ReMan
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| posted on 25/3/11 at 10:12 PM |
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Yes holes at front appears to tilt the hub bacward into castor, though it has been argued that this is not real castor.
\for bike engine 23 is probably a little high, depends on tyres.
15" proxes I like 18ps
www.plusnine.co.uk
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rb968
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| posted on 25/3/11 at 10:17 PM |
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Having now done a search it appears thats a hot topic. Will have a look tomorrow but I suspect mine are not offset.
I have never seen a photo of the wozsher?? adjustable wishbones but assume that by using rose joint they allow the top wishbone to be moved rearwards
within the existing mounts? Is an alternative to move the top wishbne mounts rearwards and adjust the wishbines to suit?
Oh and 15" wheels with Yoko Parada tyres (but pre-IVA so only driven briefly so far !)
Rich
[Edited on 25/3/11 by rb968]
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Hellfire
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| posted on 26/3/11 at 08:21 AM |
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You could modify your existing top wishbones for adjustable camber as shown in the picture below.
Phil
[img][/img]
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mad-butcher
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| posted on 26/3/11 at 09:20 AM |
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Another point no-one has mentioned is ....have the wishbones been fitted the right way round...if you look at hellfires picture you will see the legs
are longer at the front (probably not the right description, but I work nights and I'm tired)
as regards the comment about putting springs in the rack. the springs only compress on the last 1/2 a turn of full lock, mine was never tested on full
lock for sva it was just driven round the yard to test self centering, the only times in normal driving I've ever had to use nearly full lock
was Ramsey Hairpin and Governers Dip in the IOM.
tony
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whitestu
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| posted on 26/3/11 at 09:45 AM |
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From my experience it isn't that much to do with castor. I modified my top wishbones like Phil has done and have 6.5 degrees castor. As standard
it was 4.5 degrees.
It doesn't make that much difference to self centreing, though it does make some difference. However it does give a lot more steering feel.
Stu
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Neville Jones
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| posted on 26/3/11 at 11:14 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by snoopy
quote:
Originally posted by Neville Jones
Not your problem. Sale of Goods Act. Unfit for purpose.
Nev.
not a prayer self built car which you built yourself so only self to blame if you built it wrong as your all amatures not profesionals
That's a fairly feeble excuse to keep making unsuitable components, and flogging them to the trusting and unsuspecting public.
If you provided the wishbones, and the chassis with the wishbone mounts already welded on, it's YOUR problem.
I'm in a position to buy a kit at the moment, so look out, I just may be your next customer, really, the 'customer from hell',
waiting to take over your business through the courts. I've got more than enough people who'll front for me!
FIX THE SOURCE OF THE PROBLEM!!!
Your next, and final, post on this, should be to say,
'We have now taken the two hours necessary to remake the wishbone jig, and this problem should not be seen again.'
Cheers,
Nev.
[Edited on 26/3/11 by Neville Jones]
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mad4x4
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| posted on 26/3/11 at 11:26 AM |
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wozsher on here used to make replacement top bones for the indy
He has disappeared off of the planet  about 18months ago - Just as I was away to order a set.
I don't care what anybody at MK says there is a problem with self centering on an INDY with a ZETEC or a PINTO engine.
A few folk claim it's good but even when my tyres were 40+ psi the force was minimal. and yes it is set as per the MK
instructions...... 
[Edited on 26/303/11 by mad4x4]
Scot's do it better in Kilts.
MK INDY's Don't Self Centre Regardless of MK Setting !
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mad4x4
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| posted on 26/3/11 at 11:30 AM |
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Anyone got any draings showing how far the top mount has to move - Then at least someone could then make a jig.
Hell I may even it's not rocket science if we have the measurements. Could someone knock up a CAD Model
[Edited on 26/303/11 by mad4x4]
Scot's do it better in Kilts.
MK INDY's Don't Self Centre Regardless of MK Setting !
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Davegtst
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| posted on 26/3/11 at 11:32 AM |
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How does the Indy R compare to the Indy? They have different wishbones.
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mad-butcher
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| posted on 26/3/11 at 11:44 AM |
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I think the brackets need to be moved back about 12-15mm but if you look at the picture of phils it's not that easy as 15mm would cause the
front bracket to fall off the front frame suppose if you used 50 x 25 mm edge on you could move the front one, to move the very awkward rear upright
support would cause problems for the bottom wishbone mount, difficult to explain but if you look at the pic you should be able to see what I mean.
I believe the suspension on the R was redesigned to get rid of the problem and also the so called prob of rear camber going positive ? on full bump
tony
[Edited on 26/3/11 by mad-butcher]
[Edited on 26/3/11 by mad-butcher]
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whitestu
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| posted on 26/3/11 at 11:51 AM |
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I don't think the Indy bones are designed wrong - they have 4.5-5 degrees of castor as standard. Mine now has 6.5 degrees and self centreing is
improved but still not strong compared to a tintop.
Stu
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Richard Quinn
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| posted on 26/3/11 at 12:04 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Neville Jones
quote:
Originally posted by snoopy
quote:
Originally posted by Neville Jones
Not your problem. Sale of Goods Act. Unfit for purpose.
Nev.
not a prayer self built car which you built yourself so only self to blame if you built it wrong as your all amatures not profesionals
That's a fairly feeble excuse to keep making unsuitable components, and flogging them to the trusting and unsuspecting public.
If you provided the wishbones, and the chassis with the wishbone mounts already welded on, it's YOUR problem.
I'm in a position to buy a kit at the moment, so look out, I just may be your next customer, really, the 'customer from hell',
waiting to take over your business through the courts. I've got more than enough people who'll front for me!
FIX THE SOURCE OF THE PROBLEM!!!
Your next, and final, post on this, should be to say,
'We have now taken the two hours necessary to remake the wishbone jig, and this problem should not be seen again.'
Cheers,
Nev.
[Edited on 26/3/11 by Neville Jones]
Surely you wouldn't have MK on your shortlist given your views on the alleged short comings in terms of self centering? 
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snoopy
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| posted on 26/3/11 at 12:05 PM |
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quote:
I'm in a position to buy a kit at the moment, so look out, I just may be your next customer, really, the 'customer from hell',
waiting to take over your business through the courts.
[Edited on 26/3/11 by Neville Jones]
well luckally for me i dont work for mk so do what you like
but if i were mk i would not sell you anything not even a nut for a bolt just to be covered
and yes they have the right of refusal and mk have used this
i know i was there when mk himself made a guy unload his stuff and gave him his money back
if your beef is only self centering then dont buy one its not a legal requirement for a car
the iva says a degree of self centering which the mk has so it complies so its fit for purpose to me
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mrwibble
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| posted on 26/3/11 at 01:36 PM |
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sounds like someone needs a good s*ag.
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Mave
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| posted on 26/3/11 at 02:07 PM |
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I'm with Neville on this one. My Indy (Zetec) didn't self-center at all with the advised settings. Tried the dodgy ways to improve it
(strange toe/camber/tire pressure settings, spring on rack) but that didn't work well enough (and for sure didn't help the handling). In
the end I had the top wishbones modified to increase the caster. That worked. And was the only proper way to solve the issue. It's still not
self-centering brilliantly, but it is definately much better than before, and feels safer. And it didn't need any dodgy fixes to pass SVA.
And as stated before; the position of the hole in the mushroom adapter don't influence caster; caster is defined as the relative positions of
the upper and lower balljoints; they are not moving when you turn the mushroom. This is a very VERY common misconception.
For me, as an MK owner, it is disappointing that MK haven't tackled this minor modification. The MK is great value-for-money, but some minor
changes (like this caster issue or the rear suspension geometry) would really improve the product, without adding cost.
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mad4x4
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| posted on 26/3/11 at 02:12 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Mave
I'm with Neville on this one. My Indy (Zetec) didn't self-center at all with the advised settings. Tried the dodgy ways to improve it
(strange toe/camber/tire pressure settings, spring on rack) but that didn't work well enough (and for sure didn't help the handling). In
the end I had the top wishbones modified to increase the caster. That worked. And was the only proper way to solve the issue. It's still not
self-centering brilliantly, but it is definately much better than before, and feels safer. And it didn't need any dodgy fixes to pass SVA.
And as stated before; the position of the hole in the mushroom adapter don't influence caster; caster is defined as the relative positions of
the upper and lower balljoints; they are not moving when you turn the mushroom. This is a very VERY common misconception.
For me, as an MK owner, it is disappointing that MK haven't tackled this minor modification. The MK is great value-for-money, but some minor
changes (like this caster issue or the rear suspension geometry) would really improve the product, without adding cost.
You say you had the arms modified - what was the distance you moved the top joint back by?
Scot's do it better in Kilts.
MK INDY's Don't Self Centre Regardless of MK Setting !
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austin man
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| posted on 26/3/11 at 02:16 PM |
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The Indy R is fully adjustable and anyone Buying an Indy has the option to purchase different wishbones Fully rose jointed but for so many it is an
additional cost. As I mentioned mine centres okay so I dont have a problem so it would appear that some of us are doing something that others
arent.
I Think Neville likes to have a poke at MK any time something is posted which starts to take the thread away from what was first intended ie a
slagging off session rather than a productive "this is what I did ". If he has a problem with them then this should surely be taken up
with them personally. I cannot see what he seeks to get out of it unless he has a business gain to be made.
Let the forum get back to what its good at Helping not Hindering
Life is like a bowl of fruit, funny how all the weird looking ones are left alone
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 26/3/11 at 02:18 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mad4x4
You say you had the arms modified - what was the distance you moved the top joint back by?
Most people end up with the centre of the top joint 22 - 25mm behind the lower one. On my book locost this meant that the top joint ended up 15mm
further back from its original design (x-flow engined car).
And it does make a huge difference...
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mad4x4
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| posted on 26/3/11 at 02:19 PM |
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What about getting them commercially made and doing a group buy.
25 People needing 2 is 50 ARMS that would maybe interest a company
100 people needing 2 is 200 Arms ....
We all seem to have this problem!
Scot's do it better in Kilts.
MK INDY's Don't Self Centre Regardless of MK Setting !
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mad4x4
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| posted on 26/3/11 at 02:23 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by David Jenkins
quote:
Originally posted by mad4x4
You say you had the arms modified - what was the distance you moved the top joint back by?
Most people end up with the centre of the top joint 22 - 25mm behind the lower one. On my book locost this meant that the top joint ended up 15mm
further back from its original design (x-flow engined car).
And it does make a huge difference...
For the cortina HUB of 169mm high ( i don't have the measurement of the serria one) that works out as a caster of 8.4Deg if you base it on 25mm
back and 7.4 deg if it is 22mm back
[Edited on 26/303/11 by mad4x4]
Scot's do it better in Kilts.
MK INDY's Don't Self Centre Regardless of MK Setting !
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jacko
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| posted on 26/3/11 at 02:59 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mad4x4
What about getting them commercially made and doing a group buy.
25 People needing 2 is 50 ARMS that would maybe interest a company
100 people needing 2 is 200 Arms ....
We all seem to have this problem!
Wrong
mine are ok for self center so its not as you say
Very strange some are ok and some are not
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 26/3/11 at 03:43 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mad4x4
quote:
Originally posted by David Jenkins
quote:
Originally posted by mad4x4
You say you had the arms modified - what was the distance you moved the top joint back by?
Most people end up with the centre of the top joint 22 - 25mm behind the lower one. On my book locost this meant that the top joint ended up 15mm
further back from its original design (x-flow engined car).
And it does make a huge difference...
For the cortina HUB of 169mm high ( i don't have the measurement of the serria one) that works out as a caster of 8.4Deg if you base it on 25mm
back and 7.4 deg if it is 22mm back
[Edited on 26/303/11 by mad4x4]
Should have said that my figures were based on Cortina uprights - don't know the figures for Sierra ones. Those angles sound about right to me.
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austin man
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| posted on 26/3/11 at 04:24 PM |
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could it be that the top wishbones are fitted to the wrong sides ? aren't they handed but will still fit albeit incorrectly
Life is like a bowl of fruit, funny how all the weird looking ones are left alone
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indykid
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| posted on 26/3/11 at 05:17 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mad4x4
For the cortina HUB of 169mm high ( i don't have the measurement of the sierra one) that works out as a caster of 8.4Deg if you base it on 25mm
back and 7.4 deg if it is 22mm back
Just be aware that castor is from ball joint centre to ball joint centre, both vertically and horizontally.
Without further information on the ball joints, the setbacks you've calculated will be for the centre of the face of the taper on the upright.
If you use them for BJ setback, the angle will be less than your calculation
[Edited on 26/3/11 by indykid]
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procomp
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| posted on 26/3/11 at 09:16 PM |
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Hi
The same old debate yet again. Lol
Most do not understand what exactly castor does to create self centering. It's all to do with camber change when the front wheels are being
turned whilst cornering. So if you really want to understand why the MK's lack the feel that kits such as Westfields and Caterhams etc etc have
you need to go looking at the very basic geometry.
1. sit the car level with the drivers weight sat in the car. Measure the front camber.
2. now turn the front wheels and take catsor readings.
3. now whilst the wheels are turned simulate the car being turned into a corner with weight transfer. ( put a passenger in the car to simulate a bit
of chassis roll) and take new camber readings. Yep the camber goes in a direction that negates the geometry that the castor should influence
4. put the car up in the air with the rear chassis on axle stands. Leave the front chassis free to pivot on the jack in the center under the rad. Now
grab a front wheel and pull the bottom out and the top in by hand as if checking for wheel bearing play. Whilst doing this measure the chassis flex
between the rear bulkhead and the front chassis.
Now sit down and have a think about how all that pans out whilst cornering at speed with say 0.5G rather than just pulling and pushing the wheel by
hand. That will explain in basic terms as to why there is no real responce from the front end of the car. And also show that the very basic problem
with a lack of self centering is only scratching the surface of the problems.
Cheers Matt
[Edited on 26/3/11 by procomp]
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