noc231073
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| posted on 2/3/11 at 01:54 AM |
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Play in suspension Rose joint
On my Indy r with inboard suspension as ye all know the link rod from the inboard suspension to the bottom wishbone has 2 10mm rosejoints .
Now the bottom rosejoint is connected to the wishbone with a 10mm bolt. Now my problem is the bracket on the wishbone is drilled 12.5mm .. Now you see
the problem
I have a large amount of play . Now I phoned Mk and they say just tighten it up and it should be ok. To me this seems unexceptable for any car not
alone a race car..
As no matter how tight you go on the nut the play will always be there and eventually ovaling the hole and ether the bracket failing or bolt shearing
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My reckoning I will have to remove the wishbone and reweld new brackets to my nicely powercoated wishbones ... And get them re powercoated
Any ideas!!!!!!!
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PSpirine
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| posted on 2/3/11 at 02:01 AM |
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What size is the rose joint? If it's 12mm then you're just using the wrong bolt. If it's a 10mm rose joint, then I wouldn't
want to cut off your brackets and reweld new ones on, I'd be tempted to get a thick and wide washer with a 10mm hole and weld that onto each
side of the bracket.
Alternatively, swap rosejoints for 1/2" ones?
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noc231073
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| posted on 2/3/11 at 02:12 AM |
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Yeah welding washers I had tought of but washers just would not have a close enough tolerance as a properly drilled bracket to the correct size .. I
can't chage to 1/2 as 1/2 Rose joint has a 1/2 thread which wouldn't thread into the 10mm thread on the rod .. That's what has
happened the rod are 10mm and the brackets are 1/2
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Theshed
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| posted on 2/3/11 at 05:49 AM |
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Could you not make, or have made a pair of top hat shaped spacers/washers? You would not need to weld them as they would be retained by the 10mm
bolt.
Alternative is as above to use a 1/2" rose joint. the drill for tapping is 11.5mm so you can just drill out your 10mm thread in the rod. again a
nice easy job in a lathe (everybody needs a lathe - go on you know you do......)
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angliamotorsport
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| posted on 2/3/11 at 07:09 AM |
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you could try using side spacers that have od 12mm and with 10mm id, so you slip the side spacer ito the 12mm hole, one into each side of the bracket,
then when the bolt is tightened it should be ok. May not be to everybody's cup of tea but it has worked for me.
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Richard Quinn
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| posted on 2/3/11 at 07:48 AM |
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These are all fair suggestions as to workarounds, bodges and more work but I would have to ask why it should be necessary to do this. A 10mm bolt
through a 12.5mm bracket with the advice to just tighten it up to clamp it isn't the best approach really is it, especially on suspension parts?
I appreciate that they would have to spend a bit more to have different Indy and Indy R lower wishbones or the push rod needs to be made so that it
will take a 12.5mm or 1/2" rose joint at the bottom end so there is a bit more cost and effort but if that's what it takes to provide a
proper solution, that's what should be done.
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snakebelly
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| posted on 2/3/11 at 08:03 AM |
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agree that all these suggestions are fine but the error is on the part of the manufacturer so if a part such as a top hat spacer is needed surely they
should be supplying it, sounds almost Tigerish!
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ashg
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| posted on 2/3/11 at 08:14 AM |
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just make new push rods that will take a bigger rose joint or retap your old push rods. the other solution is to weld a couple of thick penny washers
to the outside of the bracket
Anything With Tits or Wheels Will cost you MONEY!!
Haynes Roadster (Finished)
Exocet (Finished & Sold)
New Project (Started)
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 2/3/11 at 09:21 AM |
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Where on earth did the 12.5mm dimension come from? Too large for an M12 bolt, not large enough for a 1/2" and completely and utterly
inappropriate for an M10. Putting M12's into 1/2" holes is a bad enough bodge (cough, cough GTS), but to suggest that simply tightening
it up will be ok is appalling.
Is this a standard problem on the Indy R (i.e. have others suffered the same issue)? The only solution that wouldn't destroy the powder coating
is to machine some top hat bushes, but this simply shouldn't be necessary. MK should be sorting this out properly.
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MikeFellows
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| posted on 2/3/11 at 09:44 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
Where on earth did the 12.5mm dimension come from? Too large for an M12 bolt, not large enough for a 1/2" and completely and utterly
inappropriate for an M10. Putting M12's into 1/2" holes is a bad enough bodge (cough, cough GTS), but to suggest that simply tightening
it up will be ok is appalling.
Is this a standard problem on the Indy R (i.e. have others suffered the same issue)? The only solution that wouldn't destroy the powder coating
is to machine some top hat bushes, but this simply shouldn't be necessary. MK should be sorting this out properly.
No play at all on any of mine
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nick205
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| posted on 2/3/11 at 10:01 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Quinn
I appreciate that they would have to spend a bit more to have different Indy and Indy R lower wishbones or the push rod needs to be made so that it
will take a 12.5mm or 1/2" rose joint at the bottom end so there is a bit more cost and effort but if that's what it takes to provide a
proper solution, that's what should be done.
The Indy and Indy R lower front bones are different anyway AFAIK so it shouldn't be hard to get them right.
If other Indy R builders haven't experienced this problem then obviously something is wrong with the parts...perhaps an Indy M12 suspension
bracket was inadvertantly welded to an Indy R wishbone...? But then I'd expect (hope) the brakect would be jigged in place against the wishbone
with a bolt through it which should highlight the issue. Failing that, a simple QA check on the parts on completion should also highlight it. This
is just me thinking aloud by the way 
Could some other Indy R builders check their wishbones and pushrods and comment?
IMO MK have to take responsibility for resolving this and are shooting themselves in the foot by advising to just tighten it up 
[Edited on 2/3/11 by nick205]
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designer
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| posted on 2/3/11 at 10:07 AM |
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If MK told a customer to 'just tighten it up and it should be ok' they should not be making cars, this is totally unacceptable.
Also, is this a female rose joint held by a bolt?
If it is, one of the unwritten rules with suspension is never to use a female rose joint, always male.
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noc231073
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| posted on 2/3/11 at 10:16 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by nick205
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Quinn
If other Indy R builders haven't experienced this problem then obviously something is wrong with the parts...perhaps an Indy M12 suspension
bracket was inadvertantly welded to an Indy R wishbone...?
this is exactly what happened .....
but when i rang to explain this ...all i got was no way could this be possible .....
so i will sort this out myself as if i send it back to MK i will be waiting another 2 months to get them back...
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blakep82
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| posted on 2/3/11 at 11:34 AM |
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weld a washer on the bracket. thats what i did when i messed up mine. i mis understood how mine went together (1/2" rose joint, but 3/8"
bolt, wtf? ) there's like a side spacer that takes up the space in the rose joint, which i wasn't aware of. what i did was drill out the
bracket to 1/2", which was fine, but when i drilled the other side (going through the first hole) the first one ovalled out. welded washers on
and its a good tight fit now.
dont know if you can get a M10 with a 12mm hole... i know you get different sized UNF ones, i've got several 5/8" shaft, with 1/2 "
hole rose joints on my car
[Edited on 2/3/11 by blakep82]
________________________
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don't write OT on a new thread title, you're creating the topic, everything you write is very much ON topic!
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procomp
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| posted on 2/3/11 at 12:29 PM |
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Hi
Your not the first to have this problem and probably not the last either. Other one i know off gave up after receiving the same advice as yourself. He
had new rods made with new 1/2" unf joints to give a finer thread / better thread. Shouldn't really be using metric in a high loaded
application anyhow.
Cheers Matt
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TimC
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| posted on 2/3/11 at 01:11 PM |
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Yep, just get new push-rods made. There are numerous forum members who could do it if you don't have a good fabricator locally - off the top of
my head, and apologies to the many that I've missed-out - NS Dev, Flak Monkey and of course Matt (Procomp) above. I can also recommend Track
Developments (07977 948883.) Andy Bates could probably do it too.
I sympathise with you vis-a-vis your problems with a manufacturer. I've had a similar experience with another highly regarded firm. It's
extra-frustrating when you read that other people's cars are absolutely A1. I think it is often the case that consistency rather than
ability/achievable quality that is the issue.
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procomp
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| posted on 2/3/11 at 02:18 PM |
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Hi
Not me Please I'm over worked and running behind at the mo. 
I always send people with these sorts of jobs to Flak when I'm to busy to take the small jobs on. Never heard a bad report back so gets my
vote.
Cheers Matt
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loggyboy
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| posted on 2/3/11 at 03:09 PM |
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Laymans point of view: - surely if a bolt is tight, then its tight, and any play is irelvant, as if the bolt is free to move in the hole, then its
not tight enough, and bing a race car, this bolt should be checked regulalrly incase it is working loose. I can under stand its not ideal in case the
bolt did come loose, but with a new nylock and torqued correctly this shouldnt happen anyway.
<--------------- Prepares to be shot down in flames
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Johneturbo
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| posted on 2/3/11 at 03:30 PM |
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I guess it doesn't matter how tight you do the bolt up, if there is room for it to move up and down it will. the forces on the pushrod via the
suspension would be very high
also so wrong that you would need to have new rods made when you payed for them with your kit
Tim, who have you had bad dealings with? i thought you were loved by everyone!
[Edited on 2/3/11 by Johneturbo]
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TimC
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| posted on 2/3/11 at 03:53 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Johneturbo
Tim, who have you had bad dealings with? i thought you were loved by everyone!
[Edited on 2/3/11 by Johneturbo]
Ha, I have absolutely no idea what that is meant to mean - if only that were true. Actually that's not true either - I don't care that
much, although it's nice to be nice.
Anyway, rather disappointingly I'm not going to say. Unlike the case highlighted above, the firm concerned did go to some lengths to sort
things out - but you can't get back time and some things were never 100% right. Frustratingly, I honestly believe that my major issues were an
exception rather than the rule. What's more it was so long ago that it is almost certainly irrelevant to the buying decisions of others now.
No kiss'n'tell from me I'm afraid.
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noc231073
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| posted on 2/3/11 at 06:14 PM |
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thanks for all the info guys think ill just remake the rods.... ...
just delays me even more ....
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mads
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| posted on 2/3/11 at 07:07 PM |
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this post got me concerned so went into garage to look at my chassis. I've also got a 12.5mm hole but I have got a M12 bolt going through the
rose joint and the hole. There is a tiny bit of play in the bolt, but otherwise it fits fine. Are you sure they haven't just given you the wrong
rose joints?
We gain knowledge faster than we do wisdom!
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in
sideways, thoroughly used, totally worn out and loudly proclaiming... "f*ck, what a trip!"
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