flak monkey
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| posted on 3/1/06 at 11:57 AM |
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Religious Fundamentalism and Creationism
Before I get started I want to make it clear that I am not having a dig at religion (I am after all a Christian) or at the Americans...
I have just started reading a rather interesting book and whilst reading it I picked up a fact that rather shocked me.
44% of the American population believes in the creationism theory. I.e. that humans appeared (were created as is by God) on earth 10,000 years ago, in
our current form. Totally rejecting evolution theory. (Amongst teenagers the figure was 38%)
Only 10% (1 in 10) actually believe in Darwins theory of evolution! With the rest believing a combination of the ideas.
This comes as rather a shock to me to be quite honest, and shows just how religiously fundamentalist Americans as a nation are. Now I am not saying
that we dont have the same people in the UK or anywhere else in the world, just thos percentages seem awfully high especially with the almost
irrefutable scientific evidence for evolution.
David
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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bigandy
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| posted on 3/1/06 at 12:49 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
almost irrefutable scientific evidence for evolution.
David
Didn't the great scientific minds once beleive (and state as fact) that the earth was indeed flat?
Cheers
Andy
Dammit! Too many decisions....
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smart51
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| posted on 3/1/06 at 01:00 PM |
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Americans (And I'm not being racist here) often see things as very right or very wrong with little room inbetween. Creationists tend to believe
that there is absolutley no evolution and evolutionists believe that there is absolutley no creation.
Darwin observed that young of plants and animals take after thier parents and that survival pressures lead to changes in the population thatcan give
rise to the evolution of different sub-spicies. For example if a population of animal is subject to food shortages at ground level then only the tall
survive long enough to breed. They have tall young who have tall young leading to a tall race of animals. If on another island, the same type of
animal is hunted by a preditor who can only see animals who can't hide in the grass then only the short ones live long enough to breed giving a
short population. Darwin extrapolated this to give his theory of evolution. This hasn't been proven, contrary to popular beilef becaus to do
so would take a geological time scale.
There is a Judaeo-Christian train of thought that if evolution exists, it does so because God made it that way. Americans don't like this idea
because it doesn't fit into their binary model of extremes even though there is nothing in either philosophy that says is cannot be true.
The Bibe is an ancient eastern book, not a modern western one. Ancient writers thought that a cronological, literal way of writing was very childish.
Their writing often speaks through simily or alogory. A 12 step process will be conveyed using months of the year or a 4 step story using the
seasons. It is more likely than not that the 7 day creation story represents the 7 step process of the creation rather than it taking literally 168
hours. This too doesn't fit into the American mould.
A more enlightened view of creation would be that God created the universe in the six (actually) steps as described in the bible leading ultimatly to
the creation of stars, planets, plant, bird, sea and animal life with mankind at the top of creation. How that was done is not described by the
Bible. It could well have been a big bang followed by evolution. Interestingly, the latest scientific account of the creation of the universe and
human life follows the same steps as the Bible in the same order. There is nothing in either theory that contradicts the other.
The bible says why it was done and science says how. Neather account gives us a full account and that is why there is so much question over the whole
subject.
[Edited on 3-1-2006 by smart51]
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The Shootist
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| posted on 3/1/06 at 06:18 PM |
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Frankly I doubt the book...
Those figures are way too high for the folks that I know.
Of course the numbers are most likely skewed to give the result that the writer wishes to convey.
I work in Quality Control and use statistics all the time. We have a saying..."If you torture the data long enough, it will confess."
[Edited on 1/3/06 by The Shootist]
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JoelP
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| posted on 3/1/06 at 06:52 PM |
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an interesting addition to smarts excellent post, is that there is proof that evolution can occur. You can take bacteria on a petri dish, pick a
strain that cannot live off a particular type of sugar, then add mutagens and gradually drop the amounts of their preferred sugar and increase the one
they cant use, and eventually you can wean them onto the new one. Subsequent genetic analysis reveals that another enzyme has been constructively
mutated and selected for, allowing a new strain to come about. Sequencing the relevant gene, you can then develop 3d models of the protein in question
and see exactly what has changed and how it made a difference - the latter part nowt to do with evolution, but very interesting nevertheless 
What strikes me as an example of UK and US differences is that in America, schools cannot teach any religion at all, whereas in the UK schools have to
engage in worship weekly apparently.
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Peteff
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| posted on 3/1/06 at 08:54 PM |
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"If you torture the data long enough, it will confess."
Or as we say, "Bah, you can prove anything with facts". Joel, I have some cheese in the fridge which is proving the evolution theory as we
sit here now. It's growing a coat to combat the cold in there, which I think is absolute proof .
yours, Pete
I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.
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derf
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| posted on 3/1/06 at 09:40 PM |
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Yeh those figures are way too high, i work in a church and most here dont believe in pure creationism.
Personally, creationism and evolution are the same thing. My thoughts, darwin is right, evolution created the world we live in today, with god as the
designing factor over the long haul.
Read a book a while back that has some decent "proof" of the 10 plauges in egypt, and shows how it would have been possible, and points
out modern times and dates where one or a few of the 10 plauges have come at the same time. Anyway 10 plauges in order:
The rainy season in somalia caused the nile river to run red b(1) with red soil (looks like blood), causing all the frogs out of the river (2),
letting the fly population explode (3), animals would have been traveling north along the nile looking for fresh water (4), causing disease,
specifically anthrax, killed animals (5), and put boils on people (6). Hail actually can happen in egypt at any time (7), which would cause the locust
massive locust colony movements to the east(8), And it would also bring clouds to a generally sunny area (9). then the jews under direction from god
went out and killed the 1st born of every household not marked (10)
To people who have little undersanding of science this would have looked like a set of miracles that took place over a year or more of time.
Even the part of moses splitting the red sea happened recently. a dry season many years ago dropped the level of the nile in a few places where it was
only a few feet deep alowing people to cross on foot, Napoleon used this when he went to egypt, why couldnt the isrealaties on their way out of egypt.
Now I know it seems like quite a stretch that all these things happened in a row at the same time, or even in a few years time period. the writers of
the modern bible have probaly changed it around so much that it only resembles the original stories.
Anyway to make my point what if God set up the world like a domino set so that you touch 1 and the rest is just a chain reaction knocking them all
down. Everything could have been put into play millions of years ago just for that 1 moment to happen.
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JoelP
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| posted on 3/1/06 at 10:28 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by derf
Anyway to make my point what if God set up the world like a domino set so that you touch 1 and the rest is just a chain reaction knocking them all
down. Everything could have been put into play millions of years ago just for that 1 moment to happen.
i can live with that, if i whack a white ball down a piece of felt covered slate with a stick, i take full credit for all the balls that fall off that
table.
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steve_gus
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| posted on 3/1/06 at 11:01 PM |
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when I was at school (left 30 fooking years ago!) we had a religious assembly EVERY MORNING wether you wer balck, white christian, jewish or Jedi.
(ok, not Jedi as star wars wasnt out for 2 years then)
The bacterial mutation is sadly what chicken flu will use to get at us .........
atb
steve
PS to Derf's post - if the jews went around killing all the first borns as god told them to, isnt this
A. Psychopathic
B. Against 'thou shalt not kill'
C. The jews using violence against arabs
D. A bit difficult - did they say 'hey' are you the eldest son' before they cakked them?
or E
another hard to substantiate bit of fiction from what is the old testament.
quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
an interesting addition to smarts excellent post, is that there is proof that evolution can occur. You can take bacteria on a petri dish, pick a
strain that cannot live off a particular type of sugar, then add mutagens and gradually drop the amounts of their preferred sugar and increase the one
they cant use, and eventually you can wean them onto the new one. Subsequent genetic analysis reveals that another enzyme has been constructively
mutated and selected for, allowing a new strain to come about. Sequencing the relevant gene, you can then develop 3d models of the protein in question
and see exactly what has changed and how it made a difference - the latter part nowt to do with evolution, but very interesting nevertheless
What strikes me as an example of UK and US differences is that in America, schools cannot teach any religion at all, whereas in the UK schools have to
engage in worship weekly apparently.
[Edited on 3/1/06 by steve_gus]
http://www.locostbuilder.co.uk
Just knock off the 's'!
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JoelP
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| posted on 3/1/06 at 11:03 PM |
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i suppose virus' are an even better example, but its not as easy to see in a lab
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carcentric
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| posted on 4/1/06 at 05:42 AM |
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Three questions
I'm sure glad this topic came up - I've had three questions about evolution for the longest time and no one's had any quality
responses. Perhaps one (or more) of you can answer them.
1) The theory of evolution seems to apply only to "living organisms." I believe I heard somewhere that the first living organisms emerged
from certain nonliving molecules and a set of temperature, light, etc., conditions. How was the first organism more "fit" (as in survival
of the fittest) than the chemicals it came from? And how was "being alive" more fit than just being (a molecule)?
2) More relevant to this forum (!), how was the first two-sex organism more fit than its single-sex (self-impregnating) parent organism? And what
good would it have been to be the first two-sex organism if it would be scores of generations before a "mate" of the opposite sex evolved
through another random event? Talk about a long dry spell . . . .
3) What caused the big bang that created the universe, solar systems, planets, etc.? Evolution would suggest that the big bang was more fit than . .
. what, the little bang?
M.
M D "Doc" Nugent
http://www.carcentric.com
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steve_gus
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| posted on 4/1/06 at 06:55 PM |
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to be more fundamental....
what created god?
atb
steve
http://www.locostbuilder.co.uk
Just knock off the 's'!
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smart51
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| posted on 4/1/06 at 07:37 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by steve_gus
what created god?
The Torah, to Jews Christians and Muslims at least, is the only real source on the subject. It says that God has always existed and will always
exist. The rational is that God existed before the creation of time (or space time if you prefer) and will continue to exist after time has ceased to
be. If God exists for longer than the whole duration of time, how do you measure his age?
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steve_gus
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| posted on 4/1/06 at 07:59 PM |
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thats just a cop-out tho isnt it? the sort of answer you would give to a kid cos you dont know the answer.
the chicken exists cos the egg always has and always will do.
looks a bit of a crap answer if put in those terms.
I read a while back (bbc web site) that perhaps the answer is that mankind doesnt actually have the mental capacity and understanding to actually know
how and why creation came about. It would perhaps be a bit arrogant to feel we could know everything?
atb
steve
[Edited on 4/1/06 by steve_gus]
http://www.locostbuilder.co.uk
Just knock off the 's'!
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jon_boy
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| posted on 4/1/06 at 08:08 PM |
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Isnt it wierd how they only worshipped and made godly things they didnt understand ie With the greeks the gods of rain etc. Its just a way of
rationalising things they didnt understand to make them less scary and easy to deal with. And some people wrote a book. Then they got a following by
making people believe the book. Then they got power from the following. The church (for all gods) is now a very powerful institution, so much so that
wars are fought for it, or at least in the name of it. Crazy huh. Yet if i said i saw a miracle everyone would kick my ass and call me crazy. Not all
of the above are striclty my views, but there are some dubious things from the bible, ie all the contradictions that need explaining away until
"but he is almighty" is the only answer
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I love speed :-P
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| posted on 4/1/06 at 08:16 PM |
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The one thing i never understood was the fact about her being a virgin and having a baby, if your daughter came home and said she was going to have a
baby and she siad she hadnt has sex and it was the sun of god would you believe her?
Don't Steal
The Government doesn’t like the competition
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flak monkey
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| posted on 4/1/06 at 08:33 PM |
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Just thought I would point out the book in question is 'The Story of God' by Robert Winston. Some of you may have seen the TV series on
BBC recently.
Some of the responses have been rather interesting I must admit, and I am not going to go into what I think the answers are to each one as religion is
a personal thing at the end of the day, its up to you to decide the what you feel the answers are to your questions. The only requirement of any
religion is to believe in your God(s), where you take it after that is pretty much up to you. Even if you never take the step to actually having any
faith, and just stick at the belief thats fine. Likewise if you choose to not even believe then thats fine too. Isnt free will a wonderful thing? The
only people I personally take issue with are religious fundamentalists, who are an extrememly scarey group of individuals!
If you want a really scarey religion look into Islam, now thats a very worrying faith as a Christian... That statement is not a racist one, just an
observation!
David
Sera
http://www.motosera.com
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JoelP
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| posted on 4/1/06 at 09:11 PM |
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I'll take a shot at a few of these
quote:
Originally posted by carcentric
I'm sure glad this topic came up - I've had three questions about evolution for the longest time and no one's had any quality
responses. Perhaps one (or more) of you can answer them.
1) The theory of evolution seems to apply only to "living organisms." I believe I heard somewhere that the first living organisms emerged
from certain nonliving molecules and a set of temperature, light, etc., conditions. How was the first organism more "fit" (as in survival
of the fittest) than the chemicals it came from? And how was "being alive" more fit than just being (a molecule)?
Its less a matter of fit, and more a matter or 'likely to reproduce'. Sounds bizzare, but some molecules can string together other
molecules. This is one area thats far from explained, but there are prions (lifeforms made of protein alone, with no DNA) that can reproduce alone.
Not sure of the mechanism so i wont argue too hard for it
quote:
2) More relevant to this forum (!), how was the first two-sex organism more fit than its single-sex (self-impregnating) parent organism? And what
good would it have been to be the first two-sex organism if it would be scores of generations before a "mate" of the opposite sex evolved
through another random event? Talk about a long dry spell . . . .
Sexual organisms have the advantage of being able to rearrange their genetic material more each generation, allowing more chance of a canny offspring
coming along. Sex is less about sex organs and more about genetic markers. In humans, there is an x chromosome and a y chromosome, these code the
differences between man and woman. Apparently the x chromosome is shrinking, and as it becomes less powerful over thousands of years, selection
pressure will force the migration of key genes onto difference chromosomes and another marker will arise.
quote:
3) What caused the big bang that created the universe, solar systems, planets, etc.? Evolution would suggest that the big bang was more fit than . .
. what, the little bang?
M.
thats obvious, stupid! God created the big bang There can be no creation without a creator.
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steve_gus
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| posted on 4/1/06 at 11:00 PM |
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when my wife did a sociology course many years back, they put forward an interesting view on why religion had a place in society as a means of
control.
I dont think anyone can deny that virtually every religion seeks to control those that follow it.
The theory goes that 100s of years ago, (as is still the case now!) there was a crap life for some, and a great life for the rich. But, if you were
good, meek, and went on with your lot, one day you would get your rewards in heaven.
The alternative view is that all there is, is now. So take what you can and dont put up with any crap cos this life is all you have. Thats the fodder
of revolution.
A view is that there is indeed nothing after this life. People dont much like the idea that death is the end of things, so they look for other
explanations. One being that there is an afterlife. Some religions you stay in it, others (like buddism) you keep coming back for more and are
continually reborn. To my point of view, thats a bit of a waste of time. I am what i am cos of my personality, and have my family, house , job, car -
my general lot. It doesnt much matter to me what I was before, or what I might be in the future. Cos I wont remember what I am now, so therefore to
all purposes, i would be dead. So, Im not a buddist!
Religion also gives people hope that their loved ones are not lost forever, and that those that die a terrible death do have something else to come.
That those starving in africa do in fact have a nice sunny place in the afterlife amd not just a painful wasting death, and that girls raped and
murdered by bastards in Thailand havnt come to an abrupt end with nothing but darkness to come.
One of the most depressing and thoughtful lyrics ive ever heard in a song is by Chris Rea. Its called 'tell me theres a heaven'. I think
its very thought provoking and a strong reason why people WANT there to be a god, and an afterlife.
Id like it to be the case, have an open mind.......
The little girl she said to me
"What are these things that I can see
Each night when I come home from school
When mama calls me in for tea?"
Oh every night a baby dies
And every night a mama cries
What makes those men do what they do
To make that person black and blue
Grandpa says they're happy now
They sit with God in paradise
With angel's wings and still somehow
It makes me feel
Like Ice
Tell me there's heaven
Tell me that it's true
Tell me there's a reason
Why I'm seeing what I do
Tell me there's heaven
Where all those people go
Tell me that they're happy now
Papa tell me that it's so
So do I tell here that it's true
That there's place for me and you
Where hungry children smile and say
"We wouldn't have no other way"
That every painful crack of bones is a step along the way
Every wrong done is a game plan
To that great and joyful day
And I'm looking at the father and the son
And I'm looking at the mother and the daughter
And I'm watching them in tears of pain
And I'm watching them suffer
Don't tell that little girl
Tell me
Tell me there's heaven
Tell me that it's true
Tell me there's a reason
Why I'm seeing what I do
Tell me there's heaven
Where all those people go
Tell me that they're happy now
Papa tell me that it's so
atb
steve
http://www.locostbuilder.co.uk
Just knock off the 's'!
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Bigfoot
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| posted on 5/1/06 at 11:01 AM |
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Religion is the most common mental illness in the world.
I sometimes wish I was afflicted with the condition, it must be a very comforting to believe such things, however ridiculous.
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Jasper
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| posted on 5/1/06 at 12:01 PM |
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I watched the programme with Winston - fascinating stuff. I loved the part where he was with the Christian Fundamentalist in the radio station and the
other guy would not even entertain any views that were not expressly stated in the bible. Winson (a Christian for those of you who didn't know)
then asked him if he was circumsized as this is stated as a 'must' in the old testament too and the guy AND the radio DJ just ignored him
completely and talked over him.
Interestingly enough the one thing that Winston said which stuck with me went along the lines of 'the difference between you and me (the
fundamentalist creationist) is that I will enterain ALL ideas regarding our history and past and look at them all with objectivity and yet you will
not under and circumstances. That for me in a great example of the definition of fundamentalism.
Do get me wrong, I'm not anti religion, just anti any form of fundamentalism. My grandmother-in-law is a Christian Scientist and you cannot
discuss anything with her that she disagrees with. All elements and ideas from her religion are treated as absolute FACT and are not up for any sort
of discussion. All things that happen in her life are 'fitted in' to her ideas of how things are.
My personal feelig is that religion has done far more harm than good during the last few thousand years and is still the basis of most of the problem
in the word today. I have no time for it whatsoever - it all just seems, as somebody else has already stated - as a means of those in power having
control over the rest of the population.
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JoelP
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| posted on 5/1/06 at 06:27 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Jasper
My personal feelig is that religion has done far more harm than good during the last few thousand years and is still the basis of most of the problem
in the word today. I have no time for it whatsoever - it all just seems, as somebody else has already stated - as a means of those in power having
control over the rest of the population.
this may well be true, as many wars have been fought in the names of many religions, however you will find that most faiths teach peace. The wars are
usually fought by the misguided, even if sometimes the misguided includes the heads of religion.
Many religious people are bad people, and many unbelievers are good at heart, so if there is a god, judgement day is going to be a headache! Its
funny that you could follow the teachings of a religion just because they are right, and never believe in god, or you could go to church daily and
pray hourly, and still sin every minute.
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quattromike
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| posted on 5/1/06 at 07:23 PM |
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AMEN
Mike
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steve_gus
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| posted on 5/1/06 at 07:45 PM |
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As God requires faith of believers, he doesnt give proof or otherwise of his existance. It is up to us to have that faith and believe.
So......
Anything stated in any religious book, or any belief, cannot come directly from God. It must therefore have come from man.
So, Moses goes up this mountain, no witnesses, then comes back down with a whole bunch of rules. Surely he didnt make them up himself......
I also feel it extremely arrogant of the catholic church that they can A. actually thinkg they can elects someone who is in touch with God and is his
earthly representative and B. Have the power to excommunicate people from God. How exactly did God ceed that power if he cant give prrof positive that
he exists?
atb
steve
http://www.locostbuilder.co.uk
Just knock off the 's'!
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JoelP
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| posted on 5/1/06 at 08:07 PM |
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i have many problems with the catholic church, both for your reasons and the praying to mary bit.
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