guys want the 3.38 and 3.14 diffs from the 2.3 diesels which can be like rocking horse poo these days
[Edited on 20/10/2010 by mcerd1]
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Hellfire
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| posted on 21/10/10 at 12:02 PM |
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On a budget of 2K to 2.5K, you'd get better performance straight out of the box, as standard, with a bike engine. Not all BEC's are
thirsty and noisy either Just depends how heavy you are with your right foot and how loud you want it to be. Our old Blade engine returned
30+ mpg and pace wasn't too far off the ZX12R, unless on track.
There also seems to be a common misconception that bike engines lack torque but what the majority fail to consider, is that bike engines have a torque
multiplier in the form of a primary reduction gear. Therefore BEC torque isn't as low as it appears.
For a fair weather car/toy - BEC all the way.......
Phil
[Edited on 21-10-10 by Hellfire]
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franky
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| posted on 21/10/10 at 08:41 PM |
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Am I allowed to mention a bmw engine they all run with standard ECU's, everything from revvy 4 pots that make 140bhp standard up to an e46
m3 engine with 340ish bhp ITB's as standard and 8000+rpm, oh for under 2k too.
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noc231073
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| posted on 21/10/10 at 09:21 PM |
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the s2000 has it own problems.... i once fitted one to a rally car .... a rather big engine and very high ....to fit to an mk you would have dry sump
it and to be honest for what your talking about spending you just wont do it for 2,500..
just a quick break down of some of the cost ....
a good engine on it own will cost you between 2000- 2500
a dry sump kit will cost you between 1000-1500
then figure out how your going to run it ..ie: trottle bodies ...or run the standard injection....... its never ending ...
you would have to spend close to 5k to get the performance out of it
just my 2 cent worth...
Btw I am building a hayabusa indy ...
I have raced minis for years and going to a bike engine car means for the price i paid for my last mini engine rebuild i could have 2 2009 hayabusa
engines sitting in my garage and thats money was spent to get just 140 bhp ...and it could go bang at any minute ....
the bike engine to me just seems more bang for buck.....
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Poorscousertommy
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| posted on 21/10/10 at 10:16 PM |
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Aaaargh!! Decisions decisions!! Again, great advice gents, looks like only a ride is going to help me make my mind up! Phil, great build diary, but
was frustratrd to find the final month of the build. The link takes you back to tge start so you never do see the finished product.. Did you do that
on purpose??
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Hellfire
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| posted on 22/10/10 at 11:13 AM |
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The last month of the build diary used to be there.
I'll get the webmaster to look into it. The build diary does however (sort of) continue in the rebuild diary.
Phil
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theduck
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| posted on 1/1/11 at 06:32 PM |
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Bumping an old thread, the link for the last month of the hellfire page is still wrong, but it is still hosted...
Can be found here http://www.mkhellfire.co.uk/200404.htm
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