Davegtst
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| posted on 27/3/11 at 01:10 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by austin man
The Indy R is fully adjustable and anyone Buying an Indy has the option to purchase different wishbones Fully rose jointed but for so many it is an
additional cost. As I mentioned mine centres okay so I dont have a problem so it would appear that some of us are doing something that others
arent.
I Think Neville likes to have a poke at MK any time something is posted which starts to take the thread away from what was first intended ie a
slagging off session rather than a productive "this is what I did ". If he has a problem with them then this should surely be taken up
with them personally. I cannot see what he seeks to get out of it unless he has a business gain to be made.
Let the forum get back to what its good at Helping not Hindering
No the Indy R is not fully adjustable. On the front only toe, camber (via the top ball joint) and the mushroom can be adjusted. On the rear only the
camber can be adjusted. Mk do sell rose jointed wishbones at an extra cost but i was advised against getting this on mine by MK as i was told it was
only really needed for track cars.
[Edited on 27/3/11 by Davegtst]
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mad4x4
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| posted on 27/3/11 at 01:48 AM |
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Right then - If so many have people have this problem & there are so many opinions lets get the facts, Get a drawing and mock up a set and try
it......
1) Has any one taken a stock MK Arm and swapped them over - Seem to be a lot of talk about wrong side - This will solve this one
2) Same thing has any one tried them Wrong way up ?
3) Has any one modified there stock MK arms to move the top point back - Results ?
4) Any one got a set of Wozhers arms - Results \
My basic idea forming at the moment is - if the Wozher Arms solve the problem - Let try and get them copied.
We have guys on here that can engineer a whole chassis surley we can re-engineer a top arm!
I'm stuck with the stock stuff from MK and tried Springs and changing mushrooms etc. I gave up and drive it with out self centreing but it is
a PITA, I'm also to far north to "take it to MK"
[Edited on 27/303/11 by mad4x4]
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A1
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| posted on 27/3/11 at 01:57 AM |
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ive not bothered to read 6 pages of things, but just adjust the mushrooms or get the rosejointed wishbones... self centering isnt that important, mine
never has too strongly, but drives perfectly
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Neville Jones
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| posted on 27/3/11 at 10:08 AM |
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All of you people looking to make new jigs and such, to fix your MK's, I feel for you.
BUT, THIS IS A FACTORY PROBLEM.
This problem has been around since the first day MK copied the Ron Champion book chassis, in their own unique and peculiar way. Many years ago.
With the attitude shown to customers, MK will not survive much longer. Simple fact of business.
FIX YOUR PROBLEMS AT SOURCE!
Don't expect the public/mugs who buy your products to fix what you know is wrong, and do nothing to rectify.
If this was an issue with a manufacturer, be it motor or washing machine, there would have been a recall and rectifications carried out.
As for buying an MK kit, I'd get my money back in court, and then one of the MK Glee Club will buy it for silly money, just because it's
an MK. 
Actually buying the kit? I wouldn't have any problem, and indeed, wouldn't even have to be there in person. And I'd bet that MK
would be all too keen to take my money quick smart, regardless of who I am.
I just may be your very next customer, maybe the second, tenth.....But I'm out there. Look out if you sell me the same thing that has caused the
problems.
A judge would take one look at this forum, and laugh MK's excuses out the door. Historic known problems not rectified by the manufacturer
aren't looked on too kindly.
First job tomorrow at MK should be to make new wishbone and chassis mounting jigs,would take less than half a day, and this issue wouldn't be
there. Particularly when I buy my next kit.
It would also show that you actually do care about your products, and the public who buy them, instead of the contempt and disinterest which you are
currently appearing to show.
Cheers,
Nev.
[Edited on 27/3/11 by Neville Jones]
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Davegtst
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| posted on 27/3/11 at 10:21 AM |
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Neville, seriously an MK is not going to be for you. I have had many other problems and so have loads of other customers and nothing gets done by MK.
If you are talking court action before you have even bought one then you will have a very long struggle and an unhappy experience building this kit.
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Neville Jones
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| posted on 27/3/11 at 10:47 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Davegtst
Neville, seriously an MK is not going to be for you. I have had many other problems and so have loads of other customers and nothing gets done by MK.
If you are talking court action before you have even bought one then you will have a very long struggle and an unhappy experience building this kit.
I've already got the jigs necessary to fix the problems. Shouldn't take more than three or four hours.
New top front wishbones, cut off all the front wishbone mounts and weld on new items in the correct position, cut out rear wishbone mounts and weld on
new items in correct position. (I'd make my own rear wishbones and uprights, afterwards, as well.))
Then finish car and sell to MK Glee club member.
I'd make the alterations AFTER the court case. 
Cheers,
Nev.
The most polite and unassuming CUSTOMER FROM HELL is out there, just waiting for his opportunity.
Will MK now fix the source of the problems? That's the big question! Will only take but a few hours, and a little thought, and more than a
little willingness..
[Edited on 27/3/11 by Neville Jones]
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indykid
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| posted on 27/3/11 at 03:00 PM |
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Hang on Neville, after all this you spout about court cases, the parts are fit for service. I did nothing special with mine and I get adequate
self centreing, as do the majority of others. There are fleets of MKs on the road, all having passed SVA, so the product must be fit for service.
Ergo, the parts are fit and you have no complaint under the sale of goods act based on the wishbones. Just because the parts could be modified to give
better self centreing and an overall better product, that's your decision when you buy the kit. If you want to take them to small claims, all
you'll do is waste your £30.
I'm not sure quite what planet you exist on, but you come across as an ill informed mardy kid. We all know the Indy spaceframe could be stiffer
since it's missing any engine bay bracing for a start, that the square to round panel joint could have been eradicated yonks ago and that the
front legs of the cage do not meet MSA regulation, but if you don't like any of these things, simply find a product you agree with, take your
money elsewhere and STFU.
Do you beat on to all your friends like a broken record about how tesco own brand beans are rubbish because the sauce isn't as nice as heinz?
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Neville Jones
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| posted on 27/3/11 at 04:28 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by indykid
Hang on Neville, after all this you spout about court cases, the parts are fit for service. I did nothing special with mine and I get adequate
self centreing, as do the majority of others. There are fleets of MKs on the road, all having passed SVA, so the product must be fit for service.
Ergo, the parts are fit and you have no complaint under the sale of goods act based on the wishbones. Just because the parts could be modified to give
better self centreing and an overall better product, that's your decision when you buy the kit. If you want to take them to small claims, all
you'll do is waste your £30.
I'm not sure quite what planet you exist on, but you come across as an ill informed mardy kid. We all know the Indy spaceframe could be stiffer
since it's missing any engine bay bracing for a start, that the square to round panel joint could have been eradicated yonks ago and that the
front legs of the cage do not meet MSA regulation, but if you don't like any of these things, simply find a product you agree with, take your
money elsewhere and STFU.
Do you beat on to all your friends like a broken record about how tesco own brand beans are rubbish because the sauce isn't as nice as
heinz?
As a matter of fact I do.  But Tesco's beans don't make me f*rt so much, so overall they score well!
As for the rest of that statement, more fuel for the fire. Keep the faults coming, they can only help with more documented known problems.
MK, and every other kit manufacturer should be addressing known historical faults, and fixing them. Not just keep turning out the tat, and relying on
Joe Bloggs the builder to fix the problems prior to IVA. Then hiding behind the 'Amateur Built' tag to say 'it's not my
problem'.
If I do work for someone, it's my work, for life. If it goes wrong because of something I did or made, I fix it. I don't shrug my
shoulders and say, 'Not my problem, you bought it, I've got your money, go away and fix it yourself.'
Nev.
The other current thread on this shows that this is, indeed, a problem.
But some say that they have had no problems with self centering, A person would have to wonder if this is an intermittent problem in manufacturing.
Maybe the wishbone mounts, and maybe even the wishbones, are not positioned/fabricated using proper jigs for repeatability?
This would explain a lot, if the mounts, and the wishbones, were sort of randomly positioned at the factory.
I've wondered this often, as I've straightened out the geometry on a few kit built cars, including those from Surrey and those from west
of Dudley.
Do MK use jigs? What are they made of? How are are they positioned for consistency, if used at all?
[Edited on 27/3/11 by Neville Jones]
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indykid
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| posted on 27/3/11 at 05:00 PM |
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It sounds to me like you need to fill your boots and release your own car. You could revolutionise the industry
I think it's what Matt's trying to do, but some may disagree with how he displays his product differentiation
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austin man
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| posted on 27/3/11 at 06:01 PM |
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for a car that is built not using Jigs then Ive got to say they are all pretty accurate. Had a look into your archive and dont see much going on for
such a seasoned proffesional. Sometimes you dont need beans especcially if your full of wind, dont suppose you have a friend on this forum that your
stepping in for.
Oh and by the way they do use jigs
It is agreed that the geometry could be better however you can buy the adjustable wishbones if you feel that strongly. Cant wait to see you perfectly
formed car when its completed I not that its a Locost but will be of epic proportions surely wen finishe with the handling characterisitcs of a
formula one car. Or are they a little flimsy and poorly designed.
Move on mate and get building your car and start to enjoy
[Edited on 27/3/11 by austin man]
Life is like a bowl of fruit, funny how all the weird looking ones are left alone
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Gordy
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| posted on 27/3/11 at 06:26 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by A1 self centering isn't that important, mine never has too strongly, but drives perfectly
Fair
enough A1, but is important to me, especially on track when trying to gather up oversteer neatly with a bit of help from the steering centering itself
when unwinding corrective lock instead of it feeling dead in my hands, making it more enjoyable to drive on limit instead of being a handful. People
seem to be getting very defensive about their MK's, saying theirs drives fine or 'perfect' which i don't doubt, but the issue
i have is with my car and didn't start thread to be critical of MK's chassis design but to get some advice/tips on improving centering on
my car, not really looking for people me telling me it "isn't that important" or "mines drives perfectly", as it seems a
bit dismissive
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Hellfire
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| posted on 27/3/11 at 07:11 PM |
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As you're aware, the MK is/was designed around a Sierra single donor vehicle and whilst the Sierra uprights are suitable components, they are
not ideal and do have their limitations.
There are a few things you can do to improve the self centre characteristics. One of the things we looked at first was the steering rack. We removed
it, took it apart, cleaned it, re-greased and rebuilt it in accordance with the Haynes manual to ensure it was operating smoothly and efficiently. We
checked the steering rack for bump steer and shimmed the rack slightly to remove it. We had the dampers balanced by Protech and ensured that the
wishbones moved freely and weren't binding within their range of operation. Finally, we re-manufactured the top wishbones to incorporate
adjustability for castor.
To date, we have tried various settings and ultimately decided that 6 degrees was about as good as it gets with Sierra uprights fitted. Beyond that,
although self centreing improves, other traits begin to appear and the wheels would just flop from side to side which felt horrible.
One sure-fire way to improve your self centreing would be to fit a car engine. All that extra weight would help. We've just accepted that with a
front engined BEC using Sierra uprights, the self centreing is never gonna be that great.
Is our self centreing better than it was?............... Yes
Is it much better?.................................................. No
Was the result worth the effort?........................... Probably not but we now understand the limitations of the Sierra upright slightly
better.
Phil
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Gordy
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| posted on 27/3/11 at 07:35 PM |
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i'm not expecting saloon car centering, just looking for an improvement on what iam getting at the moment which is nowt, thanks for the
'summary' Hellfire
[Edited on 27/3/11 by Gordy]
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