ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 23/11/07 at 09:32 PM |
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K Series help required
Hi All
My brother-in-law has an old Rover 200 coupe with a 1.8 VVC engine in it. The other day he drove through a load of standing water and it ground to a
halt.
Thinking it was electrics he tried restarting it but although it turned over, it wouldnt start. The AA man came out and diagnosed a snapped cam belt
due to the engine ingesting water! Seems slightly odd to me that it still turned over afterwards so Ive offered to have a look at the weekend, I
thought maybe its possible the cambelt had actually snapped due to some debris thrown up in the water rather than the engine actually taking in
water?
However, if it has indeed swallowed water, whats the realistic chance ofthis being only top end damage and being fixed with a replacement head?
Also is there a reliable method I could use to diagnose if it has damaged the bottom end without stripping the whole engine down? I thought maybe whip
the head off and inspect the piston crowns and also measure each one at TDC to ensure no rods are bent, but with the K Series engine you've
obviously got the delicately seated liners which I presume will move if the engine is turned over without the head on?
If it does turn out to need just a replacement head, how difficult is it to do compared to other head changes, are there any special tools needed
(particularly for the VVC stuff)?
cheers
Chris
[Edited on 23/11/07 by ChrisGamlin]
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TimC
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| posted on 23/11/07 at 09:41 PM |
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I would imagine that K-series heads are readily available(!)... just read-up on what gaskets etc to use.
I think there was a PPC guide a few months back.
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 23/11/07 at 10:06 PM |
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Evidently the VVC isn't so readily available, and thus far he's only seen one recon advertised (on ebay!) for £500! 
Looking at this description it looks a bloomin complicated job anyway
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spannerman
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| posted on 23/11/07 at 10:43 PM |
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I have loads of vvc bits, post what you need I may be able to help
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 23/11/07 at 10:45 PM |
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Cheers, I think its most likely to either be completely toast, or at best need a new head. The VVC (very very complicated) is a bit of an unknown to
me though!
As a cheap fix, does anyone know if its possible to put a standard 1.8 K head on in its place (keeping the stock VVC ECU etc), or is that more work
rather than less?
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 24/11/07 at 12:00 AM |
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The VVC head is hardly any more complex than a standard head to replace, as long as you are not stripping the head down. If you do you will have a
lot of fun trying to get the VVC mechanisms synchronised and timed up correctly!
Standard head will physically fit, but won't work with the stock VVC ECU as the later expects to see a cam phase sensor and a couple of solenoid
valves which the standard engine does not have.
You are correct that the liners are floating, but you can get clamps to hold them in place whilst the head is off if you need to turn the engine
over.
A snapped belt on a K series is almost certainly going to bend some valves, but it might be worth just fitting a new cam belt (there are two on the
VVC, the short one is unlikely to have snapped) on, checking the engine rotates freely by hand, and then doing a compression check.
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britishtrident
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| posted on 24/11/07 at 08:54 AM |
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The cam belt(s) failure diagnosis sounds iffy.
The first thing to is check the imobiliser has disarmed --- red LED between the tacho & speedo should go out.
But before doing anything else check the cam belt out out to avoid doing any avoidable damage.
However if the cambelt is brocken the result is bent valves usually about 6 valves need replaced. Most times the pistons don't get damaged, but
the head can but usually any damage is only cosmetic and can be smoothed over.
First step is obviously to line up the timing marks (should line up at 1/2 stroke),
The VVC mechanism is pretty delicate and failure is not unknown resulting in only one cam being driven so lift the cam cover to check both cams are
turning, and look for any obvious damage or stuck valves/tappets.
Remove spark plugs and have a look down plug holes --- not easy.
A compression test will reveal any valve gear damage however as we know the engine is free to turn it might save time to first check out the engine
is getting a spark and fuel.
(1) Try resetting the bump cut of switch -- located behind centre console on pasenger side below radio & heater controls.
(2) Check for spark using old plugs ---
(3) Check injectors are getting pulsed using NOID test lamp.
(4) Using sensitive volt meter or an osilloscope check the output from crank sensor and cam phase sensor.
If it were mine the prime suspect would be the flywheel sensor --- on Rover they are quite delicate and are located low on the engine at the
back.
[Edited on 24/11/07 by britishtrident]
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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oadamo
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| posted on 24/11/07 at 08:59 AM |
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dont trust what the aa man said.they told me mine had droped a valve. and it turned out to be the head gasket.
adam
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rusty nuts
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| posted on 24/11/07 at 09:26 AM |
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Might save a lot of work if you can take the plugs out and use a long screwdriver/ welding rod to "measure" the distance to the top of the
pistons? 1&4 and 2&3 should be the same. After driving through water it may have suffered a hydraulic lock and bent a rod (common problem when
driving through floods)
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jollygreengiant
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| posted on 24/11/07 at 10:08 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by rusty nuts
Might save a lot of work if you can take the plugs out and use a long screwdriver/ welding rod to "measure" the distance to the top of the
pistons? 1&4 and 2&3 should be the same. After driving through water it may have suffered a hydraulic lock and bent a rod (common problem when
driving through floods)
If a con rod was bent then the likely-hood of being able to turn the engine over would be nil.
Beware of the Goldfish in the tulip mines. The ONLY defence against them is smoking peanut butter sandwiches.
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coozer
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| posted on 24/11/07 at 10:56 AM |
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The belt snapped on mine as I pulled away from lights. Just stopped, no drama. Dodgy water pump was the root cause!
12 valves bent and 2 snapped with broken guides,
"Can I have a new head please?"
"Certainly sir, that'll be £400 please"
Doh!
Steve
1972 V8 Jago
1980 Z750
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 24/11/07 at 11:02 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by coozer
The belt snapped on mine as I pulled away from lights. Just stopped, no drama. Dodgy water pump was the root cause!
12 valves bent and 2 snapped with broken guides,
"Can I have a new head please?"
"Certainly sir, that'll be £400 please"
Doh!
Steve
He's been quoted £500 for a recon VVC head, where was that price from?
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 24/11/07 at 11:11 AM |
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Cheers for the other advice guys, sounds like I need to get down there and have a preliminary scouting session to see if the original diagnosis is
correct or not.
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rusty nuts
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| posted on 24/11/07 at 12:11 PM |
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Clive, I have had a couple of K series engines, both running,albeit roughly, that had badly bent rods.
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britishtrident
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| posted on 24/11/07 at 02:47 PM |
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Replacing bent valves in a K16 isn't that bad a job just a bit of a fiddle, Even some valve guide damage can be got away with -- I know of one
214sli that has been runing around fro 4 years with a chunk out one of the guides as the owner wouldn't shell out for a specialist repair.
---
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 24/11/07 at 03:46 PM |
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Does the VVC stuff not make it more complicated then? From what Ive read here and elsewhere you don't want to touch the VVC gubbins unless you
really have to because its a PITA to get it back together correctly? Can you do valves without interfering with that?
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 24/11/07 at 10:11 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ChrisGamlin
Does the VVC stuff not make it more complicated then? From what Ive read here and elsewhere you don't want to touch the VVC gubbins unless you
really have to because its a PITA to get it back together correctly? Can you do valves without interfering with that?
You have to remove the VVC mechanism to take the cams (and then the valves) out. It's not massively complicated to be honest, but there is a
VVC assembly each end of the head, connected by a shaft with gear on the end which in turn is controlled by a rack and pinion mechanism. All these
parts have to be synchronised properly, and there are no marks to line up.
I helped my dad change the VVC assemblies on his MGF, and I simply moved the rack and pinion to one end of it's range and took digital photos of
each part of the assembly showing the relationship between the teeth. Reassembling was tricky, you need a few more arms ideally, but it worked first
time.
It's a very interesting solution for variable valve timing though, I was quite impressed with it's relative simplicity considering te job
it does (it extends cam duration significantly by speeding up and slowing down the cam as it turns, it doesn't just change the base timing).
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 25/11/07 at 06:52 PM |
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Right, Ive been down this afternoon to have a quick look. The story is that it wasnt really a very big puddle, he said it wasnt like driving through a
ford or flood water, its the type of puddle you wouldnt normally think twice about driving through. The other relevent thing is that because
he'd washed his re-useable air filter the day before and it was still drying, he'd left the intake pipe off completely so it was breathing
straight into the throttle body intake at the back of the engine. Although this isn't really wise and its possible the engine has digested
something more solid, I can't really see how very much water could get all the way up there and get sucked in, so Im now even less convinced
that water caused the failure.
Anyway, having had a look, the cambelt has definitely snapped, looks quite a clean break with the rest in fairly good condition rather than one thats
been on there too long and cracked/perished. However, inside the cambelt shroud was quite dirty / oily (not fresh) which I wasnt expecting, so Im
thinking maybe the belt has become contaminated and that's caused the failure, and its just coincidental that it snapped whilst going through
some water.
I took the cam cover off and all looks well in there, I could turn the exhaust cam with a socket so turning that and the second inlet cam (driven off
the secondary cambelt) without anything sticking or locking up, and I couldnt see any damage on any of the cam lobes or followers etc.
I also took the plugs out and they're undamaged with nothing untoward visible with a torch down in the combustion chambers.
So we're not really sure what to do next. The oil /gunge in the cambelt area is a concern because Im thinking perhaps the crankshaft oil seal
might have gone, or possibly oil seals on the end of the camshafts?
I think the best bet is to get the head off so we'll know for certain what the damage is and hopefully rule out it having swallowed anything,
then probably get hold of a recon head and put that on as the valve stem seals are also evidently on their way out as it smokes a bit.
Any further comments / suggestions chaps?
cheers
Chris
[Edited on 25/11/07 by ChrisGamlin]
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zxrlocost
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| posted on 25/11/07 at 07:02 PM |
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chris by the time hes bought this and that I would just buy a complete second hand vvc engine and drop it in I deff wouldnt throw loads of money into
it as sadly rovers are worth didly !
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 25/11/07 at 07:24 PM |
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Yeh that was another thought, the thing is although he realises the car is only worth maybe a grand, it's bodywork is in good nick and he doesnt
think he'd get another in as good condition so is prepared to spend some money to get it running again.
The thing is buying a complete second hand engine is a bit of an unknown, given how often the head gaskets go on some engines Id be wary of picking
one up that had been taken out for that very reason, or one that had gone a couple of times in the past and so was susceptible to going again.
Also we're quite limited with facilities because its currently outside a friend's house with no garage etc to get it under cover, so that
complicates matters somewhat.
Chris
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david walker
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| posted on 25/11/07 at 08:45 PM |
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Thing is if the belts gone it will have some bent valves so head will need to come off anyway. It'll cost nothing to remove it so just take it
off and see.
Cam seals can be a problem on these engines and the replacements sold with your head gasket set will be rotational (needing to be fitted in right
postions), as seals had been a long standing problem. Crank seals very much less so.
I know from his previous postings that Britishtrident is knowledgeable, particularly with Rovers and as he says replacing valves is no big deal and
not particularly expensive if you do it yourself.
Fitting a secondhand engine is all well and good if you know it's good and as you have recognised many/most aren't. Further to that the
1800 units are very hard to find at sensible prices.
Get on with it and do it yourselves!
Dave Walker, Race Engine Services - 07957 454659 or 01636 671277
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 1/12/07 at 07:19 PM |
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Update 
Been down again this afternoon and taken the head off, there's at least 4 valves bent but none have snapped or done any piston damage from what
I can see.
We set the crank on its timing marks before we took the head off so we don't have to move it again to put a cambelt on, and it turned over quite
easily. Also, having taken the head off, I measured the height of the pistons with a vernier and the centre two pistons are exactly the same height
above the deck, as are pistons 1 and 4, which is encouraging so it looks like there's no bottom end damage.
Some things I noticed though, how the hell do you actually drain the coolant out of the engine?! The manual says disconnect the bottom hose but
considering the bottom hose goes up over to the back of the engine to the water pump, with a high point roughly level with the cams, that method is
never going to drain out all the water! I also took off a hose on the back of the water pump which helped a bit, but there's still loads of
water left in the block which has nowhere to drain out from. No wonder these things suffer from cooling issues, the water in the bottom of the engine
must nearly be stagnant!
Anyway, given that there's no apparent bottom end damage he's decided to invest in a recon head as his needs valve stem seals and
seemingly cam oil seals as well anyway.
Is there any nasty suprises fitting it all back on, assuming the VVC is all pre-set up by the reconditioning place which I believe it will be?
cheers
Chris
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britishtrident
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| posted on 1/12/07 at 08:08 PM |
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Some tricks to fitting K series heads.
I always reuse the old head bolts unless I have a definite reason not to.
Check the head bolts carefully --- clean them with kerosene, diesel or WD40 alow them to drip dry --- don't oil them when refitting.
Test the head bolts screw down fully before fitting the head (see Haynes manual)--- the threads can get damage. Personally I always run a hex die
nut down them to make sure the threads are clear.
Unless the liner heights are out of spec use the Freelander head gasket (its cheaper !) --- NB you don't need to use the Freelander strengthen
block ladder with this
Take great care with the initial torquing up of the head bolts it is critical --- always use a good low range torque wrench
.
Take great care to make sure the crank pulley and sprocket are correctly fitted fully tightened --- I always use a bit of Locite on both the bolt and
where the pulley and sprocket fit on the crank -- not unknown to find bottom pulley and sprocket rattling about onK series cranks.
Same goes for the cam drive sprocket -- check the roll pin is OK to reuse.
It it were mine I would remove the original thermostat and either fit a new one with a couple of small holes drilled in to act as by-pass/bleeder
holes or convert to the Rover PRT thermostat. Either of these mods help avoid head gasket failure due to "head shuffle" which can occur
if the engines is used hard from a cold start over a few hundred of cold start cycles.
After building up bleed the cooling system and pressure test.
[Edited on 1/12/07 by britishtrident]
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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britishtrident
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| posted on 1/12/07 at 08:17 PM |
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Other thing is don't trust the factory timing marks always check the engine is really at mid stroke by measuring down the plug holes. ie get 1
& 4 exactly equal to 2 & 3
[Edited on 1/12/07 by britishtrident]
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 1/12/07 at 09:19 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
Other thing is don't trust the factory timing marks always check the engine is really at mid stroke by measuring down the plug holes. ie get 1
& 4 exactly equal to 2 & 3
[Edited on 1/12/07 by britishtrident]
Ah thats a good point which I meant to ask actually, because they weren't quite equal, 2 and 3 were a bit lower than 1 & 4.
So I should ignore the mark and get all 4 pistons the same height above the deck? I guess to do that Ive got to bolt the head back on though to stop
the liners moving when I turn the crank, which also means you can't use a vernier to accurately measure them. Can I just pop the old head on
with a few bolts to hold it in place or do I need to properly clamp it all down to specified torque just to move the crank a few degrees? 
Regarding the other points, the bolts are OK as long as they are within measurement spec, is that correct? Andy my bro-in-law was keen to buy new ones
simply because they weren't expensive and he'd rather be safe than sorry when buying new bits, but if there's a good reason to use
the old ones then we'll stick with those?
Also I haven't measured the liner heights yet as I forgot to put my feeler gauges in the toolbox, but they were all certainly just above the
deck height and seemingly by similar amounts judging from the highly technical fingernail test 
I will measure them properly of course but what is the difference between the two types of head gasket and how come you can use one but not the other
if the liners are out of spec?
cheers
Chris
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