ettore bugatti
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| posted on 26/10/06 at 10:17 PM |
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Dick Bear's McBearen/Mclaren imitation
Found on the interweb.
Take a look here:
http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4020
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akumabito
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| posted on 26/10/06 at 10:37 PM |
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Wow, looks quite impressive!
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akumabito
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| posted on 26/10/06 at 10:48 PM |
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Actually, after reading some more and looking at those pictures, I think I have to say this is one of the most impressive scratch-builds I've
ever seen! absolutely amazing!
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TheGecko
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| posted on 26/10/06 at 11:06 PM |
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It is indeed very pretty metalwork. But don't look too closely at the rear suspension if you have a weak stomach! I think he's going to
make some unfortunate discoveries the first time he tries it at any speed 
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kb58
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| posted on 27/10/06 at 01:25 AM |
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I'm guessing that's this picture...
Mid-engine Locost - http://www.midlana.com
And the book - http://www.lulu.com/shop/kurt-bilinski/midlana/paperback/product-21330662.html
Kimini - a tube-frame, carbon shell, Honda Prelude VTEC mid-engine Mini: http://www.kimini.com
And its book -
http://www.lulu.com/shop/kurt-bilinski/kimini-how-to-design-and-build-a-mid-engine-sports-car-from-scratch/paperback/product-4858803.html
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Doug68
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| posted on 27/10/06 at 05:09 AM |
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Whats more important Fabrication quality or quality Engineering?
They’ve obviously got excellent fabrication skills, but looking at the picture,
I can’t tell where if anywhere the roll-centre location will be for this layout.
I expect when loaded in a corner it’ll jack up until it runs out of travel.
Not a nice situation.
Would anyone agree?
I once new a guy who built a dune buggy, the VW front end was converted to coil over
shocks and the quality of fabrication was truly excellent, however as the suspension
compressed it was so falling rate it couldn’t lift itself off of the ground again.
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Fred W B
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| posted on 27/10/06 at 05:55 AM |
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I have been following that build, and he certianly did a lot of work in a very short time. Some discussion i've seen on other forums are
picking up on the difference between a car focussed guy building a practical fast car, and someone who is more into just creating something that looks
good.
Sorta the difference between race bikes/cars and choppers / street rods.
To me, the wheels are all wrong for that style of car.
Cheers
Fred W B
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TheGecko
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| posted on 27/10/06 at 06:57 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Doug68
I can’t tell where if anywhere the roll-centre location will be for this layout.
The virtual swing-axle pivot point will be waaaay out through the upper right of that picture. Extending from there through the centre of the contact
patch puts the static roll centre at least a couple of feet underground! It's going to be "interesting"
I have to agree completely with Fred's comment. Hot Rod shows give me the sh*ts because I see all of this expensive fabrication with incredible
attention to aesthetic detail and yet no apparent knowledge of basic engineering theory.
When he crashes it, can I have the wheels  
Dominic
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dl_peabody
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| posted on 27/10/06 at 07:40 AM |
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I would like to see more projects completed by him because his metal working skills are truely NICE.
I know he has on his list of "to do's" is to fix the suspension. My hope is that he gets the chance to fix it.
[Rest of the message deleted]
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Doug68
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| posted on 27/10/06 at 07:58 AM |
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I’m originally from the UK living in Australia now, but I spent 5 years in the middle living in the USA.
I nearly got myself in trouble a few times with custom car and bike owners, some of their ‘creations’ are literally laugh out loud funny (especially
the trucks), which they didn’t appreciate at times.
One guy I’m sure was going to get out of his truck and have words with me (pointing and laughing hysterically).
But I don’t think he could quickly find the ladder he needed to get down out of the thing.
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gttman
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| posted on 28/10/06 at 08:00 AM |
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Definatelly an impressive build and I'll be folllowing it in future.
The thing that strikes me on the rear suspension is that the lower wishbone is effectivelly split with one side of it twice as long as the other... as
the shorter is at the front isn't this going to induce a lot of toe change under bump and rebound?
Andygtt
Please redefine your limits
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Dick Bear
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| posted on 28/10/06 at 10:01 AM |
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Dick Bear's McBearen
Hello LocostBuilders.co.uk
I’m Dick Bear the designer and builder of the McLaren M8B inspired build posted on MetalMeet.com.
You can view the unabridged McBearen thread at:
http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3618
I’ve enjoyed reading and seeing the recent comments in addition to the equally unique builds being accomplished by several subscribers to
LocostBuilders.co.uk.
Unfortunately, there seems to be some concern for the rear suspension of the McBearen to which I can only say that I’m confident that once you read
the full account of my build your concerns will be alleviated.
As a quick note, I would point out that I’m aware of, and I am planning to correct the mistakes made in both design and fabrication of the suspension.
While I understand the excitement an error on my part produces when viewed by knowledgeable individuals, I hope knowing that the necessary changes
are planned for will allow you to refocus your attention on the build as a whole.
During my brief tour through the LocostBuilder site I noticed many more drawings of cars than I did actual cars being built. This is, I suppose,
typical since I can testify from experience that it is much easier to draw a car than it is to build one. Those of you who have progressed beyond the
pen and ink stage to the point of building a car from scratch will, I’m sure, agree that both during the build process and for an extended period
after the it is ‘completed’ adjustments are required and performed based upon discoveries made.
Thank you for your interest in the McBearen. As I correct the suspension issue I hope that I can draw upon the collective knowledge in evidence
here.
Cheers,
Dick Bear
[Edited on 28/10/06 by Dick Bear]
[Edited on 28/10/06 by Dick Bear]
www.marketpointproductions.com
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spunky
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| posted on 28/10/06 at 11:40 AM |
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Hi Mr Bear,
I'll be the first to welcome you to locostbuilders.
I may be completely wrong, but I believe I detected a hint of irritation in your post.
You are clearly a very talented engineer, let me assure you, as I'm sure others will, that any critical discussion of your build will not be ill
intended. It will be and should be viewed as constructive discussion, from which we can all learn.
There will be people setting out that are not aware of the implications or 'roll centres' and 'suspension geometry' and it is
projects like yours and the discussions around it that provide the inspiration and motivation to get past the drawing stage.
I hope you will join us and keep us up to speed on your progress.
Its quite a friendly forum and if there is a greater pool of knowledge regarding car constuction and all that that entails on the web then i'm
yet to find it.
Regards, and welcome aboard.
John
The reckless man may not live as long......
But the cautious man does not live at all.....
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Peteff
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| posted on 28/10/06 at 12:35 PM |
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I will freely admit I don't know anything about roll centres and ackerman angles etc. and I've built my book locost without having to draw
anything except the suspension jigs, Ron drew it all for me. If the suspension goes up and down and the wheels don't fall off it's a
success as far as I'm concerned. The drawings of wheel position and the massive arcs and camber changes are all so greatly exaggerated they are
laughable, you will probably only have an inch of travel in either direction. I think you're doing alright and putting it out there for everyone
to see giving them a chance to comment doesn't mean they are any more right than you. As you say, it will always be in development so you can
change stuff as you learn, make your own mistakes and decide for yourself and keep up the good work Dick
[Edited on 28/10/06 by Peteff]
yours, Pete
I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.
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TheGecko
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| posted on 28/10/06 at 12:54 PM |
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Dick,
I wrote a harsher reply than this and then decided not to send it. However, as one of the "drawing" builders you're probably
referring to above (see more below on that matter), I feel I need to say something.
Firstly, let me reiterate that I am deeply impressed with the quality of the metalwork you're doing on your car. I would never undertake a
metal shaping project of that magnitude. However, metalwork and engineering are not the same thing and a car needs both sets of skills. I'm
not a great metalworker (or engineer really) so I try to draw on others experience and knowledge wherever possible.
The vibe on the MetalMeet forum is very different to here and, say, LocostUSA. On MetalMeet people building cars from scratch are in the minority,
I'd say. Here, they're the whole community. Thusly we have a different perspective. On MM, it seems that your work has had almost
universal praise. Here the response is more along the lines "Yeah it's nice, but....". I get the feeling that's not sitting
well with you.
Please do not take the criticism your work is getting here and elsewhere personally (as difficult as I know that is). I believe that I and others who
have commented are genuinely concerned about the safety of your rear suspension. I'm sure that many here would willing to assist you as you
allude to in your last paragraph. However, I'm not sure whether you're really interested in hearing their suggestions. If you're
genuinely interested I'd be happy to list the issues I see with your suspension and some suggestions for rectification (and they needn't
represent a lot of work for someone with your fabrication skills).
So can we all move forward in a constructive manner from this point?
Dominic
P.S. I am making very slow progress on my build and may have some photos to post of actual chassis progress in the few weeks. However, I have a job
that demands more and more time at present and car building is for me, and I suspect a lot of other people here, very much a hobby and not a
profession.
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gttman
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| posted on 28/10/06 at 02:53 PM |
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Dominic
With all due respect some of the comments have been a little sharp in their criticsm and likened to pointing and Laughing. that would not lie well
with me either, I guess.
Mr bear
I personelly am very impressed with your project, I am scratch building a mid engine GT car myself so know the work and commitment involved.... but I
have also found that if you place your effort in open forums they will get closelly scrutenised and judged, even in areas were the car isn't
finished.
Now I am aware of your site I intend to follow your progress and maybe gain some ideas and inspiration for my own project....
Andygtt
Please redefine your limits
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Doug68
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| posted on 28/10/06 at 03:27 PM |
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Being new here myself, I can already see that there are 2 types of person here those that put a lot of planning into the process, which invariably
means a lot of CAD / CAE work these days.
And those who prefer to get stuck in building the thing directly or at least a lot sooner.
I think either way can work, but I really don’t like surprises, not when I’m building the thing and least of all not when I’m putting a vehicle into a
corner at speed. So I’m well and truly in the first camp.
In my opinion if you want to design and build your own car, (which we must remember is a job involving 100’s of people when done professionally).
If you don’t have a basic understanding of what Roll Centres, Scrub Radii, caster, camber, bump steer, roll steer etc are and why you want each of
them to be a particular way then you need to learn.
A year ago I had but the vaguest notion of what these all were so I sat about learning the subject, so in the end when my car gets completed it won’t
be perfect but it won’t be fatally flawed. Recommended reading on the subject:
Chassis Engineering by Herb Adams, very readable and a good deal of practical information.
Race & Rally Car Source Book by Allen Staniforth. This one is a real classic in the field.
Car Suspension at Work by Jeffrey Daniels. More advanced but a highly worth while read.
I’m sure that there’s many other good books on the subject too.
BTW that’s a picture of me on the right, 1” of travel can feel like 1’ when it’s not controlled properly. If an inch is enough for the suspension to
work right then it’s also enough to stuff it up completely.
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sgraber
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| posted on 28/10/06 at 05:58 PM |
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Dick, AS you mention on the other forum, it looks to me like that suspension will be very easy to fix. Compared to the rest of the McBearen build it
is a trivial task. but don't drive it hard until is is fixed. One wrong bump at speed in a corner and you could stuff the whole project! That
would be a real shame.
As someone who has been building a car for some time now, I for one stand in awe of your metal working talents.
I think most people here have started from the handling side and work outwards to the skin. I mean, they're building 7s for god-sake! The
pinnacle of form following function.
Steve Graber
http://www.grabercars.com/
"Quickness through lightness"
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Dick Bear
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| posted on 28/10/06 at 11:58 PM |
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Onward and .....
Hey guys,
This is great and I'm really not offended by any comments made. But after working the build night and day for the last year, and knowing that the
rear end was out-of-wack, and knowing that changes were (are) planned for, and having stated that fact and my plans to correct it I probably was a bit
defensive when I first entered locostbuilders.com.
Believe me when I say I'm a novice when it comes to most aspects of the geometry involved with suspension. Most of what I've accomplished
so far has been accomplished by the seat of my pants aided thankfully during the process by individuals like yourselves making constructive critism
and suggestions. Honestly, I don't have a death wish and I want the McBearen to be all it can be in every respect of its existance. I hope, if
nothing else, my placing the build on MM with total transparency of my short comings represents an attitude of personal acceptance for discovering
what I need to learn in order to fulfill my dream. There are, I've recently discovered, hundreds of individuals who have forgotten more than
I'll ever know about suspension, front and rear. Many of these people are presumable on this site and I wish only to share what I have done with
those interested while at the same time advance my knowledge and understanding through exploring their experiences. It's as simple and as
complicated as that but that is all it is from my perspective.
No need for anyone of us to 'bow-up' over anything 'cause if we're not here to share and learn, the locostbuilders experience will
be over quicker than the time it took us to register ourselves on the site.
At the moment, I am focused entirely on getting the McBearen's body panels prepared for painting. Once that is completed and the McLaren orange
finish is applied the correcting of the rear suspension will be paramount!
If in the meantime I can answer any question you may have regarding the build, I'd be flattered to respond as best I can.
Dick Bear
 
Rescued attachment McB Wave.jpg
www.marketpointproductions.com
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Doug68
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| posted on 29/10/06 at 01:40 AM |
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Spectacular fab work on the body!
Truely superb, almost a shame to paint it.
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akrallysport
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| posted on 29/10/06 at 03:41 AM |
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I am in absolute awe at your metalworking skills. Thank you for recreating such a classic racer, but with a bit of modern engine technology. For the
moment, any suspension criticism is irrelevant. As an engineering student, I built a few formula-style racecar suspensions and can admit that
I'm nowhere near mastering it. There's a lot to learn, just be patient.
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kb58
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| posted on 29/10/06 at 05:23 AM |
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I'm having trouble understanding who this is about. Dick's getting pats on the back, is it him? With the vague hints, taunts, indirections
and labelings, it's hard to tell who you're talking about. Steve, if it's me, be a good chap and take it off-line.
We discuss sports car design here. Saying you won't participate because you might get your feelings hurt is unfortunate. However, let the rest
of us get back to what you keep reminding various forums that you won't participate in. Okay, so start "not participating."
You seem to be trying to make this a personal issue - suspension design is about physics, not childish taunts. Whether or not you are unhappy with
comments here is up to you. Physics is what determines if your car makes it around a turn -- not "feelings".
[Edited on 10/29/06 by kb58]
Mid-engine Locost - http://www.midlana.com
And the book - http://www.lulu.com/shop/kurt-bilinski/midlana/paperback/product-21330662.html
Kimini - a tube-frame, carbon shell, Honda Prelude VTEC mid-engine Mini: http://www.kimini.com
And its book -
http://www.lulu.com/shop/kurt-bilinski/kimini-how-to-design-and-build-a-mid-engine-sports-car-from-scratch/paperback/product-4858803.html
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Dick Bear
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| posted on 29/10/06 at 07:30 AM |
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Please God... let this end now!!!!!!
What began a short 12-months ago as a dream has in the last 4-weeks become a personal nightmare. My dream has become an embarrassment resulting in
personal attacts between international strangers on at least three different web sites that I'm aware of.
I simply can't believe it!! There are enough real, life threatening, issues in our world already to even entertain adding a new one which, in
the scope of the world we live, doesn't amount to one ounce of importance.
Please, for the sake of everyone stop this madness.
We're all educated, creative and civilized individuals who deserve and expect better behavior from others as well as ourselves.
Please gt58 (Kurt) let it die. I've agreed with your assessment in my design. IT IS WRONG, DANGEROUS AND IF ALLOWED TO CONTINUE POSSIBLY LIFE
THREATENING. I have heard your cries loud and clear and I've promised to address the problem as outlined by you. You are right!! There is no
argument about the mistake I committed. Please allow this debate to end.
PLEASE!
Dick Bear
www.marketpointproductions.com
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Fred W B
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| posted on 29/10/06 at 04:23 PM |
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Dick
I, for one, am vastly impressed with what you have accomplished in such a short time frame. I am sorry that you publishing you efforts has caused
distress to you. I am sure that the majority of people on here understand that not everyone can get everything right the first time.
Taking the comments on board, and using that to improve what you are doing is what this is all about.
Regards
Fred W B
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JoelP
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| posted on 29/10/06 at 04:42 PM |
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I bet trev would be interested to see the bodywork.
That last posted picture does look awesome. 
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