sgraber
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| posted on 25/2/04 at 04:56 PM |
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Best FWD drivetrain for a middy?
This of course is a 'theoretical' question for me 'cause I'm already happily married to a 4AGE. But as my real wife says
"It doesn't matter where you get your appetite, as long as you eat at home." 
So just like talking about pretty women that I can't have, I am wondering what type of FWD drivetrain would look and perform the best in the
back of my little Middy.
Issues such as power, expense to increase power, weight, fitment and junkyard availablity are all open to discussion. 
My thought is that the WRX Boxer engine would be a fine choice. Low CG, compact and easily upgraded in power. However, they are expensive and
difficult to find in the boneyard. I would also have to redesign the rear suspension of my car to accomodate the transaxle in addition to welding the
rear output to convert it into 2wd.
The Nissan SR20DET would be a good choice although once again, too expensive to fall into the 'Locost' category and not too many
available.
The Toyota 4AGZE is a fine little engine. If the supercharger is replaced with a turbo, it is capable of some astounding HP figures. Hard to find
anymore these days because it seems that every Drifting driver and his brother are buying up the old RWD Toyotas and dropping these engines in for
power...
The Toyota 3SGTE is a great choice too. More and more showing up in the junkyards, but still expensive...
Honda? Too expensive IMHO.
Ford? Focus drivetrain sounds good, but still too expensive?
Anyone care to contribute their knowledge/opinion to the list? Something I haven't thought of?
Graber
Steve Graber
http://www.grabercars.com/
"Quickness through lightness"
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Mave
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| posted on 25/2/04 at 07:35 PM |
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Audi 1.8T. 330 bhp seems to be "relatively" easy to achieve.
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Alan B
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| posted on 25/2/04 at 07:47 PM |
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Steve, some nice supercharged V6's in domestic FWD GMs...can't be too expensive.....plus I think they come with Getrag 5 speed which is
pretty robust.....
Lots of info. from the Fiero guys.
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sgraber
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| posted on 25/2/04 at 08:00 PM |
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Oooh Audi. Yessss. But pricey!
Alan, aren't those USA lumps pretty heavy for their power output? Compared to some of the Jap stuff?
Steve Graber
http://www.grabercars.com/
"Quickness through lightness"
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Alan B
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| posted on 25/2/04 at 08:55 PM |
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Damn Steve....I'm getting all the wrong answers today..
I would say yes, they were heavier than the engines you mentioned, but mainly through being V6's rather than inline 4's....and their
specific power outputs aren't stellar..........but.......
plentiful and cheap....
At least 240HP stock
http://www.gm.com/automotive/gmpowertrain/engines/gmpow/l67.htm
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Fatboy Dave
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| posted on 25/2/04 at 09:00 PM |
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quote:
Ford? Focus drivetrain sounds good, but still too expensive?
What about the Mondeo? Same engine and gearbox after all?
New Duratechs are putting out 190bhp just with fitting throttle bodies. Means there's potential there.
Current Mondeos can be had for <500 with an MoT. There's a free 1.8 Estate in my local paper tonight...
[Edited on 25/2/04 by Fatboy Dave]
Dave
Stop the planet, I want to get off
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Alan B
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| posted on 25/2/04 at 09:03 PM |
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Steve...for Mondeo read Contour...
Dave, yes good choice..plenty of them here...
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Alan B
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| posted on 25/2/04 at 09:08 PM |
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Steve, www.car-part.com shows 13 pages of Ex Contour Zetecs, and 7 pages of Duratechs...
Worth considering?
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sgraber
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| posted on 25/2/04 at 09:12 PM |
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Aha, yes. 240HP. That's substantial.
I wonder... (he says; wondering out loud...) what is the most bang for buck drivetrain out there? In stock form, suitable for transplatation into
lightweight middy chassis... Are we immediately looking into the V6's? Chevy/Ford? What about some of the Korean automakers? I don't hear
much about those drivetrains. Is that because they are crap? I would think that a Hyundai Tiburon V6 would make a good donor....
Steve Graber
http://www.grabercars.com/
"Quickness through lightness"
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Piledhigher
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| posted on 25/2/04 at 09:27 PM |
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Why not use a 3.5L vq35de (or older 3L, vq30de) nissan maxima. Very strong engine, 260 hp in 3.5L version.
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Fatboy Dave
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| posted on 25/2/04 at 09:52 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan B
Steve...for Mondeo read Contour...
Dave, yes good choice..plenty of them here...
<slap>
Silly me, our cousins from driving-on-the-wrong-side land
I believe the Contour and all sorts of other Ford fair (Taurus?) got the Duratech V6 (the first one)? Not only in 2.5, but three litre form too. Now,
we got the Mondeo ST200, that gave 200bhp from its 2.5 V6.
Economies of scale, how many of these puppies did Henry stamp out over the pond?
Ideal IMHO. Cheap, easily available, powerful, , and three quarters of the correct compliment of cylinders
Dave
Stop the planet, I want to get off
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Mark Allanson
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| posted on 25/2/04 at 09:55 PM |
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Totally against the trend, I would want a very lightweight engine, with a moderate power output, I used to have a Fiat panda with a 70BHP FIRE engine,
only 999cc but GREAT fun. I could pick up the engine from the bench and attach it to the hoist by hand!
A different driving technique is required, you tend to plan overtaking moves rather than just hit the loud pedal and fly.
It would (will?) be very cheap to build, probably using all the engine/box/suspension, just X19 calipers to provide the handbrake, and a double
wishbone setup at the front.......
.... must finish the locost first!
If you can keep you head, whilst all others around you are losing theirs, you are not fully aware of the situation
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sgraber
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| posted on 25/2/04 at 09:57 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Piledhigher
Why not use a 3.5L vq35de (or older 3L, vq30de) nissan maxima. Very strong engine, 260 hp in 3.5L version.
Oooh - That's a great engine, (Won all kinds of awards for best engine, etc) but I think it's out of my price range...  Also, was there
a FWD version of that? and a 5 speed?
I am seriously thinking about that Hyundai V6, 190Hp, it comes with a 6 speed manual... mmmm.
Then there's the Suzuki Swift... But I think the hi-po version uses a 4age... hehe good engine.
[Edited on 2/25/04 by sgraber]
Steve Graber
http://www.grabercars.com/
"Quickness through lightness"
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JoelP
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| posted on 25/2/04 at 10:00 PM |
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not very cheap, but i do like peugeots 3.0 v6 from the 406 range, seems to vary from car to car quite a lot, some have flat spots and some pull like a
tart, but 197bhp in old form i believe. probably weighs a lot though...
Beware! Bourettes is binfectious.
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andyps
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| posted on 25/2/04 at 10:02 PM |
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Not much use to you in the US of A but over here you could use the Rover T16 engine and box out of a Rover 800 Vitesse / 600Ti / 200 turbo.
Cheap to buy, capable of 220 bhp with minimal cost or modification, and 250bhp plus with a bit of money. Might even have one for sale soon
Andy
An expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less
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Piledhigher
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| posted on 25/2/04 at 10:38 PM |
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The Nissan Maxima came with a 5 speed. You should be able to get a complete engine/tranny combo for $1.5K. Not locost, but a great combo.
Cory
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Fatboy Dave
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| posted on 25/2/04 at 11:09 PM |
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quote:
Then there's the Suzuki Swift... But I think the hi-po version uses a 4age... hehe good engine.
A Suzuki with a Toyota engine!
The hi-po version of the Swift is the 1300cc G13B engine. Sweeeeet little screamer, and eminently turbochargeable
Dave
Stop the planet, I want to get off
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pbura
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| posted on 25/2/04 at 11:40 PM |
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Mitsubishi 3.0 liter? Plenty of these laying around! Admittedly not one of the greats, but any port in a storm...
Pete
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TheGecko
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| posted on 26/2/04 at 02:31 AM |
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Steve,
I like Kurt B's choice of the Honda VTEC drivetrain. In a mid-engined layout the reverse rotation is a non-issue. You could have a chassis
designed by 'top Eastern European engineer" and suspension poking through the hood and 1.5" of suspension travel and....ow, owww,
stop hitting me. OK, maybe the Attack is a bad example
The Subaru motor's are nice (particularly the low CofG) but the packaging is all wrong length and width wise for me and, as you say, the AWD
needs to be disabled.
The new Toyota ZZ motors are all alloy and quite light for their power. The 2ZZ-GE as used in the current Celica and Corolla Sportivo would be my
choice if I was starting from scratch right now. Still pricey but dropping all the time. I was quoted AU$4,500 6 months ago for a 2002 Celica front
clip, complete with engine, 6-speed box, suspension, instruments etc. Some hunting at the insurance auctions might turn one up for a little less.
This, of course, is also the drivetrain of the current MR-Spyder and, now, the Lotus Elise.
The 2.3 litre four in our Mazda 6 has bags of torque and a wonderful, throaty induction/exhaust note when pushed. Transplanting it into a middy would
mean I could fix the gear change by stiffening the cross gate action too. Might stop me getting 1st when I'm trying for 2nd to 3rd in a
hurry!
Going bigger, Toyota has a few nice V6's but, if I wanted to 'up-size' my happy meal I'd look at the Mitsubishi Magna
(Diamante in the rest of the world I think). Four cam 3500 V6, available with a nice 5-speed or TipTronic style 4-speed auto. Very common car here
so could be relatively inexpensive although I've never actually priced one as a donor.
Hope this provides some food for thought anyway. With at least 70% (at a guess) of cars sold now being FWD there's an almost endless variety of
potential donors.
Dominic
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violentblue
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| posted on 26/2/04 at 05:33 AM |
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I am fond of the 4agze, swapped a jspec one into a FWD corolla this last summer, was definatly fun < check out pics of the
swap and some burn out video's>
I'm more partial to german motors myself, 2.0l 16v VW engine would be my choice.
a few pics of my other projects
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Noodle
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| posted on 26/2/04 at 07:17 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by sgraberWhy not use a 3.5L vq35de (or older 3L, vq30de) nissan maxima. Very strong engine, 260 hp in 3.5L version.
Oooh - That's a great engine, (Won all kinds of awards for best engine, etc) but I think it's out of my price range... Also, was there
a FWD version of that? and a 5 speed?
Maxima was FWD only (on these shores anyway) so they sold about 5.
<separate rant>Never ceases to amaze me how the non-premium brands pump out limo-barges that are FWD that never sell. The only Cheapo limo
barges that ever sold well are the Scorpio and Omega, both RWD. </separate rant>
Cheers,
Neil
Your sort make me sick
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Liam
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| posted on 26/2/04 at 08:03 PM |
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I am the proud owner of a gorgeous 3 litre Alfa Romeo V6 engine complete with manual box, driveshafts, all ancilliaries and electrics, suspension,
struts, brakes, hubs and the subframe to mount it.
All aluminium, 192bhp standard and up to 230 for later 24v Cloverleaf versions. Nicely tunable too. Best part? It says 'Olio' on the
oil filler cap - can't beat italian exotica.
Cost me £200.
Next best option is of course the 2.7 Honda V6 from the Rover 827's. Almost perfect and almost free.
Liam
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suparuss
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| posted on 26/2/04 at 09:36 PM |
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not all the audi's are expensive, you can get a full 20v straight 5 coupe for about £400 to £1000 depending on condition, so an engine by its
self cant be expensive. this engine does 172bhp in standard tune, and its only a 2.3 so- hammer on some bigger injectors, tune the computer, pus all
the normal stuff like port the heads, lighten fly wheel and all that, possibly stick on a turbo and intercooler and you should end up with plenty of
power. (the 2.2 liter one they put in the quattros does 220bhp in standard tune with a kkk turbo)
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